July 2016 California Bar Exam Forum

[iliketurtles123]

I know this is a bit of a petty grievance, but I really do think successful bar takers should be able to see the breakdowns of their scores. We paid hundreds of dollars to take the test, it's not like the state bar is performing a free service; is it just laziness/bad value that they do not produce itemized score reports for everyone, or is there some extraneous justification?

Why does it matter? If you passed, you passed. The only reason it might matter is if you're trying to transfer your score to another Jx but they let you do it and will tell you if your score is high enough. So there really isn't any point in knowing the breakdown of your score.. Unless you're one of those people who wants to use your individual score to rank yourself with other test takers cause passing isn't enough for you, you wanna make sure you beat other people... that's just stupid. All that'll do is show that a ton of rich, white guys are good at paying for bar prep and have enough free time to study (and aren't affected by test-taking psych effects) to fill up the higher part of the rankings, and it'll give false evidence to racists to say "look at how people of color don't do as well on the bar, they should go to lower ranked schools" (a popular new racist thing to say in education). Whoa... sorry.. dunno where that came from. probably has nothing to do with you. I'm just happy I passed.

I think its perfectly valid to want to see your scores. It gives more data into the test, and allows for more transparency. People who passed cant give much advice to nonpassers bc they dont know how well they did. Passing by a margin is still passing, yes, but id rather get advice from someone who killed the test.

Alsp i devoted 3 months of my life and paid thousands of dollars. I think it's ok to ask for some feedback regarding my performance, even if only for the sake of curiosity

I do see the reason not to make it public though. I can see the potential for employers to ask for the actual score, and at a certain point, it may not just be about passing but what your score is (employers raising the bar for hiring.. And looking at scores instead of whether you passed)

[LurkerTurnedMember]

I know this is a bit of a petty grievance, but I really do think successful bar takers should be able to see the breakdowns of their scores. We paid hundreds of dollars to take the test, it's not like the state bar is performing a free service; is it just laziness/bad value that they do not produce itemized score reports for everyone, or is there some extraneous justification?

Why does it matter? If you passed, you passed. The only reason it might matter is if you're trying to transfer your score to another Jx but they let you do it and will tell you if your score is high enough. So there really isn't any point in knowing the breakdown of your score.. Unless you're one of those people who wants to use your individual score to rank yourself with other test takers cause passing isn't enough for you, you wanna make sure you beat other people... that's just stupid. All that'll do is show that a ton of rich, white guys are good at paying for bar prep and have enough free time to study (and aren't affected by test-taking psych effects) to fill up the higher part of the rankings, and it'll give false evidence to racists to say "look at how people of color don't do as well on the bar, they should go to lower ranked schools" (a popular new racist thing to say in education). Whoa... sorry.. dunno where that came from. probably has nothing to do with you. I'm just happy I passed.

I think its perfectly valid to want to see your scores. It gives more data into the test, and allows for more transparency. People who passed cant give much advice to nonpassers bc they dont know how well they did. Passing by a margin is still passing, yes, but id rather get advice from someone who killed the test.

Alsp i devoted 3 months of my life and paid thousands of dollars. I think it's ok to ask for some feedback regarding my performance, even if only for the sake of curiosity

I do see the reason not to make it public though. I can see the potential for employers to ask for the actual score, and at a certain point, it may not just be about passing but what your score is (employers raising the bar for hiring.. And looking at scores instead of whether you passed)

It's not a potential, it's reality.. They already treat us as our LSAT number when we apply to law school even though it has almost no correlation with how well someone does in law school or after it, and then they treat us our grades even though the difference between people based on grades is inconsequential at best unless it's already obvious, like someone who completely failed compared to someone at the top 5%. They've turned us into numbers so many times already that neither I nor any other lawyer that exists now or will ever exist would wanna give them another easy way to turn us into a number again.. and for what? So you can know that you got a 1445 instead of a 1476?

[kakistocracy]

Passed!!

Yea!! And that's after you used the FRCP instead of .CA civ pro. You must have crushed the rest of the test

I was a repeater so it was still a shock, though I didn't apply FRCP - I applied CA Civ pro where needed. Any reason you thought I applied FRCP instead of CA Civ Pro? Anyone apply FRCP exclusively and pass?

