2017 July California Bar Forum

jagsta · Post by **jagsta** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:37 am

NYC2012 wrote:Sorry if this has been asked before- what kind of word count are we aiming for on the essays/PT?

Former bar grader tutor I used for Feb. 2017 told me to aim for around 2100-2200 words (or more) for PTs.

Alt123 · Post by **Alt123** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:46 am

jagsta wrote:
NYC2012 wrote:Sorry if this has been asked before- what kind of word count are we aiming for on the essays/PT?
Former bar grader tutor I used for Feb. 2017 told me to aim for around 2100-2200 words (or more) for PTs.

Do they actually give a shit about word count? I type fast because I've been PC gaming all my life anyway but it seems like you get a lot of points just for length and organization/presentation alone which feels... weird.

NYC2012 · Post by **NYC2012** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:44 pm

Dee099 · Post by **Dee099** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:50 pm

Hopefully word count is less for hand-written test takers, I sometimes think hand writing puts me at a disadvantage with graders, but I never took any law school final typed and have never liked it.

jagsta · Post by **jagsta** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:24 pm

Alt123 wrote:
jagsta wrote:
NYC2012 wrote:Sorry if this has been asked before- what kind of word count are we aiming for on the essays/PT?
Former bar grader tutor I used for Feb. 2017 told me to aim for around 2100-2200 words (or more) for PTs.
Do they actually give a shit about word count? I type fast because I've been PC gaming all my life anyway but it seems like you get a lot of points just for length and organization/presentation alone which feels... weird.

No I don't think they care but like nyc2012 mentioned, its a generic way to see all the issues were spotted and addressed.

Desert rat · Post by **Desert rat** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:27 pm

CRKay91 wrote:What kind of MBE score is required to shit the bed on the essays and still pass? I mean like 55s on the essays. Assume a 65 or 70 on the PT. Would a 140/200 raw MBE get you close?

Took it in Feb. and got a 156 on MBEs and raw scaled score on essays/PTs of 592.5, which was not enough to pass. I did receive a second read on the essays/PTs. Scores on first read were: 60, 55, 65, 55, 55,65; PTs: 60,60. and second read: 75, 60, 60, 65, 55,60; PTs: 55,55. So you definitely need more than 55s to pass, particularly since there is now only one PT (good for me) that may pull your score up if you get a 70 on it.

Good luck!

barjamie8 · Post by **barjamie8** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:35 pm

jagsta wrote:
Alt123 wrote:
jagsta wrote:
NYC2012 wrote:Sorry if this has been asked before- what kind of word count are we aiming for on the essays/PT?
Former bar grader tutor I used for Feb. 2017 told me to aim for around 2100-2200 words (or more) for PTs.
Do they actually give a shit about word count? I type fast because I've been PC gaming all my life anyway but it seems like you get a lot of points just for length and organization/presentation alone which feels... weird.
No I don't think they care but like nyc2012 mentioned, its a generic way to see all the issues were spotted and addressed.

Word count does not matter at all. I've seen 3 page essays on baressays with low word count score 75 and 10 page essays with high word count score 50. Or, 3 page essays score 70+ and 8 page essays *for the same question* get the exact same score. What matters is hitting all the issues and getting the rules and elements correct, and formatting it correctly to make it easy for the grader.

CRKay91 · Post by **CRKay91** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:10 pm

Desert rat wrote:
CRKay91 wrote:What kind of MBE score is required to shit the bed on the essays and still pass? I mean like 55s on the essays. Assume a 65 or 70 on the PT. Would a 140/200 raw MBE get you close?
Took it in Feb. and got a 156 on MBEs and raw scaled score on essays/PTs of 592.5, which was not enough to pass. I did receive a second read on the essays/PTs. Scores on first read were: 60, 55, 65, 55, 55,65; PTs: 60,60. and second read: 75, 60, 60, 65, 55,60; PTs: 55,55. So you definitely need more than 55s to pass, particularly since there is now only one PT (good for me) that may pull your score up if you get a 70 on it.

