Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2017 Forum

[cnk1220]

I can't understand why C is wrong in this question. I thought there's no double jeopardy if the conviction of the 2nd crime requires proof of an element not included in the other offense. In this case, felony murder would be all the elements of rape, plus a death right? Anybody able to explain?

[+] Spoiler

A man was set up on a blind date with a woman through a mutual friend. After the date, the man raped the woman; he was subsequently convicted of rape by a jury. After the trial, the woman’s injuries from the rape developed into an undetected hemorrhage that caused her death. A grand jury subsequently indicted the man for felony murder of the woman. The man filed a motion to dismiss the indictment because it violated his rights under the Double Jeopardy Clause.

Should the motion to dismiss be granted?

Answers:

Yes, because the second prosecution may result in multiple punishments for the same offense.
Yes, because the man has already been convicted of rape for his conduct.
You Selected: No, because rape and felony murder do not require proof of the same elements.
Correct Answer: No, because the man is being indicted for a more serious crime than his rape conviction.

I think C is wrong because of the way the answer is stated, it's saying no, his motion will be denied because rape and FM don't require proof of the same elements, but the call of the Q is more specifically asking about double jeopardy. DJ won't apply because now the man is being tried for murder of the woman which is different than the rape trial that he was earlier convicted for.

Although, arguably C is giving the reasoning why DJ won't apply because it's not the same crime, because FM requires an additional element that rape does not, I think the words "do not require proof of the same elements" is not specific enough, the language "requires an additional element that the other crime does not" would be more on point. So my guess is that C is not the best answer because of the way it's stated. This is deff. a poorly worded Q though- I did not incur anything with such close answers like this on the bar exam.

[uceoledinbdnrn]

^^^

Right. Put another way, it's not necessarily wrong, it's just not the best answer available. D encompasses the c answer, but adds on the crucial fact that it's a more serious crime.

Don't love that question though and I could easily see myself getting it wrong on the exam.

[star fox]

I think if the victim had died initially (before the trial), then double jeopardy would apply and the felony murder charge would be dismissed. The reason they can bring the murder charge here is the victim wasn't dead at the time of the rape trial. From Page 56 of Criminal Procedure outline

2) Occurrence of a necessary subsequent event
When jeopardy has attached with respect to a lesser included offense prior to the occurrence of an event necessary to establish the greater offense, the defendant may be subsequently tried for the greater offense.

[It goes on to give an example where a defendant is tried for battery, and the victim later dies and is tried for murder. This doesn't violate Double Jeopardy according to Diaz v. United States, 223 U.S. 442, 449 (1912). However, if he had been acquitted of the lesser offense, the lesser offense cannot serve as grounds for a subsequent felony murder charge.

Would be nice if the answer choice tipped you off to the necessary subsequent event language rather than just a blanket "No, because it's a more serious offense" when greater included offenses normally are barred by Double Jeopardy.

[cal.trask]

I think if the victim had died initially (before the trial), then double jeopardy would apply and the felony murder charge would be dismissed. The reason they can bring the murder charge here is the victim wasn't dead at the time of the rape trial. From Page 56 of Criminal Procedure outline

2) Occurrence of a necessary subsequent event
When jeopardy has attached with respect to a lesser included offense prior to the occurrence of an event necessary to establish the greater offense, the defendant may be subsequently tried for the greater offense.

[It goes on to give an example where a defendant is tried for battery, and the victim later dies and is tried for murder. This doesn't violate Double Jeopardy according to Diaz v. United States, 223 U.S. 442, 449 (1912). However, if he had been acquitted of the lesser offense, the lesser offense cannot serve as grounds for a subsequent felony murder charge.

Would be nice if the answer choice tipped you off to the necessary subsequent event language rather than just a blanket "No, because it's a more serious offense" when greater included offenses normally are barred by Double Jeopardy.

Yeah, this is one of those answer explanations where I think the explanation may actually put you on the wrong path and teach you the wrong thing.

[futago]

67% is autopass territory!

I'm confused by this. How are you figuring this? I'm in a 50% MBE state and I just took MBE practice test #4 and got 70%. Assuming that this correlates to my performance on test day that would mean I would get 122.5 raw (175 x .70 after removing the 25 experimental questions). I've seen that a good rough estimate of the curve is 10-15 so that would put me at 132.5-137.5. This means I'll have to pick up literally half the points in the essays to reach the passing score in my state. Am I missing something? I hope I am.