Sorry, there was someone who did, and they were freaking out. I thought it was you. My bad, and congrats!

Came here to say I didn't apply CA Civ Pro at all and still managed to pass. I actually spent maybe only a day on CA Civ Pro, because I thought it was less likely to come up and was hedging my bets on what to study in my limited time. (I totally and needlessly procrastinated.) So it was all FRCP on that one, plus a couple of CA laws I'm pretty sure I made up.

[poundcr]

I want my score but I can admit it would only be because of the neurotic mindset that makes me want to compare myself. I am though curious because I felt like I could have studied SO much more so I am wondering if I was a barely passer or if maybe the advice given on here isn't the best. I used to get huge anxiety attacks whenever I read TLS because I was SOOOO behind everyone it seemed. I am nothing special median at a T50 school, had a median LSAT for my school. Idk I feel like it is so random at this point.

When does the bar release sample answers for the questions?

[Zaizei]

I also applied FRCP and passed... I guess you could argue it both ways... We will see when they release the answers for this past exam.

Do you know how the MPRE goes? I mean, I know nothing but I have to do it as soon as possible (heard that the next examination is in March 2017). Can someone give me some advice on this? (like how do I register for the next exam, what study-materials/books should I use, is it difficult?)

TIA

[rcharter1978]

I also applied FRCP and passed... I guess you could argue it both ways... We will see when they release the answers for this past exam.

Do you know how the MPRE goes? I mean, I know nothing but I have to do it as soon as possible (heard that the next examination is in March 2017). Can someone give me some advice on this? (like how do I register for the next exam, what study-materials/books should I use, is it difficult?)

TIA

I believe you register through the NCBE site for the MPRE.

I used Barbri and thought it was really good and on point. It is also free if you used Barbri for exam prep. Pay the $10-$15 to have the book shipped out, and don't fiddle around with trying to print it out. Listen to the lectures, read through the outline and do the practice exams.

I've heard all the major test prep companies have good programs (Kaplan, Themis), but I only know about Barbri

I would spend at least 2 weeks studying. Its not a tough exam at all, IMO. But you cannot sleep on it, because people who don't pass are those who have totally blown off studying.

It is not a difficult exam, and studying will feel so easy breezy after the bar.

[run26.2]

I want my score but I can admit it would only be because of the neurotic mindset that makes me want to compare myself. I am though curious because I felt like I could have studied SO much more so I am wondering if I was a barely passer or if maybe the advice given on here isn't the best. I used to get huge anxiety attacks whenever I read TLS because I was SOOOO behind everyone it seemed. I am nothing special median at a T50 school, had a median LSAT for my school. Idk I feel like it is so random at this point.

When does the bar release sample answers for the questions?

It is more random for people at the margin (of passing/not passing). For people at the top and people at the bottom, passing/not passing is less random. Not sure what advice you're referring to, but if it has something to do with doing all the material, and you are a counter-point to that, I don't think that warrants changing the advice to "do the minimum you can to pass." It does work in some cases, but it introduces lots more uncertainty. The better course is to overprepare so as to reduce the likelihood that factors beyond one's control influence the pass/no-pass result.

[Zaizei]

I also applied FRCP and passed... I guess you could argue it both ways... We will see when they release the answers for this past exam.

Do you know how the MPRE goes? I mean, I know nothing but I have to do it as soon as possible (heard that the next examination is in March 2017). Can someone give me some advice on this? (like how do I register for the next exam, what study-materials/books should I use, is it difficult?)

TIA

I believe you register through the NCBE site for the MPRE.

I used Barbri and thought it was really good and on point. It is also free if you used Barbri for exam prep. Pay the $10-$15 to have the book shipped out, and don't fiddle around with trying to print it out. Listen to the lectures, read through the outline and do the practice exams.

I've heard all the major test prep companies have good programs (Kaplan, Themis), but I only know about Barbri

I would spend at least 2 weeks studying. Its not a tough exam at all, IMO. But you cannot sleep on it, because people who don't pass are those who have totally blown off studying.

It is not a difficult exam, and studying will feel so easy breezy after the bar.

Thanks!!

