THEMIS JULY 2018 - DISCUSSION Forum

[Tala29]

Out of curiosity, when are people starting to do the essays without looking at notes? I've already done this with the multiple choice, but I still don't feel comfortable going off-book for essays, as I've only started memorizing stuff in the past week. Is there a strategy for slowly weaning myself off of notes for essays?

Personally, I think it's a waste of time to force yourself to write a full essay if you don't know the answer. I mean yeah, maybe you'll get practice on bullshitting essays (which, admittedly, is important on exam day because I ended up bullshitting a couple essays that were totally out of left field).

But really, just try to answer it based on what you know thus far, and if you don't know the answer, then just try to issue spot and dot point. The real learning (in my opinion) comes from copying and pasting the model answer, deleting fact-related stuff, printing it, and then highlighting/marking it up so you learn the rule. That way you'll know for next time. Themis does a good job of covering most of the potential areas you'll be tested on.

You see, almost all Themis essays target different areas of the subject, so (for the most part) you'll often be at a loss as to how exactly to answer it. However, once you've studied the model answer, you should then be in a good position to answer questions on those topics going forward. Of course, you should also know the subject well in case you get curve balls, but I think the model answer give a good idea about how to approach essays in each subject.

By the end of my study, I hadn't actually written *that* many full essays, but I did have all the model answers memorized.

how long did it take you to memorize these essay rules? Did you do that just for the essay subjects are all subjects?

I'm absolutely terrible at memorizing and frankly don't even have the basic elements of each tort and crime memorized yet at this point. I make such stupid mistakes still as forgetting that a judgment on the pleadings can only be brought AFTER the defendant served is answer - I feel like at this point I should know this.

I copied out the main rules for the essay subjects already but for some reason I can't get myself to sit down and start memorizing, I just panic at the sheer amount.

[LawIsLyfe33]

Out of curiosity, when are people starting to do the essays without looking at notes? I've already done this with the multiple choice, but I still don't feel comfortable going off-book for essays, as I've only started memorizing stuff in the past week. Is there a strategy for slowly weaning myself off of notes for essays?

Personally, I think it's a waste of time to force yourself to write a full essay if you don't know the answer. I mean yeah, maybe you'll get practice on bullshitting essays (which, admittedly, is important on exam day because I ended up bullshitting a couple essays that were totally out of left field).

But really, just try to answer it based on what you know thus far, and if you don't know the answer, then just try to issue spot and dot point. The real learning (in my opinion) comes from copying and pasting the model answer, deleting fact-related stuff, printing it, and then highlighting/marking it up so you learn the rule. That way you'll know for next time. Themis does a good job of covering most of the potential areas you'll be tested on.

You see, almost all Themis essays target different areas of the subject, so (for the most part) you'll often be at a loss as to how exactly to answer it. However, once you've studied the model answer, you should then be in a good position to answer questions on those topics going forward. Of course, you should also know the subject well in case you get curve balls, but I think the model answer give a good idea about how to approach essays in each subject.

By the end of my study, I hadn't actually written *that* many full essays, but I did have all the model answers memorized.

how long did it take you to memorize these essay rules? Did you do that just for the essay subjects are all subjects?

I'm absolutely terrible at memorizing and frankly don't even have the basic elements of each tort and crime memorized yet at this point. I make such stupid mistakes still as forgetting that a judgment on the pleadings can only be brought AFTER the defendant served is answer - I feel like at this point I should know this.

I copied out the main rules for the essay subjects already but for some reason I can't get myself to sit down and start memorizing, I just panic at the sheer amount.

I am right there with you

[Neilt001]

Out of curiosity, when are people starting to do the essays without looking at notes? I've already done this with the multiple choice, but I still don't feel comfortable going off-book for essays, as I've only started memorizing stuff in the past week. Is there a strategy for slowly weaning myself off of notes for essays?

Personally, I think it's a waste of time to force yourself to write a full essay if you don't know the answer. I mean yeah, maybe you'll get practice on bullshitting essays (which, admittedly, is important on exam day because I ended up bullshitting a couple essays that were totally out of left field).

But really, just try to answer it based on what you know thus far, and if you don't know the answer, then just try to issue spot and dot point. The real learning (in my opinion) comes from copying and pasting the model answer, deleting fact-related stuff, printing it, and then highlighting/marking it up so you learn the rule. That way you'll know for next time. Themis does a good job of covering most of the potential areas you'll be tested on.