Good luck!

Right, but this was before the MBE was worth 50%. The new scoring rubric should allow more passes for folks with weak essays and strong MBEs, shouldn't it?

omar.comin · Post by **omar.comin** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:14 pm

CRKay91 wrote:
Desert rat wrote:
CRKay91 wrote:What kind of MBE score is required to shit the bed on the essays and still pass? I mean like 55s on the essays. Assume a 65 or 70 on the PT. Would a 140/200 raw MBE get you close?
Took it in Feb. and got a 156 on MBEs and raw scaled score on essays/PTs of 592.5, which was not enough to pass. I did receive a second read on the essays/PTs. Scores on first read were: 60, 55, 65, 55, 55,65; PTs: 60,60. and second read: 75, 60, 60, 65, 55,60; PTs: 55,55. So you definitely need more than 55s to pass, particularly since there is now only one PT (good for me) that may pull your score up if you get a 70 on it.

Good luck!
Right, but this was before the MBE was worth 50%. The new scoring rubric should allow more passes for folks with weak essays and strong MBEs, shouldn't it?

I find it very troubling that an essay on one read can be 60 and on a second read be a 75?? Other scores are relatively consistent, though.

whats an updog · Post by **whats an updog** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:22 pm

CRKay91 wrote:
Desert rat wrote:
CRKay91 wrote:What kind of MBE score is required to shit the bed on the essays and still pass? I mean like 55s on the essays. Assume a 65 or 70 on the PT. Would a 140/200 raw MBE get you close?
Took it in Feb. and got a 156 on MBEs and raw scaled score on essays/PTs of 592.5, which was not enough to pass. I did receive a second read on the essays/PTs. Scores on first read were: 60, 55, 65, 55, 55,65; PTs: 60,60. and second read: 75, 60, 60, 65, 55,60; PTs: 55,55. So you definitely need more than 55s to pass, particularly since there is now only one PT (good for me) that may pull your score up if you get a 70 on it.

Good luck!
Right, but this was before the MBE was worth 50%. The new scoring rubric should allow more passes for folks with weak essays and strong MBEs, shouldn't it?

Yes, it should be better for people with weak essays and strong MBEs, but besides saying it should be 15% better, I don't know how to figure it.

Desert rat · Post by **Desert rat** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:25 pm

CRKay91 wrote:
Desert rat wrote:
CRKay91 wrote:What kind of MBE score is required to shit the bed on the essays and still pass? I mean like 55s on the essays. Assume a 65 or 70 on the PT. Would a 140/200 raw MBE get you close?
Took it in Feb. and got a 156 on MBEs and raw scaled score on essays/PTs of 592.5, which was not enough to pass. I did receive a second read on the essays/PTs. Scores on first read were: 60, 55, 65, 55, 55,65; PTs: 60,60. and second read: 75, 60, 60, 65, 55,60; PTs: 55,55. So you definitely need more than 55s to pass, particularly since there is now only one PT (good for me) that may pull your score up if you get a 70 on it.

Good luck!
Right, but this was before the MBE was worth 50%. The new scoring rubric should allow more passes for folks with weak essays and strong MBEs, shouldn't it?

Yes, to a degree. Of course that was the first thing I calculated when I received my scores. Had they been weighted equally (50:50) I think I would have passed by 7 points or so. Of course now there are only 5 essays, so there is a bit less wiggle room if you totally tank one of them. Same for PT....not that I could do much worse than I did in Feb.

