THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION Forum

[Neilt001]

Maybe I'm being paranoid here, but how many words did you all write for the CPT? (I wrote 1420)

Mine was shorter. But PTs are not my strength. I don't remember any hard or fast rules, or even guidelines, about word count.

edit: now im paranoid lol

Yeah, I don't think there are any rules around length guidelines for PTs that I've seen. But on the last graded PT I got feedback that mine was significantly under the model answer's length, and I should devote more time to writing rather than reading/outlining, even though I ended up with an 80 because I hit almost all the points and it was well organized. I don't get it.

If it makes you feel any better, the Themis model answer for the CPT we just did (Blake Davis) was under 1400 words. Yes, I copy-pasted it and checked the word count thanks to my paranoia.

My advice on the MPTs is to just keep typing as much as you can. You're unlikely to get docked points for having too much analysis. The more you analyse, apply to facts, compare counter-arguments, etc (even if it's not very good) the more points you're likely to get.

During my bar exam, the guy next to me spent like a full 10 minutes after reading to make an outline on paper, before he started typing. Whereas I just got stuck into it right away and didn't stop typing until time was up. Sure I had to rearrange my headings and recalibrate the answer as it progressed, but I'm pretty sure the fact that I had lots of content in there got me a great score.

So yeah, unlike a law school essay, it's really quantity and formula (ie IRAC) over quality.

[Neilt001]

I'm really, really bad at memorizing as well, and struggled to memorize elements for the bar. I was surprised by a couple of the sub-topics tested on my exam, and BS'd quite a lot in terms of making up rules when I couldn't remember them. I got a 162.4 on the essay portion of the UBE, which put me in something like the top 1-2%. I honestly don't say this to brag, but to drive home the point that it's ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to pass without memorizing every little thing - just don't succumb to panic, whether in studying or on the actual exam when you run into a question you can't remember the rules for. When in doubt, make up a rule (you should know enough big-picture law to come up with something that convincingly approximates the real rule), APPLY TONS OF FACTS, and come to a conclusion based on the facts that makes it sound like you know what you're talking about.

I know a lot of people find the marking up/copying and pasting of model answers to be super helpful, but I didn't. I know this gets repeated a lot - but everyone learns differently. I feel like it's always tempting to follow someone's lead when they have such a specific "method" that involves highlighting and other fancy things, but it may not work for you.

For me, I outlined all of my essays closed-book - whether or not I could remember the rule. I personally think it's a useful exercise, at least for my learning style. I spent probably 15 minutes per essay going through and making bullet points of how I'd answer, including making up rules that I couldn't remember. Then I'd read over the sample answer and compare mine, but honestly I didn't spend a ton of time looking at sample answers. I also created my own subject-by-subject outlines, and reviewed them daily - then created mini outlines with bullet lists breaking down the topics that I was having trouble with. I was working full time up until the Thursday before the bar, so this wasn't as time-consuming as it may sound bc my studying was crammed into nights and weekends.

Good luck and DON'T START TO PANIC! You've (hopefully) put in the work so far, and I think keeping a cool head goes a long way in July.

I would definitely agree that you absolutely don't need to know all the rules/elements/law in order to do very well on the MEE. I similarly got a decent score by making up two of the six essays. So yeah, IRAC and application goes a long way, and they'll only dock you minimal points for failing to accurately state the law. But you'll get docked LOTS of points for failing to IRAC and apply the law (even if incorrect) to the facts, and consider counter-arguments etc.

Also I agree. Personally I liked memorizing the model answers and getting really comfortable with them, rather than forcing myself to answer practice essays that I didn't know. But totally everyone is different and so maybe your style is to just bullshit your practice essays and get really good at that, because you'll need that skill on the bar. Personally, I wanted a bit more comfort that I was getting the law right (and so I hammered home the model answers) but both skills are necessary.

[Pajsa18]

There was a question in the morning simulated MBE that referenced a JX that had abandoned the zone of danger requirement for NEID, but then said the mother could not recover because she was not within the zone of danger - am I missing something here? I thought she could recover specifically because the JX had "abandoned the requirement"???

[dabigchina]

There was a question in the morning simulated MBE that referenced a JX that had abandoned the zone of danger requirement for NEID, but then said the mother could not recover because she was not within the zone of danger - am I missing something here? I thought she could recover specifically because the JX had "abandoned the requirement"???

Huh I answered the same way. Weird.

[2015_Splitter]

There was a question in the morning simulated MBE that referenced a JX that had abandoned the zone of danger requirement for NEID, but then said the mother could not recover because she was not within the zone of danger - am I missing something here? I thought she could recover specifically because the JX had "abandoned the requirement"???