You see, almost all Themis essays target different areas of the subject, so (for the most part) you'll often be at a loss as to how exactly to answer it. However, once you've studied the model answer, you should then be in a good position to answer questions on those topics going forward. Of course, you should also know the subject well in case you get curve balls, but I think the model answer give a good idea about how to approach essays in each subject.

By the end of my study, I hadn't actually written *that* many full essays, but I did have all the model answers memorized.

how long did it take you to memorize these essay rules? Did you do that just for the essay subjects are all subjects?

I'm absolutely terrible at memorizing and frankly don't even have the basic elements of each tort and crime memorized yet at this point. I make such stupid mistakes still as forgetting that a judgment on the pleadings can only be brought AFTER the defendant served is answer - I feel like at this point I should know this.

I copied out the main rules for the essay subjects already but for some reason I can't get myself to sit down and start memorizing, I just panic at the sheer amount.

I am right there with you

Yeah I agree memorizing is always the hardest part, and everyone has their own way of doing it. In many ways, I just kept re-reading the model answers and making notes in the margins distilling the answers down to their basic elements. There's no magic to it other than just repeatedly reading the answers until they're in your head.

What I ultimately ended up doing (and this was on the advice of my Themis rep) was to go over old essays that have already been assigned, and go through the process of issue spotting and answering (either in dot-point or full answers). This will improve your abilities by reinforcing things that you've already learned. See, you will already have studied the model answers, so this process will reinforce it and help you memorize in a real setting.

So essentially you're going through the process of: 1) doing an essay the first time and probably fucking it up 2) printing and reviewing the model answer and 3) re-doing past essays and reinforcing what you've learned.

Hope this makes sense. It worked for me, but I def understand that everyone learns differently and you may have other preferences.

[juliejul]

Out of curiosity, when are people starting to do the essays without looking at notes? I've already done this with the multiple choice, but I still don't feel comfortable going off-book for essays, as I've only started memorizing stuff in the past week. Is there a strategy for slowly weaning myself off of notes for essays?

Personally, I think it's a waste of time to force yourself to write a full essay if you don't know the answer. I mean yeah, maybe you'll get practice on bullshitting essays (which, admittedly, is important on exam day because I ended up bullshitting a couple essays that were totally out of left field).

But really, just try to answer it based on what you know thus far, and if you don't know the answer, then just try to issue spot and dot point. The real learning (in my opinion) comes from copying and pasting the model answer, deleting fact-related stuff, printing it, and then highlighting/marking it up so you learn the rule. That way you'll know for next time. Themis does a good job of covering most of the potential areas you'll be tested on.

You see, almost all Themis essays target different areas of the subject, so (for the most part) you'll often be at a loss as to how exactly to answer it. However, once you've studied the model answer, you should then be in a good position to answer questions on those topics going forward. Of course, you should also know the subject well in case you get curve balls, but I think the model answer give a good idea about how to approach essays in each subject.

By the end of my study, I hadn't actually written *that* many full essays, but I did have all the model answers memorized.

how long did it take you to memorize these essay rules? Did you do that just for the essay subjects are all subjects?

I'm absolutely terrible at memorizing and frankly don't even have the basic elements of each tort and crime memorized yet at this point. I make such stupid mistakes still as forgetting that a judgment on the pleadings can only be brought AFTER the defendant served is answer - I feel like at this point I should know this.

I copied out the main rules for the essay subjects already but for some reason I can't get myself to sit down and start memorizing, I just panic at the sheer amount.

I'm really, really bad at memorizing as well, and struggled to memorize elements for the bar. I was surprised by a couple of the sub-topics tested on my exam, and BS'd quite a lot in terms of making up rules when I couldn't remember them. I got a 162.4 on the essay portion of the UBE, which put me in something like the top 1-2%. I honestly don't say this to brag, but to drive home the point that it's ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to pass without memorizing every little thing - just don't succumb to panic, whether in studying or on the actual exam when you run into a question you can't remember the rules for. When in doubt, make up a rule (you should know enough big-picture law to come up with something that convincingly approximates the real rule), APPLY TONS OF FACTS, and come to a conclusion based on the facts that makes it sound like you know what you're talking about.

I know a lot of people find the marking up/copying and pasting of model answers to be super helpful, but I didn't. I know this gets repeated a lot - but everyone learns differently. I feel like it's always tempting to follow someone's lead when they have such a specific "method" that involves highlighting and other fancy things, but it may not work for you.