[cal.trask]

67% is autopass territory!

I'm confused by this. How are you figuring this? I'm in a 50% MBE state and I just took MBE practice test #4 and got 70%. Assuming that this correlates to my performance on test day that would mean I would get 122.5 raw (175 x .70 after removing the 25 experimental questions). I've seen that a good rough estimate of the curve is 10-15 so that would put me at 132.5-137.5. This means I'll have to pick up literally half the points in the essays to reach the passing score in my state. Am I missing something? I hope I am.

I think the 10-15 number is from the old distribution where it was a 190/10 split.

[futago]

67% is autopass territory!

I'm confused by this. How are you figuring this? I'm in a 50% MBE state and I just took MBE practice test #4 and got 70%. Assuming that this correlates to my performance on test day that would mean I would get 122.5 raw (175 x .70 after removing the 25 experimental questions). I've seen that a good rough estimate of the curve is 10-15 so that would put me at 132.5-137.5. This means I'll have to pick up literally half the points in the essays to reach the passing score in my state. Am I missing something? I hope I am.

I think the 10-15 number is from the old distribution where it was a 190/10 split.

Ah, thanks. That's good news if so.

[SeewhathappensLarry]

67% is autopass territory!

I'm confused by this. How are you figuring this? I'm in a 50% MBE state and I just took MBE practice test #4 and got 70%. Assuming that this correlates to my performance on test day that would mean I would get 122.5 raw (175 x .70 after removing the 25 experimental questions). I've seen that a good rough estimate of the curve is 10-15 so that would put me at 132.5-137.5. This means I'll have to pick up literally half the points in the essays to reach the passing score in my state. Am I missing something? I hope I am.

I think the 10-15 number is from the old distribution where it was a 190/10 split.

Ah, thanks. That's good news if so.

Does that mean we should add to ours scores around 25-30 now? Kinda confused how this all works

[jennifer_42]

Did anyone else get a weird glitch where they couldn't complete a short-answer exam? I couldn't mark Next or Complete, so I just let the time run out.

[cal.trask]

67% is autopass territory!

I'm confused by this. How are you figuring this? I'm in a 50% MBE state and I just took MBE practice test #4 and got 70%. Assuming that this correlates to my performance on test day that would mean I would get 122.5 raw (175 x .70 after removing the 25 experimental questions). I've seen that a good rough estimate of the curve is 10-15 so that would put me at 132.5-137.5. This means I'll have to pick up literally half the points in the essays to reach the passing score in my state. Am I missing something? I hope I am.

I think the 10-15 number is from the old distribution where it was a 190/10 split.

Ah, thanks. That's good news if so.

Does that mean we should add to ours scores around 25-30 now? Kinda confused how this all works

Can't really tell you. curve is (and always has been) different for every MBE. NCBE I think has said that the number of pretest questions should really affect the overall score. It should be roughly proportional to past scoring as a result I expect.

Really, it's something that's not within your control and isn't worth the aggravation to try and predict. Just focus on your goals.

[futago]

67% is autopass territory!

I'm confused by this. How are you figuring this? I'm in a 50% MBE state and I just took MBE practice test #4 and got 70%. Assuming that this correlates to my performance on test day that would mean I would get 122.5 raw (175 x .70 after removing the 25 experimental questions). I've seen that a good rough estimate of the curve is 10-15 so that would put me at 132.5-137.5. This means I'll have to pick up literally half the points in the essays to reach the passing score in my state. Am I missing something? I hope I am.

I think the 10-15 number is from the old distribution where it was a 190/10 split.

Ah, thanks. That's good news if so.

Does that mean we should add to ours scores around 25-30 now? Kinda confused how this all works

Can't really tell you. curve is (and always has been) different for every MBE. NCBE I think has said that the number of pretest questions should really affect the overall score. It should be roughly proportional to past scoring as a result I expect.

Really, it's something that's not within your control and isn't worth the aggravation to try and predict. Just focus on your goals.

Do you mean should or shouldn't affect?

[cal.trask]

Yes. That was a typo, as the following sentence indicates.

[futago]

Double post, sorry.

[cal.trask]

See my previous response. I would not expect it to make a major difference in the scoring. However, your state's weighting of the MBE may vary and this is all my own speculation so whatever.