[jbagelboy]

I know this is a bit of a petty grievance, but I really do think successful bar takers should be able to see the breakdowns of their scores. We paid hundreds of dollars to take the test, it's not like the state bar is performing a free service; is it just laziness/bad value that they do not produce itemized score reports for everyone, or is there some extraneous justification?

No way, lawyers have enough barely relevant criteria on which to neurotically judge each other and ourselves. Imagine a world where law firm hiring were based on not just your law school, class rank, and whether you passed the bar right away, but also your actual score on the bar? Eff that noise. Most people who fail barely fail, and most who pass barely pass. And a lot of it is subjective and imperfect anyway. Assume you got a 1410 and move on.

Okay, these are some pretty compelling arguments. I can see why we wouldn't want to transform scaled bar scores into another dick measuring contest. That being said, I think the horizontal inequity concern raised by Lurker actually runs the other way: a greater divergence between black and latino students and caucasian students, if it exists and if public data could prove it, would motivate positive changes to the test itself and the california bar administration.

For me, part of the personal frustration is that I will be taking the new york bar in a little over a year, and it would be nice to know whether my MBE scores were strong enough that I can spend less time drilling them and focus on the NY specific law/UBE, or whether my performance tests saved me from a shitty MBE result and I need to focus on MBE since I have less essay cushion in Ny. But oh well; again, a petty grievance.

[LurkerTurnedMember]

I know this is a bit of a petty grievance, but I really do think successful bar takers should be able to see the breakdowns of their scores. We paid hundreds of dollars to take the test, it's not like the state bar is performing a free service; is it just laziness/bad value that they do not produce itemized score reports for everyone, or is there some extraneous justification?

No way, lawyers have enough barely relevant criteria on which to neurotically judge each other and ourselves. Imagine a world where law firm hiring were based on not just your law school, class rank, and whether you passed the bar right away, but also your actual score on the bar? Eff that noise. Most people who fail barely fail, and most who pass barely pass. And a lot of it is subjective and imperfect anyway. Assume you got a 1410 and move on.

Okay, these are some pretty compelling arguments. I can see why we wouldn't want to transform scaled bar scores into another dick measuring contest. That being said, I think the horizontal inequity concern raised by Lurker actually runs the other way: a greater divergence between black and latino students and caucasian students, if it exists and if public data could prove it, would motivate positive changes to the test itself and the california bar administration.

For me, part of the personal frustration is that I will be taking the new york bar in a little over a year, and it would be nice to know whether my MBE scores were strong enough that I can spend less time drilling them and focus on the NY specific law/UBE, or whether my performance tests saved me from a shitty MBE result and I need to focus on MBE since I have less essay cushion in Ny. But oh well; again, a petty grievance.

You have a good point. And apologies if I sounded a bit like I was ranting. I'm at a top law school, top 10%, law review, good federal clerkship, and a biglaw job and I'm exhausted with having to worry about these almost random, immaterial measures of "merit." I can tell you there are soo many law students and newly minted lawyers who are much smarter and more capable than me and yet had trouble landing a big law job or a clerkship or do what they wanted to do with their career only because these measures we picked to rank ourselves aren't good measures in the first place. (I'm not saying I'm stupid or incapable, just that there are others better). And the cycle seems to feed on itself. I meet so many clerks and biglaw lawyers and judges who hire and value based on these dumb measures (I was surprised by how many judges wanted us to put our LSAT score on the resume for clerkship apps). It's like that kid in high school who had a cool honda civic and still brings it around the high school parking lot to show off even though he graduated 2 years ago. Give it a rest and grow up, no one cares about your lsat score, you class rank, your school. Just be a good lawyer.

[MsAvocadoPit]

I want my score but I can admit it would only be because of the neurotic mindset that makes me want to compare myself. I am though curious because I felt like I could have studied SO much more so I am wondering if I was a barely passer or if maybe the advice given on here isn't the best. I used to get huge anxiety attacks whenever I read TLS because I was SOOOO behind everyone it seemed. I am nothing special median at a T50 school, had a median LSAT for my school. Idk I feel like it is so random at this point.

When does the bar release sample answers for the questions?