For me, I outlined all of my essays closed-book - whether or not I could remember the rule. I personally think it's a useful exercise, at least for my learning style. I spent probably 15 minutes per essay going through and making bullet points of how I'd answer, including making up rules that I couldn't remember. Then I'd read over the sample answer and compare mine, but honestly I didn't spend a ton of time looking at sample answers. I also created my own subject-by-subject outlines, and reviewed them daily - then created mini outlines with bullet lists breaking down the topics that I was having trouble with. I was working full time up until the Thursday before the bar, so this wasn't as time-consuming as it may sound bc my studying was crammed into nights and weekends.

Good luck and DON'T START TO PANIC! You've (hopefully) put in the work so far, and I think keeping a cool head goes a long way in July.

[lawbug123]

How's everyone doing on MBE PQs? I'm still getting roughly stuck around 60% on all the MBEs. Getting a bit worried here...

[CBlaw]

How's everyone doing on MBE PQs? I'm still getting roughly stuck around 60% on all the MBEs. Getting a bit worried here...

Just finished the 100 question set. Got a 70%. I am now starting to turn my focus to the essays. Printed them out and going through to highlight the rule statements to review. Basically have done none of the essays except maybe 5 or so this whole summer. Ill prob be focusing on essays now till the exam while still doing ~50 or so MC everyday .

*Also having been averaging at like 60% , which i think is good enough. From what ive read you usually will see a bump come exam time

[Pajsa18]

How's everyone doing on MBE PQs? I'm still getting roughly stuck around 60% on all the MBEs. Getting a bit worried here...

I'm not sure of your JX, but 60% is the goal if the final pass score is 260

[smile0751]

How's everyone doing on MBE PQs? I'm still getting roughly stuck around 60% on all the MBEs. Getting a bit worried here...

I'm not sure of your JX, but 60% is the goal if the final pass score is 260

Very few states have a 260 minimum. 266 is New York for example. What's the goal for a 270 (50% MBE if it matters)? The lack of appreciable feedback on what is "enough" is killing me.

[dabigchina]

Anybody doing Themis can practice exam? Morning was... Interesting

[CBlaw]

How's everyone doing on MBE PQs? I'm still getting roughly stuck around 60% on all the MBEs. Getting a bit worried here...

I'm not sure of your JX, but 60% is the goal if the final pass score is 260

Very few states have a 260 minimum. 266 is New York for example. What's the goal for a 270 (50% MBE if it matters)? The lack of appreciable feedback on what is "enough" is killing me.

The S&T book shows scores from one test year and breaks down the numbers. The year they broke down required 60% correct to receive a 133.

[Itwasascam]

First two practice exams and three mixed sets: 65-75%

Last two practice sets: 50’s

Wtf

[lawbug123]

First two practice exams and three mixed sets: 65-75%

Last two practice sets: 50’s

Wtf

Ok so I've been having this issue too. And I think it's because Themis does a bad job of evenly spreading out all the questions. So I feel liek there are some topics I'm solid on and I'm getting those questions re-tested. And the weaker ones are also being shown up in clusters and I get them wrong collectively.

[Tala29]

How's everyone doing on MBE PQs? I'm still getting roughly stuck around 60% on all the MBEs. Getting a bit worried here...

Me too I've done around 1900 questions already and my average score is still 60%!!! So worried.

[Pajsa18]

How's everyone doing on MBE PQs? I'm still getting roughly stuck around 60% on all the MBEs. Getting a bit worried here...

Me too I've done around 1900 questions already and my average score is still 60%!!! So worried.

My Themis rep says 60% for mixed sets is the goal.

I’m no expert, but I did use Themis for MPRE prep this past March for the March exam. I think the goal for that exam was about 75%. After about 3 days I was at, or just slightly beyond, the 75% goal. I understand it’s a totally different test, but they assured me that if I was hitting 75% toward the end, that should get me a comfortable pass.

I ended up scoring 22 points higher than what I needed. And fwiw, I’m no multiple choice test guru. I’m older, have a family, and have mostly lost my cerebral edge.

I think it’s best to trust the minimum score recommendations and then let it go. We’ve all gotten this far. We can do this.

[dabigchina]

Anybody doing Themis can practice exam? Morning was... Interesting

Afternoon was worse. Holy shit.

[ithrowds]

Anybody doing Themis can practice exam? Morning was... Interesting

Afternoon was worse. Holy shit.

The essays? Not great, at least in CA.