[SeewhathappensLarry]

67% is autopass territory!

I'm confused by this. How are you figuring this? I'm in a 50% MBE state and I just took MBE practice test #4 and got 70%. Assuming that this correlates to my performance on test day that would mean I would get 122.5 raw (175 x .70 after removing the 25 experimental questions). I've seen that a good rough estimate of the curve is 10-15 so that would put me at 132.5-137.5. This means I'll have to pick up literally half the points in the essays to reach the passing score in my state. Am I missing something? I hope I am.

I think the 10-15 number is from the old distribution where it was a 190/10 split.

Ah, thanks. That's good news if so.

Does that mean we should add to ours scores around 25-30 now? Kinda confused how this all works

Can't really tell you. curve is (and always has been) different for every MBE. NCBE I think has said that the number of pretest questions should really affect the overall score. It should be roughly proportional to past scoring as a result I expect.

Really, it's something that's not within your control and isn't worth the aggravation to try and predict. Just focus on your goals.

Ah, fair enough. This whole process is such a mind fuck

[villanovajew]

Did anyone take Mixed MBE PQ 12 and 13 yet? I thought they were significantly easier than the previous couple.... I got 70% and 76% after getting around 62-64% on the previous few.

[cal.trask]

Did anyone take Mixed MBE PQ 12 and 13 yet? I thought they were significantly easier than the previous couple.... I got 70% and 76% after getting around 62-64% on the previous few.

After talking with somebody else I'm not entirely sure that these are the same questions for everybody. That said, I did better than usual on 12 but worse on 13. who knows.

[champloo]

Did anyone take Mixed MBE PQ 12 and 13 yet? I thought they were significantly easier than the previous couple.... I got 70% and 76% after getting around 62-64% on the previous few.

i did a bit below avg on 13, and a bit above avg for 12. i was very distracted for pq 13 so whatever. 14 killed me. got 10% below my avg score. this inconsistency is killing me. getting around 70-80 on adaptibar. so basically ive scored between 55% and 80% over the past 6 exam sets (mix b/w themis and ab). i've decided to spend some more time studying for the essays over the next few days in case the mbe fucks me over.

[logicspeaks]

The mixed sets definitely aren't the same for everyone, and you can get very random distributions in terms of difficulty. I actually got 94% on a mixed set the other day, followed by 55% the next day. I'd say if you want a good idea of how you're doing you should look at your average over the last 200+ questions.

I also wanted to add that according to One Timers calculator, if you get 70% on the MBE in California you'd only need 55s on your essays to pass. I have no idea how accurate their calculator is but I figured I'd throw that out there.

[honeyybee]

Did anyone take Mixed MBE PQ 12 and 13 yet? I thought they were significantly easier than the previous couple.... I got 70% and 76% after getting around 62-64% on the previous few.

i did a bit below avg on 13, and a bit above avg for 12. i was very distracted for pq 13 so whatever. 14 killed me. got 10% below my avg score. this inconsistency is killing me. getting around 70-80 on adaptibar. so basically ive scored between 55% and 80% over the past 6 exam sets (mix b/w themis and ab). i've decided to spend some more time studying for the essays over the next few days in case the mbe fucks me over.

I'm in the same boat. I've been scoring around 55-60% on the MBE practice sets but have been scoring 80-82% in NON-themis materials (Adaptibar + Stategies and Tactics). It's incredibly frustrating and anxiety inducing. I also focused on essays today because the inconsistency is driving me insane!

[cho8583]

Did anyone take Mixed MBE PQ 12 and 13 yet? I thought they were significantly easier than the previous couple.... I got 70% and 76% after getting around 62-64% on the previous few.

i did a bit below avg on 13, and a bit above avg for 12. i was very distracted for pq 13 so whatever. 14 killed me. got 10% below my avg score. this inconsistency is killing me. getting around 70-80 on adaptibar. so basically ive scored between 55% and 80% over the past 6 exam sets (mix b/w themis and ab). i've decided to spend some more time studying for the essays over the next few days in case the mbe fucks me over.

I'm in the same boat. I've been scoring around 55-60% on the MBE practice sets but have been scoring 80-82% in NON-themis materials (Adaptibar + Stategies and Tactics). It's incredibly frustrating and anxiety inducing. I also focused on essays today because the inconsistency is driving me insane!