Desert rat · Post by **Desert rat** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:17 pm

omar.comin wrote:
CRKay91 wrote:
Desert rat wrote:
CRKay91 wrote:What kind of MBE score is required to shit the bed on the essays and still pass? I mean like 55s on the essays. Assume a 65 or 70 on the PT. Would a 140/200 raw MBE get you close?
Took it in Feb. and got a 156 on MBEs and raw scaled score on essays/PTs of 592.5, which was not enough to pass. I did receive a second read on the essays/PTs. Scores on first read were: 60, 55, 65, 55, 55,65; PTs: 60,60. and second read: 75, 60, 60, 65, 55,60; PTs: 55,55. So you definitely need more than 55s to pass, particularly since there is now only one PT (good for me) that may pull your score up if you get a 70 on it.

Good luck!
Right, but this was before the MBE was worth 50%. The new scoring rubric should allow more passes for folks with weak essays and strong MBEs, shouldn't it?
I find it very troubling that an essay on one read can be 60 and on a second read be a 75?? Other scores are relatively consistent, though.

Yep, that's what I said....troubling. It was the Wills question. If the two scores are over 10 points apart, then it goes to the "resolution grader" who in my case deemed it a 65. All the others are averaged.

InterAlia1961 · Post by **InterAlia1961** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:32 pm

Another bombed PT. WTF is wrong with me? I think I have a workable outline, then halfway through the thing, I lose the the thread. I don't understand what the problem is, other than I feel rushed by the time limit. I see the clock, and get pins and needles up and down my spine. I hate this.

SDChargers · Post by **SDChargers** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:44 pm

Hi,

Does anyone have a PR Essay Approach Framework / Outline?

I heard The Bar Code Cheat Sheets in Action CA by Whitney Roberts has some good essay frameworks but really don't want to fork over $300-$400 on amazon to get one.

Or anything for CALifornia Civil Procedure or CALiforna Evidence? (OR even any sample / past essays to use for practice) I have one from the CA BAR Website for California Civil Procedure but nothing for CAL Evidence.

Any help is appreciated

a male human · Post by **a male human** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:47 pm

SDChargers wrote:Hi,

Does anyone have a PR Essay Approach Framework / Outline?

I heard The Bar Code Cheat Sheets in Action CA by Whitney Roberts has some good essay frameworks but really don't want to fork over $300-$400 on amazon to get one.

Or anything for CALifornia Civil Procedure or CALiforna Evidence? (OR even any sample / past essays to use for practice) I have one from the CA BAR Website for California Civil Procedure but nothing for CAL Evidence.

Any help is appreciated

Something like this maybe?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6en0kxklf651 ... e.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b5k5rusq45zre ... y.pdf?dl=0

Dee099 · Post by **Dee099** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:09 pm

Nice, those look really helpful. TY

SDChargers · Post by **SDChargers** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:52 pm

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!

a male human wrote:
SDChargers wrote:Hi,

Does anyone have a PR Essay Approach Framework / Outline?

I heard The Bar Code Cheat Sheets in Action CA by Whitney Roberts has some good essay frameworks but really don't want to fork over $300-$400 on amazon to get one.

Or anything for CALifornia Civil Procedure or CALiforna Evidence? (OR even any sample / past essays to use for practice) I have one from the CA BAR Website for California Civil Procedure but nothing for CAL Evidence.

Any help is appreciated
Something like this maybe?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6en0kxklf651 ... e.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b5k5rusq45zre ... y.pdf?dl=0

sk1130 · Post by **sk1130** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:09 pm

a male human wrote:
SDChargers wrote:Hi,

Does anyone have a PR Essay Approach Framework / Outline?

I heard The Bar Code Cheat Sheets in Action CA by Whitney Roberts has some good essay frameworks but really don't want to fork over $300-$400 on amazon to get one.

Or anything for CALifornia Civil Procedure or CALiforna Evidence? (OR even any sample / past essays to use for practice) I have one from the CA BAR Website for California Civil Procedure but nothing for CAL Evidence.

Any help is appreciated
Something like this maybe?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6en0kxklf651 ... e.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b5k5rusq45zre ... y.pdf?dl=0

Thank you SO much, a male human!!! (and SDChargers for asking)

t-14orbust · Post by **t-14orbust** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:33 pm

a male human wrote:
SDChargers wrote:Hi,

Does anyone have a PR Essay Approach Framework / Outline?