I am neurotic too and want my score. I worked my ass off and I deserve the satisfaction of seeing it. End of story! high five

Edit: I'd want my score for *personal* review only- I wouldn't want the score to be used in any way... and other jurisdictions that release don't have this issue so I don't see why we would.

Bump for model answer release date question- I can't wait to see civ pro and con law.

[a male human]

I know this is a bit of a petty grievance, but I really do think successful bar takers should be able to see the breakdowns of their scores. We paid hundreds of dollars to take the test, it's not like the state bar is performing a free service; is it just laziness/bad value that they do not produce itemized score reports for everyone, or is there some extraneous justification?

No way, lawyers have enough barely relevant criteria on which to neurotically judge each other and ourselves. Imagine a world where law firm hiring were based on not just your law school, class rank, and whether you passed the bar right away, but also your actual score on the bar? Eff that noise. Most people who fail barely fail, and most who pass barely pass. And a lot of it is subjective and imperfect anyway. Assume you got a 1410 and move on.

Okay, these are some pretty compelling arguments. I can see why we wouldn't want to transform scaled bar scores into another dick measuring contest. That being said, I think the horizontal inequity concern raised by Lurker actually runs the other way: a greater divergence between black and latino students and caucasian students, if it exists and if public data could prove it, would motivate positive changes to the test itself and the california bar administration.

For me, part of the personal frustration is that I will be taking the new york bar in a little over a year, and it would be nice to know whether my MBE scores were strong enough that I can spend less time drilling them and focus on the NY specific law/UBE, or whether my performance tests saved me from a shitty MBE result and I need to focus on MBE since I have less essay cushion in Ny. But oh well; again, a petty grievance.

You have a good point. And apologies if I sounded a bit like I was ranting. I'm at a top law school, top 10%, law review, good federal clerkship, and a biglaw job and I'm exhausted with having to worry about these almost random, immaterial measures of "merit." I can tell you there are soo many law students and newly minted lawyers who are much smarter and more capable than me and yet had trouble landing a big law job or a clerkship or do what they wanted to do with their career only because these measures we picked to rank ourselves aren't good measures in the first place. (I'm not saying I'm stupid or incapable, just that there are others better). And the cycle seems to feed on itself. I meet so many clerks and biglaw lawyers and judges who hire and value based on these dumb measures (I was surprised by how many judges wanted us to put our LSAT score on the resume for clerkship apps). It's like that kid in high school who had a cool honda civic and still brings it around the high school parking lot to show off even though he graduated 2 years ago. Give it a rest and grow up, no one cares about your lsat score, you class rank, your school. Just be a good lawyer.

I appreciate this so much!

When I applied to jobs after the bar, I felt like I was just a number, just a GPA.

One time, I sent my application package to a firm. The HR person asked for an official transcript, not my unofficial one, even before they interviewed me. I paid $8 or whatever to get it, scan it and send it. Immediately after that she said I wasn't a good fit for the firm. I don't understand why they wouldn't just reject me when they had my unofficial transcript, which had the same grades on it. Made me waste time and money that I didn't have.

I have had recruiters excitedly contact me and say I had the skills some firms were looking for. They would actually get in touch with the firms, discuss my background and experience and get their agreement to send over my resume and all. Once they see my transcript (which does see a definitely improvement from 1L to 3L), they just go cold turkey.

Thankfully, I'm working at a firm that focused on the traits that matter for the field I'm in, and I'm getting compensated well (I also improved my craft over the 2+ years I've been there). I can understand that GPA is the only way to filter out a huge candidate pool, but it's almost as if all the work, my history, the care I put into getting here doesn't matter because my GPA sucks.

[rcharter1978]

I want my score but I can admit it would only be because of the neurotic mindset that makes me want to compare myself. I am though curious because I felt like I could have studied SO much more so I am wondering if I was a barely passer or if maybe the advice given on here isn't the best. I used to get huge anxiety attacks whenever I read TLS because I was SOOOO behind everyone it seemed. I am nothing special median at a T50 school, had a median LSAT for my school. Idk I feel like it is so random at this point.

When does the bar release sample answers for the questions?

