Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam Forum

[j1987]

Does anyone else feel like themis is incredibly slow at answering questions? I thought I read in one of their advertisements that they answer questions within 24 hours. I have questions from last thursday that are still unanswered.

All of mine have been answered within 24 hours.

[j1987]

People taking NY+NJ -

I have 3 big books (& 2 little ones i'm ignoring for now), NY Vol 1 and 2, and NJ + Multistate. It says on the Themis site that for the NJ bar, we have to know "All MBE distinctions plus New Jersey Civil Procedure"

NJ Civil Procedure is distinguished in the NJ + Multistate book. NY Vol 2 has MBE Distinctions, but only NY's distinctions are pointed out for each topic, not NJ's. Are we supposed to assume that the NJ ones are the same as NY?

Of course not. NJ civil proocedure is basically the SAME as Federal Civ. Let me tell you a little something. Last year I took the NY/NJ. I didn't TOUCH NJ civil procedure or anything NJ throughout my entire bar studying. I had it planned that I would briefly look over a NJ civil procedure outline the night before the NJ exam (3rd day).

Well, on the night of the MBE, after I was completely done with NY, I sat in my bed, watched Seinfeld, and fell asleep. I never looked over the NJ. I also didn't study federal civil procedure throughout the bar. I literally walked into the NJ bar NEVER studying or seeing ANYTHING relating to NJ law.

Passed. You know why? Because every single essay only tests MBE subjects. Yeah yeah yeah, there's one essay that's on NJ civil procedure. They always throw it in to confuse the NY people taking it. Last year it was class actions. I know nothing about class actions. I B.S.'d for a few paragraphs about how there has to be a class and everyone has to have the same problem and I made up a NUMBER of how many people had to be in a class to "certify it". All made up. But I wrote it like I knew what I was talking about.

Point is: for NJ, if you do ok on the MBE and write SOMETHING, you're going to pass.

No offense, but I don't really wanna take that $675 (and countless hours of studying) risk... I'm just asking where the NJ distinctions are in the Themis materials.

There are no NJ distinctions other than for civil procedure. Everything else is what you're learning for the MBE.

[Tanicius]

I think my grader revised my first essay today. My first score was an overall 4 out of 6 instead of the originally graded 1 out of 6, and my second essay actually got 3 out of 6. So I did worse on my second essay on a subject I know better. lol... But I will gladly accept that my essays are at 50th percentile right out of the gate rather than deal with being bottom of the barrel.

[jumpingjack]

I'm still doing practice essays with the summary outlines handy. At what point do you think it will be bad to continue to do that?

[Tanicius]

I'm still doing practice essays with the summary outlines handy. At what point do you think it will be bad to continue to do that?

Why don't you try not doing it for a few 34 question sets on each subject, just to see where your weaknesses lie? As long as you take practice tests under real conditions occassionally, to test your abilities so that you can adapt, I think you'll be okay taking most of the other practice sessions open book for a while. I would definitely stop doing open book completely in July though.

[swfangirl]

I'm doing closed-book for MC questions.

For essays, I do my first run-through closed. Then I go through and fill in missing chunks open-book. That way I get the practice of trying to see what I know, and then the practice of review. This is especially so for Graded Essays because I'm looking mostly for feedback on what I'm not thinking to do, not whether I've obviously forgotten something.

[Tanicius]

I'm doing closed-book for MC questions.

For essays, I do my first run-through closed. Then I go through and fill in missing chunks open-book. That way I get the practice of trying to see what I know, and then the practice of review. This is especially so for Graded Essays because I'm looking mostly for feedback on what I'm not thinking to do, not whether I've obviously forgotten something.

So you basically write every essay twice? Do you time yourself the second time around, or are you just trying to envision what a perfect essay answer would look like?

[swfangirl]

I'm doing closed-book for MC questions.

For essays, I do my first run-through closed. Then I go through and fill in missing chunks open-book. That way I get the practice of trying to see what I know, and then the practice of review. This is especially so for Graded Essays because I'm looking mostly for feedback on what I'm not thinking to do, not whether I've obviously forgotten something.

So you basically write every essay twice? Do you time yourself the second time around, or are you just trying to envision what a perfect essay answer would look like?

It's more like:

The elements of Concept 1 are A, ___, C, ___. The statute of limitations for A is X days, for ___ is 30 days, for C is ___, and for ___ is ___.

or I'll be able to analyze everything except for one rule, but I can't remember exactly how it lands, so I'll do all the analysis except that rule, and look it up when I open it up and complete it.

And then I go through and fill in the blanks the second round. I know what I'm missing and what I need to fill in.