I heard The Bar Code Cheat Sheets in Action CA by Whitney Roberts has some good essay frameworks but really don't want to fork over $300-$400 on amazon to get one.

Or anything for CALifornia Civil Procedure or CALiforna Evidence? (OR even any sample / past essays to use for practice) I have one from the CA BAR Website for California Civil Procedure but nothing for CAL Evidence.

Any help is appreciated
Something like this maybe?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6en0kxklf651 ... e.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b5k5rusq45zre ... y.pdf?dl=0

Wow, those are awesome. If you have any more for any subject I'd appreciate a PM

LockBox · Post by **LockBox** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:00 pm

Don't forget about this resource:

https://law.stanford.edu/office-of-stud ... formation/

Scroll to the bottom. There are short/long outlines for most subjects. This, coupled with a word doc of all of the rules I wrote down, is all I used to prep for the bar when I retook it and it was all that I needed.

Good luck.

Bartaker2017 · Post by **Bartaker2017** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:29 pm

I have a civil pro question. In a diversity case in federal court must the federal court allow an additur if it is allowed in state court or must the federal court refuse a parties request for an additur since they are not allowed in federal court because it would violate the 7th amendment?

whats an updog · Post by **whats an updog** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:27 pm

Bartaker2017 wrote:I have a civil pro question. In a diversity case in federal court must the federal court allow an additur if it is allowed in state court or must the federal court refuse a parties request for an additur since they are not allowed in federal court because it would violate the 7th amendment?

I don't think that's resolved, but Emanuel's Strategies & Tactics for the MBE says that because of analogous SCOTUS precedent, federal courts should apply additur if that's the state law.

thisisxael · Post by **thisisxael** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:02 pm

sup nerds, im back (kinda)

i self selected into this shit & really regret it
anyways is that bro who guesses essays right normally?? do u all think he'll be right even tho the distribution of stuff has changed. the one who was like it'll be CP, CA evidence, ks/remedies, property, and ethics. cuz man i couldn't come up w a worse set of essays for me if i tried lol

Hangastaronit · Post by **Hangastaronit** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:04 pm

What are people's thoughts on CA essay predictions? Futile to try to predict? Or worthwhile? It seems like PR and CCP are heavily tested, but other than that, is there any legit way to predict what will be tested? Obviously it's ideal to be well prepared for every topic, but it would be awesome to narrow it down

I know http://www.barsecrets.com's Dr. Saccuzzo makes a list every year. How accurate is he over the years? Does anyone else have input?

Thanks!

thisisxael · Post by **thisisxael** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:08 pm

whats an updog wrote:
Bartaker2017 wrote:I have a civil pro question. In a diversity case in federal court must the federal court allow an additur if it is allowed in state court or must the federal court refuse a parties request for an additur since they are not allowed in federal court because it would violate the 7th amendment?
I don't think that's resolved, but Emanuel's Strategies & Tactics for the MBE says that because of analogous SCOTUS precedent, federal courts should apply additur if that's the state law.

the case saying no additur in fed ct was from before erie, so that's why it's unclear. i would just say that if it came up on an essay ("it is unclear whether additur is considered substantive or state law"), and if it comes up on the MBE ill throw the book at the proctor and prob start to cry or something

2017 July California Bar Forum

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Register now to search topics and post comments!

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Register for access!

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.

2017 July CA BAR - PR Essay Structure Outline

Re: 2017 July CA BAR - PR Essay Structure Outline

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July CA BAR - PR Essay Structure Outline

Register now!

Re: 2017 July CA BAR - PR Essay Structure Outline

Re: 2017 July CA BAR - PR Essay Structure Outline

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Register now, it's still FREE!

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Re: 2017 July California Bar

Seriously? What are you waiting for?