As I previously mentioned in the thread, I have no idea why it is completely opposite for me; I find Adaptibar, S&T are much harder than Themis!

[champloo]

Did anyone take Mixed MBE PQ 12 and 13 yet? I thought they were significantly easier than the previous couple.... I got 70% and 76% after getting around 62-64% on the previous few.

i did a bit below avg on 13, and a bit above avg for 12. i was very distracted for pq 13 so whatever. 14 killed me. got 10% below my avg score. this inconsistency is killing me. getting around 70-80 on adaptibar. so basically ive scored between 55% and 80% over the past 6 exam sets (mix b/w themis and ab). i've decided to spend some more time studying for the essays over the next few days in case the mbe fucks me over.

I'm in the same boat. I've been scoring around 55-60% on the MBE practice sets but have been scoring 80-82% in NON-themis materials (Adaptibar + Stategies and Tactics). It's incredibly frustrating and anxiety inducing. I also focused on essays today because the inconsistency is driving me insane!

the funny thing is i was doing a lot better on the earlier themis pq sets and worse on the first few sets for adaptibar! but i think my overall avg for all mbe questions is between 63%-70%. hopefully, this is enough for a 140 scaled. the uncertainty is stressful

[champloo]

Did anyone take Mixed MBE PQ 12 and 13 yet? I thought they were significantly easier than the previous couple.... I got 70% and 76% after getting around 62-64% on the previous few.

i did a bit below avg on 13, and a bit above avg for 12. i was very distracted for pq 13 so whatever. 14 killed me. got 10% below my avg score. this inconsistency is killing me. getting around 70-80 on adaptibar. so basically ive scored between 55% and 80% over the past 6 exam sets (mix b/w themis and ab). i've decided to spend some more time studying for the essays over the next few days in case the mbe fucks me over.

I'm in the same boat. I've been scoring around 55-60% on the MBE practice sets but have been scoring 80-82% in NON-themis materials (Adaptibar + Stategies and Tactics). It's incredibly frustrating and anxiety inducing. I also focused on essays today because the inconsistency is driving me insane!

As I previously mentioned in the thread, I have no idea why it is completely opposite for me; I find Adaptibar, S&T are much harder than Themis!

lol. adaptibar was harder for me when i first started it but now im scoring much higher, while my themis scores are trending downward

[Love With The Coco]

67% is autopass territory!

I'm confused by this. How are you figuring this? I'm in a 50% MBE state and I just took MBE practice test #4 and got 70%. Assuming that this correlates to my performance on test day that would mean I would get 122.5 raw (175 x .70 after removing the 25 experimental questions). I've seen that a good rough estimate of the curve is 10-15 so that would put me at 132.5-137.5. This means I'll have to pick up literally half the points in the essays to reach the passing score in my state. Am I missing something? I hope I am.

I think the 10-15 number is from the old distribution where it was a 190/10 split.

Ah, thanks. That's good news if so.

Does that mean we should add to ours scores around 25-30 now? Kinda confused how this all works

Just ignore raw score and look at % and compare it to past % -> scaled score

[SeewhathappensLarry]

Did anyone take Mixed MBE PQ 12 and 13 yet? I thought they were significantly easier than the previous couple.... I got 70% and 76% after getting around 62-64% on the previous few.

i did a bit below avg on 13, and a bit above avg for 12. i was very distracted for pq 13 so whatever. 14 killed me. got 10% below my avg score. this inconsistency is killing me. getting around 70-80 on adaptibar. so basically ive scored between 55% and 80% over the past 6 exam sets (mix b/w themis and ab). i've decided to spend some more time studying for the essays over the next few days in case the mbe fucks me over.

I'm in the same boat. I've been scoring around 55-60% on the MBE practice sets but have been scoring 80-82% in NON-themis materials (Adaptibar + Stategies and Tactics). It's incredibly frustrating and anxiety inducing. I also focused on essays today because the inconsistency is driving me insane!

As I previously mentioned in the thread, I have no idea why it is completely opposite for me; I find Adaptibar, S&T are much harder than Themis!

lol. adaptibar was harder for me when i first started it but now im scoring much higher, while my themis scores are trending downward

As a non-adaptibar user--what is the difference between the substance of the questions between that and Themis?