I complete both rounds within the time limit, so I don't worry about it.

[Gotti]

There are no NJ distinctions other than for civil procedure. Everything else is what you're learning for the MBE.

Gracias.

So we not only have to be able to spot the right answer on MC, but we also have to REALLY memorize all the elements for everything in case we get an essay Q on it in NJ. Awesome.

But I guess it works the other way--memorizing everything in detail to recite all elements or whatever on the essays will help me know more for the MBE....

still sucks though.

[Shane]

Does anybody else find the long outlines and lectures an inefficient use of time. Its like I spend 4 hours listening to those things and merely have a grasp of the general topic. I'm tempted to fast forward thru the lectures to fill out my handouts and just memorize the handouts.

[kapital98]

Does anybody else find the long outlines and lectures an inefficient use of time. Its like I spend 4 hours listening to those things and merely have a grasp of the general topic. I'm tempted to fast forward thru the lectures to fill out my handouts and just memorize the handouts.

I feel you. Sherman Clark is currently testing my limit on lecture length. All of his lectures (including review lectures) are 20-30 minutes long. I expected to bat his second half of torts lectures out of the park today and instead wound up watching over 3 hours of video -- that was on 1.5-2x and skipping a couple review sessions. It completely screwed my daily schedule up.

I'm banking on the short 15 page outlines Themis hands out for MBE subjects. Everything else on those subjects can be learned through trial and error on simulated questions.

[puttycake]

Does anybody else find the long outlines and lectures an inefficient use of time. Its like I spend 4 hours listening to those things and merely have a grasp of the general topic. I'm tempted to fast forward thru the lectures to fill out my handouts and just memorize the handouts.

For me, reading then listening while filling out the handout is a better bet for actually learning at least some portion of the law so that I can hang ideas on.

My goal is to learn what I can and only memorize what I have to.

[JoeFish]

My goal is to learn what I can and only memorize what I have to.

That's probably a pretty good outlook.

[puttycake]

I finally have a very rudimentary understanding of the recording act problems I was having. I found this explanation that really helped me, so I thought I'd share:

https://www.inkling.com/read/wolters-kl ... rding-acts

[Apple Tree]

I finally have a very rudimentary understanding of the recording act problems I was having. I found this explanation that really helped me, so I thought I'd share:

https://www.inkling.com/read/wolters-kl ... rding-acts

This is great. Thank you!!

[Apple Tree]

I finally have a very rudimentary understanding of the recording act problems I was having. I found this explanation that really helped me, so I thought I'd share:

https://www.inkling.com/read/wolters-kl ... rding-acts

Man I like their outline a lot. Maybe I should have just bought these instead.

[Genuine4ps]

Ok, so the lecture handouts and the condensed outlines do not follow each other (i.e., they're not organized the same way). They were clearly written by two different people.

What approach are all of you taking with this? I feel like you should stick to one or the other, and I'm thinking about just sticking to the handouts, because they are essentially the same length as the condensed outline--the condensed outline just seems shorter because they pack a lot into each page.

[swfangirl]

I prefer the handouts. For some of the subjects I'm reading the long outlines once through as well, particularly Conlaw and Trusts.

[MinEMorris]

I personally rewrite the summary outline to better reflect the content of the handouts. It takes time, but the process of doing it is also a form of studying. What I generally end up with is an outline that follows the same structure (i.e. headings) as the summary outline but is around 25-75% longer with more detail and explanations. The summary outlines are too cursory, and the handouts are too long and discursive to serve as efficient references. Themis doesn't provide a middle-point document, so I'm inventing my own. So far, it has helped me enormously and has made me feel much more confident about the bar. But I was big into outlining in law school, so maybe it's a personal preference thing. YMMV.

On an unrelated note, George Geis for Constracts & Sales is weirding me out. I don't see how the caterpillar analogy he keeps bringing up is illuminating. I see the parallels he is drawing between caterpillars and contract law, but I don't think they make the information any easier to remember. (I think I can remember what irrevocable offers are without imagining caterpillars with magical shields to prevent them from being squashed.) And the stuffed animal he brought in was borderline awkward and creepy.

[Tanicius]

I personally rewrite the summary outline to better reflect the content of the handouts. It takes time, but the process of doing it is also a form of studying. What I generally end up with is an outline that follows the same structure (i.e. headings) as the summary outline but is around 25-75% longer with more detail and explanations. The summary outlines are too cursory, and the handouts are too long and discursive to serve as efficient references. Themis doesn't provide a middle-point document, so I'm inventing my own. So far, it has helped me enormously and has made me feel much more confident about the bar. But I was big into outlining in law school, so maybe it's a personal preference thing. YMMV.