I am neurotic too and want my score. I worked my ass off and I deserve the satisfaction of seeing it. End of story! high five

Edit: I'd want my score for *personal* review only- I wouldn't want the score to be used in any way... and other jurisdictions that release don't have this issue so I don't see why we would.

Bump for model answer release date question- I can't wait to see civ pro and con law.

Once people know you know, they will want to know as well, making it a metric to judge you on for a job or anything else.

So, I understand the argument to not give the score.

[rcharter1978]

I know this is a bit of a petty grievance, but I really do think successful bar takers should be able to see the breakdowns of their scores. We paid hundreds of dollars to take the test, it's not like the state bar is performing a free service; is it just laziness/bad value that they do not produce itemized score reports for everyone, or is there some extraneous justification?

No way, lawyers have enough barely relevant criteria on which to neurotically judge each other and ourselves. Imagine a world where law firm hiring were based on not just your law school, class rank, and whether you passed the bar right away, but also your actual score on the bar? Eff that noise. Most people who fail barely fail, and most who pass barely pass. And a lot of it is subjective and imperfect anyway. Assume you got a 1410 and move on.

Okay, these are some pretty compelling arguments. I can see why we wouldn't want to transform scaled bar scores into another dick measuring contest. That being said, I think the horizontal inequity concern raised by Lurker actually runs the other way: a greater divergence between black and latino students and caucasian students, if it exists and if public data could prove it, would motivate positive changes to the test itself and the california bar administration.

For me, part of the personal frustration is that I will be taking the new york bar in a little over a year, and it would be nice to know whether my MBE scores were strong enough that I can spend less time drilling them and focus on the NY specific law/UBE, or whether my performance tests saved me from a shitty MBE result and I need to focus on MBE since I have less essay cushion in Ny. But oh well; again, a petty grievance.

You have a good point. And apologies if I sounded a bit like I was ranting. I'm at a top law school, top 10%, law review, good federal clerkship, and a biglaw job and I'm exhausted with having to worry about these almost random, immaterial measures of "merit." I can tell you there are soo many law students and newly minted lawyers who are much smarter and more capable than me and yet had trouble landing a big law job or a clerkship or do what they wanted to do with their career only because these measures we picked to rank ourselves aren't good measures in the first place. (I'm not saying I'm stupid or incapable, just that there are others better). And the cycle seems to feed on itself. I meet so many clerks and biglaw lawyers and judges who hire and value based on these dumb measures (I was surprised by how many judges wanted us to put our LSAT score on the resume for clerkship apps). It's like that kid in high school who had a cool honda civic and still brings it around the high school parking lot to show off even though he graduated 2 years ago. Give it a rest and grow up, no one cares about your lsat score, you class rank, your school. Just be a good lawyer.

This makes a lot of sense. I was on the fence before but you've swayed me to your side.

Passing the exam was enough of an ego boost for me, I don't really need to know how much my time and effort paid off.

[2807]

Anyone have a link to the public name search of bar pass?
In the past the public could always search by name starting on Sunday.
I don't have the heart to ask a buddy if he passed...

[Spartan_Alum_12]

Anyone have a link to the public name search of bar pass?
In the past the public could always search by name starting on Sunday.
I don't have the heart to ask a buddy if he passed...

No public pass list anymore, at least I don't think so.

[2807]

Anyone have a link to the public name search of bar pass?
In the past the public could always search by name starting on Sunday.
I don't have the heart to ask a buddy if he passed...

No public pass list anymore, at least I don't think so.

Thanks. Apparently so.

Wow. 43% pass rate?
Is the test harder? What happened here?

Feels like the Cal Bar is trying to send a message to law schools that graduate folks without the ability to pass.
I wonder if the schools will just change the curriculum to a 3-year long bar-bri program?

[Boltsfan]

I don't particularly care about seeing my score (I passed), but I think all of you worrying about bar score being some sort of post-law school measuring stick are insane. The goal of the bar exam is the same as the goal of the MPRE: get as close to the line as you can. A 1440 is a perfect score.

[raekaya]

Anyone have a link to the public name search of bar pass?
In the past the public could always search by name starting on Sunday.
I don't have the heart to ask a buddy if he passed...

No public pass list anymore, at least I don't think so.