This is always super confusing to me as well. I think I got this. There are two ways to get NIED.

#1: Zone of Danger: You're a random person when something catastrophic happened near you that made you scared. So, for example, you're walking down the street, and the pole falls mere feet in front of you crushing the boy. You don't know the boy, but you were terrified for your own life and you suffer emotion damage. Normally, you have an NIED claim. However, this jurisdiction has disclaimed zone of danger recovery.

#2. You're related to someone and something catastrophic happens to them while you're around. You're in your house watching your son from the window. Your son is playing 500 feet away from the house when you see the pole break and crush your son. You have a breakdown from that sight.

So, in this question - the zone of danger portion was a red herring designed to make you think of situation #1. (They got me too.) However, we were always in situation #2 under these facts. Only problem is that the woman was nowhere near perceiving the catastrophic event happening to her son. So she can't recover under #2 either.


Edit:

There's a #3 way of getting to NIED. #3 - Special Scenarios

This is when a morgue mishandles the body of a loved one, a physician improperly diagnoses you, etc.

[RecruiterMan]

how did y'all do on the full-blown practice test?

and, relatedly what percentage should one be aiming for here if you're hoping for autopass-territory in a UBE state?

[Pajsa18]

There was a question in the morning simulated MBE that referenced a JX that had abandoned the zone of danger requirement for NEID, but then said the mother could not recover because she was not within the zone of danger - am I missing something here? I thought she could recover specifically because the JX had "abandoned the requirement"???

This is always super confusing to me as well. I think I got this. There are two ways to get NIED.

#1: Zone of Danger: You're a random person when something catastrophic happened near you that made you scared. So, for example, you're walking down the street, and the pole falls mere feet in front of you crushing the boy. You don't know the boy, but you were terrified for your own life and you suffer emotion damage. Normally, you have an NIED claim. However, this jurisdiction has disclaimed zone of danger recovery.

#2. You're related to someone and something catastrophic happens to them while you're around. You're in your house watching your son from the window. Your son is playing 500 feet away from the house when you see the pole break and crush your son. You have a breakdown from that sight.

So, in this question - the zone of danger portion was a red herring designed to make you think of situation #1. (They got me too.) However, we were always in situation #2 under these facts. Only problem is that the woman was nowhere near perceiving the catastrophic event happening to her son. So she can't recover under #2 either.


Edit:

There's a #3 way of getting to NIED. #3 - Special Scenarios

This is when a morgue mishandles the body of a loved one, a physician improperly diagnoses you, etc.

Thank you for the explanation! The problem for me - I think - is the wording on the part where the JX has abandoned the requirement. I took it as the abandonment made it no longer necessary to "see" the accident despite not being in the zone - some of these questions are worded so that I don't get it, even when I "get it" if you know what I mean? Lol

[1Abimrdjur3]

I thought the second set of 100 was way harder than the first, and my percentage reflected it haha. Is there an idea on what should be auto pass for CA?

[lawbug123]

Did you guys get the score for practice 3 exam? Just got my score and I'm super depressed...

[xhe02]

do we just add up the percentage of the two sessions? Where do we find the score

[deacon]

I got %65 on morning session and %66 on the afternoon. I got super bored during the exam. 3 hours straight without a break.. killed me. I need to work on my time management as well. This is what Themis offered today as an exam tip on Twitter. I guess everyone has a similar problem

[Superbeast]

71% for AM, 63% for PM - 134/200...came out of AM depressed a f cuz i was certain i had bombed it...PM was just such a drag that I didn't even have the energy to get depressed, even though I felt like it was a lot harder. AM had a lot more gimmies imo. Also, I usually finish PQs with tons of time to spare (i think i had like 30 minutes left on that last 100 PQ), but on both of these MBE i was down to the wire with maybe 5mins tops leftover at the end.

[gasfard]

how much more difficult is this than the real MBE? real MBE PQs seem much easier

[ithrowds]

71% for AM, 63% for PM - 134/200...came out of AM depressed a f cuz i was certain i had bombed it...PM was just such a drag that I didn't even have the energy to get depressed, even though I felt like it was a lot harder. AM had a lot more gimmies imo. Also, I usually finish PQs with tons of time to spare (i think i had like 30 minutes left on that last 100 PQ), but on both of these MBE i was down to the wire with maybe 5mins tops leftover at the end.

Same, found this to be much more of a time drag than my mixed question sets. For 50 question sets, I'm usually finishing w/ about 15-20 mins to spare, finished both the AM and PM with 5 mins to spare (if even)

[ithrowds]

So, looking over my PM scores - there was a point at which I had gotten 11 out of 20 questions wrong, and another point when I got 25 in a row right. Does anyone else have streaky performance like this? That seems a bit obscene to me

[Pajsa18]

So, looking over my PM scores - there was a point at which I had gotten 11 out of 20 questions wrong, and another point when I got 25 in a row right. Does anyone else have streaky performance like this? That seems a bit obscene to me

Mine were like that through the entire exam, but I only had time to do the first set today.