[lawlurk]

Anybody doing Themis can practice exam? Morning was... Interesting

Afternoon was worse. Holy shit.

The essays? Not great, at least in CA.

CA here. Having reviewed my answers, it was "meh." Some parts I nailed, others, not so much, truly a mixed bag. But during it I legit thought I was most def not minimally competent. That is an unpleasant feeling.

[abogado2018]

Maybe I'm being paranoid here, but how many words did you all write for the CPT? (I wrote 1420)

[lawlurk]

Maybe I'm being paranoid here, but how many words did you all write for the CPT? (I wrote 1420)

Mine was shorter. But PTs are not my strength. I don't remember any hard or fast rules, or even guidelines, about word count.

edit: now im paranoid lol

[abogado2018]

Maybe I'm being paranoid here, but how many words did you all write for the CPT? (I wrote 1420)

Mine was shorter. But PTs are not my strength. I don't remember any hard or fast rules, or even guidelines, about word count.

edit: now im paranoid lol

Yeah, I don't think there are any rules around length guidelines for PTs that I've seen. But on the last graded PT I got feedback that mine was significantly under the model answer's length, and I should devote more time to writing rather than reading/outlining, even though I ended up with an 80 because I hit almost all the points and it was well organized. I don't get it.

If it makes you feel any better, the Themis model answer for the CPT we just did (Blake Davis) was under 1400 words. Yes, I copy-pasted it and checked the word count thanks to my paranoia.

[lawlurk]

Maybe I'm being paranoid here, but how many words did you all write for the CPT? (I wrote 1420)

Mine was shorter. But PTs are not my strength. I don't remember any hard or fast rules, or even guidelines, about word count.

edit: now im paranoid lol

I don't get it.

Ya that seems strange. Never had that feedback, but I know its an issue of mine too. I am just not very wordy.

[dabigchina]

Maybe I'm being paranoid here, but how many words did you all write for the CPT? (I wrote 1420)

1400 is around the model answer lengths that ive seen. I wrote maybe 1500 on this one.

[dabigchina]

Anybody doing Themis can practice exam? Morning was... Interesting

Afternoon was worse. Holy shit.

The essays? Not great, at least in CA.

CA here. Having reviewed my answers, it was "meh." Some parts I nailed, others, not so much, truly a mixed bag. But during it I legit thought I was most def not minimally competent. That is an unpleasant feeling.

P sure I wiffed that first amd question. Otherwise it was fine except for that weird mortgage thing.

Saving up my strength. Haven't checked the answers yet.

[stressfulsusy]

How did everyone do on the beginning mixed mbe question sets? Wanted to get an idea about how everyone is scoring?

Just got a 50% on the first one and was like wow. But was looking at the ones i got wrong and most were in the medium-hard section. Seems there were a lot missed. Are they giving us super hard mixed question sets?

I wish they gave stats on everyone else's scores like the do for the practice tests.

68, 68, 64, 58, 60. I feel like they're testing the most ridiculously nuanced exceptions to the rules at this point.

I've completed 62.3% of the course, 1474 questions at this point with a 61% average and I don't know if I should be freaking out but I am. I also haven't started memorizing because I'm not even sure how to go about that. I was thinking that actually writing out all the practice MEE's they assign helps with memorization so I've done about 35 of those but Idk. How are yal going about that?

Also, I know the MPT is supposed to be easy but it's impossible for me.

[Tala29]

How's everyone doing on MBE PQs? I'm still getting roughly stuck around 60% on all the MBEs. Getting a bit worried here...

Me too I've done around 1900 questions already and my average score is still 60%!!! So worried.

My Themis rep says 60% for mixed sets is the goal.

I’m no expert, but I did use Themis for MPRE prep this past March for the March exam. I think the goal for that exam was about 75%. After about 3 days I was at, or just slightly beyond, the 75% goal. I understand it’s a totally different test, but they assured me that if I was hitting 75% toward the end, that should get me a comfortable pass.

I ended up scoring 22 points higher than what I needed. And fwiw, I’m no multiple choice test guru. I’m older, have a family, and have mostly lost my cerebral edge.

I think it’s best to trust the minimum score recommendations and then let it go. We’ve all gotten this far. We can do this.

Thanks. Yeah, the age.. I'm also older and my brain is also not what it used to be. Frankly I can't put in these 12 hours a day than most of my friends are. I just think at this point I can only try my best.

I am also hoping barbri is not a comparison because my friends doing that are scoring 80-90% on questions and the exams.