Thanks. Apparently so.

Wow. 43% pass rate?
Is the test harder? What happened here?

Feels like the Cal Bar is trying to send a message to law schools that graduate folks without the ability to pass.
I wonder if the schools will just change the curriculum to a 3-year long bar-bri program?

I, for one, think it's outrageous that the bar isn't releasing the pass list to the public and/or law schools. How are schools supposed to publish their' bar passage rates now? This seems like a huge step backwards in consumer protection to me.

[rcharter1978]

Anyone have a link to the public name search of bar pass?
In the past the public could always search by name starting on Sunday.
I don't have the heart to ask a buddy if he passed...

Feel your pain. I had a friend in the same position. I had to end up asking. The news was not good.

[rcharter1978]

I don't particularly care about seeing my score (I passed), but I think all of you worrying about bar score being some sort of post-law school measuring stick are insane. The goal of the bar exam is the same as the goal of the MPRE: get as close to the line as you can. A 1440 is a perfect score.

Think of all the type a attorney types you know.....

[rcharter1978]

Anyone have a link to the public name search of bar pass?
In the past the public could always search by name starting on Sunday.
I don't have the heart to ask a buddy if he passed...

No public pass list anymore, at least I don't think so.

Thanks. Apparently so.

Wow. 43% pass rate?
Is the test harder? What happened here?

Feels like the Cal Bar is trying to send a message to law schools that graduate folks without the ability to pass.
I wonder if the schools will just change the curriculum to a 3-year long bar-bri program?

I, for one, think it's outrageous that the bar isn't releasing the pass list to the public and/or law schools. How are schools supposed to publish their' bar passage rates now? This seems like a huge step backwards in consumer protection to me.

I thought they still released the pass rates for the schools just not individuals.

[raekaya]

Passed!!

Yea!! And that's after you used the FRCP instead of .CA civ pro. You must have crushed the rest of the test

I was a repeater so it was still a shock, though I didn't apply FRCP - I applied CA Civ pro where needed. Any reason you thought I applied FRCP instead of CA Civ Pro? Anyone apply FRCP exclusively and pass?

Me. I'm pretty sure I made absolutely 0 effort to even mention CAL rules. I also messed up the application of either SMJ or PJ (applied the rules/analysis to the districts, not states). That said, I still felt good about my answer in that I knew all the other rules/elements, did a lot of analysis, and kept good organization. All in all, I don't buy into the common thinking on this thread of "OMG I didn't mention one rule, I probably got a 55 or 60!" Just...no. I made sooo many mistakes on my graded practice essays during bar prep and never got lower than a 65.

[raekaya]

Anyone have a link to the public name search of bar pass?
In the past the public could always search by name starting on Sunday.
I don't have the heart to ask a buddy if he passed...

No public pass list anymore, at least I don't think so.

Thanks. Apparently so.

Wow. 43% pass rate?
Is the test harder? What happened here?

Feels like the Cal Bar is trying to send a message to law schools that graduate folks without the ability to pass.
I wonder if the schools will just change the curriculum to a 3-year long bar-bri program?

I, for one, think it's outrageous that the bar isn't releasing the pass list to the public and/or law schools. How are schools supposed to publish their' bar passage rates now? This seems like a huge step backwards in consumer protection to me.

I thought they still released the pass rates for the schools just not individuals.

Nope. Got an email from my school asking us to self-report because they aren't releasing the data to them.

EDIT: Sorry, I misunderstood what you're saying. They very well might be publishing pass rates. It's weird my school would ask us in that case.

Also, does anyone know if school pass rates published by the bar include LLMs?

[Boltsfan]

Think of all the type a attorney types you know.....

Do you know anyone who brags about their MPRE score? Why would you assume the bar exam would be any different. Its a test of minimum competency. It tests stuff like criminal common law despite the fact that all jurisdictions have penal codes now. It is in no way relevant to practice other than you have to have passed it to get your card.

I had a friend who took the UBE and scored over 300, so well over what you would need to get into any UBE jurisdiction, and we both agree she screwed up by not having more fun last summer. I just don't think anyone would really care. I think Texas actually publishes the name of the person who got the high score on the exam. That would be an interesting case study I guess.