[dabigchina]

So, looking over my PM scores - there was a point at which I had gotten 11 out of 20 questions wrong, and another point when I got 25 in a row right. Does anyone else have streaky performance like this? That seems a bit obscene to me

themis claims it's because people lose focus for stretches at a time. I personally think it's because Themis tends to group really hard and really easy questions together.

[Superbeast]

62-92 on PM seemed to be the streakiest portion for me.

[thisyearsgirl]

71% AM, 65% PM. Definitely thought PM set questions were harder, but also I had really low stamina for the PM session . . . I was barely conscious by the time I hit question 150 lol. I honestly thought I did a lot worse than I did for the PM session b/c I had a REALLY hard time focusing.

I also noticed streaky scores, but only for session 2. It doesn't usually happen to me but considering that it was really noticeable during the end of the set, it's definitely a stamina issue for me.

[RecruiterMan]

So, looking over my PM scores - there was a point at which I had gotten 11 out of 20 questions wrong, and another point when I got 25 in a row right. Does anyone else have streaky performance like this? That seems a bit obscene to me

I somehow missed 7 out of the first 10 questions on the AM part but otherwise had no clear stretches of bad answers, and ended up with 70% and 74% for the two sets, so happy overall, but I clearly needed to get my head in the right place I guess? I was bored to tears in the afternoon but somehow did better, which was surprising.

[abogado2018]

Take a look at this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

It's a couple years old, but shows what people got on Themis or Barbri's Practice Test v. the actual exam. The average overage between all the courses was 25. So for example if you score a 120/200 (60%) on the practice exam this week it would correlate to about a 145 scaled MBE. Obviously take it for what it's worth.

Is there anything similar for essays? I’m not too worried about the MBE, just afraid that I’ll bomb the essays

Not that I could find. Although, most Themis graders grade way harder than the Bar Examiners.

Just looked over that spreadsheet and am shocked by the differences between the Themis simulated MBE scores and people's scores on the actual thing. Expected some difference, but we're talking 15-20 points. Are the actual MBE Qs that much easier? Why the drastic score differentials?

[Transfer2016]

77 in the AM, 76 in the PM. Felt terrible after both sessions.

[2015_Splitter]

There was a question in the morning simulated MBE that referenced a JX that had abandoned the zone of danger requirement for NEID, but then said the mother could not recover because she was not within the zone of danger - am I missing something here? I thought she could recover specifically because the JX had "abandoned the requirement"???

This is always super confusing to me as well. I think I got this. There are two ways to get NIED.

#1: Zone of Danger: You're a random person when something catastrophic happened near you that made you scared. So, for example, you're walking down the street, and the pole falls mere feet in front of you crushing the boy. You don't know the boy, but you were terrified for your own life and you suffer emotion damage. Normally, you have an NIED claim. However, this jurisdiction has disclaimed zone of danger recovery.

#2. You're related to someone and something catastrophic happens to them while you're around. You're in your house watching your son from the window. Your son is playing 500 feet away from the house when you see the pole break and crush your son. You have a breakdown from that sight.

So, in this question - the zone of danger portion was a red herring designed to make you think of situation #1. (They got me too.) However, we were always in situation #2 under these facts. Only problem is that the woman was nowhere near perceiving the catastrophic event happening to her son. So she can't recover under #2 either.


Edit:

There's a #3 way of getting to NIED. #3 - Special Scenarios

This is when a morgue mishandles the body of a loved one, a physician improperly diagnoses you, etc.

Thank you for the explanation! The problem for me - I think - is the wording on the part where the JX has abandoned the requirement. I took it as the abandonment made it no longer necessary to "see" the accident despite not being in the zone - some of these questions are worded so that I don't get it, even when I "get it" if you know what I mean? Lol

I totally know what you mean, and I read it the same exact way as you and got it wrong for the same reason. There's quite a few I get wrong because I interpret the problem differently than Themis. Hopefully, the NCBE questions aren't open for interpretation lol.

[abogado2018]

Gunnery tip: if you want to get a head start on tomorrow's MBE review videos, but the interface won't let you, change your timezone in settings to somewhere in Europe so the system thinks it's tomorrow

Sorry...

[Pajsa18]

Gunnery tip: if you want to get a head start on tomorrow's MBE review videos, but the interface won't let you, change your timezone in settings to somewhere in Europe so the system thinks it's tomorrow

Sorry...

Ha!! I love it!!