On an unrelated note, George Geis for Constracts & Sales is weirding me out. I don't see how the caterpillar analogy he keeps bringing up is illuminating. I see the parallels he is drawing between caterpillars and contract law, but I don't think they make the information any easier to remember. (I think I can remember what irrevocable offers are without imagining caterpillars with magical shields to prevent them from being squashed.) And the stuffed animal he brought in was borderline awkward and creepy.

Nah, he's great. His only flaw is that he says "right?" twice every sentence, even when introducing something completely new.

Because by saying right at the end of my sentences, whatever I say is automatically more understandable -- right? -- even if you didn't know anything about it before I talked about it, right? Let's illustrate, right? I can boldly claim to know the world's population in the year 2030 -- right? -- and even though it's preposterous that I could know such a thing -- right? -- by saying "right" you find me more credible and helpful, right? Because if I say right at the end of my sentences -- right? -- you will feel assured and believe me, right?

[MinEMorris]

Nah, he's great. His only flaw is that he says "right?" twice every sentence, even when introducing something completely new.

Because by saying right at the end of my sentences, whatever I say is automatically more understandable -- right? -- even if you didn't know anything about it before I talked about it, right? Let's illustrate, right? I can boldly claim to know the world's population in the year 2030 -- right? -- and even though it's preposterous that I could know such a thing -- right? -- by saying "right" you find me more credible and helpful, right? Because if I say right at the end of my sentences -- right? -- you will feel assured and believe me, right?

You're right. He's grown on me as I've continued through the lectures.

The "right" stuff is so spot on. I hadn't consciously noticed it until you mentioned it.

[hous]

I do bad on the essays. I got my first graded essay back and I'm almost positive that I was below median. I missed the key group of issues... I feel like crap.

It was a tort essay and I talked about negligence, vicarious liability, and strict product liability. I missed warranties completely and didn't have enough time to discuss negligence as a product liability claim. Both just slipped my mind. I took it under test conditions but I really don't think I would have mentioned warranties even if I took my time. Its just something I overlooked in studying so I will have to go back through it. I got the other issues but I missed the big ones, warranties.

I do pretty well on all the multiple choice questions though, I always have. Recently I have been averaging around 80% on each subject, and close to 90% on Florida. I wonder if being strong on multiple choice and blowing it on the essay will be sufficient to pass.

[AIpwns]

Alright, so I created this account just to ask you guys your opinion. I took and passed the a bar exam in July 2013. Now, I am working full time and doing Themis for FL. I recently received my graded essay on Torts and received a 24/100. The commentary, if anything, was lacking. I felt like I received a bolierplate response that they sent out to everyone regarding CRAC and issue spotting. I feel like I am strong in both of those areas. I read the sample answer and still feel confident that my score would have AT LEAST been passing on the real thing. Anyone else experience this? I know that Themis probably grades low for the people that might say "Oh I passed the first Torts essay I did, I don't have to study it anymore!" but to give such a low score is not encouraging, but simply demoralizing.

[Shawshank33]

Alright, so I created this account just to ask you guys your opinion. I took and passed the a bar exam in July 2013. Now, I am working full time and doing Themis for FL. I recently received my graded essay on Torts and received a 24/100. The commentary, if anything, was lacking. I felt like I received a bolierplate response that they sent out to everyone regarding CRAC and issue spotting. I feel like I am strong in both of those areas. I read the sample answer and still feel confident that my score would have AT LEAST been passing on the real thing. Anyone else experience this? I know that Themis probably grades low for the people that might say "Oh I passed the first Torts essay I did, I don't have to study it anymore!" but to give such a low score is not encouraging, but simply demoralizing.

I'm doing Themis for FL and my comments were generic as well. " Themis uses the same grading scale as the Bar. However, we try to grade you all rather harshly so you are over- rather than under-prepared." - my advisor. I honestly wouldn't take the scores too seriously and just keep checking your progress/comparing your answers to the model ones.

[whirledpeas86]

I also have a question about the graded essays. I just got my first graded essay back last night and the feedback was underwhelming at best. I got a 16/20, but have no idea how that stacks up against anyone else, what I'm supposed to be shooting for, or how that converts into points on the real thing. Also, the feedback I got was abkut as cursory as you can get. The only feedback I saw from my grader was red highlighted sentences directly on my original, amounting to MAYBE two full sentences of critique, nothing about structure, or analysis, just pointing out a couple places where I got the law wrong (duh dude, I made half that shit up) and one place where I didn't mention something I should have. Do I just have a particularly shitty grader? Can I get in touch with Themis to get better feedback? I just feel like there must be something I'm missing!