MBE average score at 33-year low Forum

[KTnKT]

[StaceyS]

Seriously. There is a reason people hate lawyers.

[ReachTheBar79]

My friend. If you don't think that after practicing for 8 years and building a pretty substantial client base that I am not keenly aware of what clients want, you're sadly mistaking. When you have the confidence and the cache (and more importantly the record) to sit down with a business owner and tell him you'll need $75,000 up front to get started; then I'll gladly listen to your opinion about what clients want. Until then, pull up a chair Jr. And pick that mic up off the floor because you didn't drop shit.

What clients want, particularly the ones that can afford to pay me over $400 an hour, is to win. They want a fucking killer that can win for them. One way or another - they want to win or they want to know right away that they can't win and how best to navigate a bad situation. Whatever contest it is, a trial, an appeal or the bar exam. Just win. I once passed a bar exam with 12 hours of studying after being out of school for 4 years. Again, common theme: win.

The win at all costs / killer instinct is something that allows you to over prepare when you're tired or just not into it, to track down the information in a case that no one else will and to just come out on top no matter what.

Want to know what they don't want to hear about? Excuses. The bar got harder. Boo hoo. They changed the questions around a little! My pinky toe hurt when I say for the test. Whaaa.

But you're probably right. I'm sure you know exactly what clients want.

I'm sadly "mistaking"? You mean mistaken.

You sound like a tool. Killer instinct...? Really? Hah.

All I said is that it is my opinion that the bar exam does not measure the true skill set needed to be a great attorney.

Just because someone is an attorney does not mean that he or she knows what a client wants. It is true that some attorneys know what clients want, but your implication that you know more about what clients want because you are an attorney (allegedly) is incorrect. Many non-attorneys know what clients want. Clients don't care about the multiple choice abilities of their attorneys, which is what the bar tests. Clients want to have legal issues solved. Period.

The bar exam is a hard test. This is a forum for bar takers/passers and people who want to share their experiences. Don't put others down and minimize their experiences. These people aren't crying "boo hoo" as you state.

There is one important skill that is needed in the practice of law: empathy. You are demonstrating that you lack empathy for your fellow bar takers. Best of luck to you. If the bar is so easy for you, why are you posting on a forum about the 33 year record low of the exam (Rhetorical question because I really don't care)?

- Peace from a female, NOT jr, bar taker

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

Bar doesn't stress me out even one bit. I could sit down and pass one tomorrow.

Dude, I don't even have skin in this game, but as someone who took, studied for and passed multiple bars as well, your comment is uncalled for and not appropriate to those who just had a bad day out there, made a mistake or otherwise. Shit happens to good/smart/hardworking people all the time, including probably yourself, so grow up already and give positive thinking a chance my man.

And, I get this attitude is sort of your schtick, but not the place or time.

[Sps2016]

Thank you WhiteCollarBlueShirt! Given the topic of the forum, discussion is warranted. However, staying positive and mature is important. Spreading a little positivity on a Friday

[Tanicius]

Reasonable Man is either parodying Donald Trump or they're an ass. Either way, the bar is worthless and is deliberately designed to do nothing more than arbitrarily cull a percentage of law graduates from the market. Studying for the bar makes you a worse lawyer because it teaches you techniques and law that are harmful to your ability to practice real law. They may or may not be one of those 1% of test takers who can just effortlessly logic their way through the exam, but that kind of trait has no bearing on how most people take the bar and it doesn't change the damage the bar exam does to perfectly competent graduates' careers.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't think the bar is at all relevant to someone's practice ability, but it is weird to tell someone who's practiced for 8 years that they're not in a position to know what clients want.

[salsahips]

My friend. If you don't think that after practicing for 8 years and building a pretty substantial client base that I am not keenly aware of what clients want, you're sadly mistaking. When you have the confidence and the cache (and more importantly the record) to sit down with a business owner and tell him you'll need $75,000 up front to get started; then I'll gladly listen to your opinion about what clients want. Until then, pull up a chair Jr. And pick that mic up off the floor because you didn't drop shit.

What clients want, particularly the ones that can afford to pay me over $400 an hour, is to win. They want a fucking killer that can win for them. One way or another - they want to win or they want to know right away that they can't win and how best to navigate a bad situation. Whatever contest it is, a trial, an appeal or the bar exam. Just win. I once passed a bar exam with 12 hours of studying after being out of school for 4 years. Again, common theme: win.

The win at all costs / killer instinct is something that allows you to over prepare when you're tired or just not into it, to track down the information in a case that no one else will and to just come out on top no matter what.

Want to know what they don't want to hear about? Excuses. The bar got harder. Boo hoo. They changed the questions around a little! My pinky toe hurt when I say for the test. Whaaa.

But you're probably right. I'm sure you know exactly what clients want.

Partick. Bateman.

If he had a less scary, more comical half-brother who always wanted to be Patrick but could never get over his repugnance of blood.

[1styearlateral]

I don't think the bar is at all relevant to someone's practice ability, but it is weird to tell someone who's practiced for 8 years that they're not in a position to know what clients want.

Idk... I know plenty of 8+ year associates who just "don't get it." I'm not saying Reasonable Man is one of those people, but I wouldn't necessarily state that years invested automatically = competent/business savvy.

But yeah, the bar exam is bullshit and needs to be rethought. There were some brilliant and a hardworking people in my graduating class who failed the bar, and some lazy and just straight incompetent people who passed. Definitely makes you wonder what's going on there.

[Em_Banc]

Reasonable Man is either parodying Donald Trump or they're an ass. Either way, the bar is worthless and is deliberately designed to do nothing more than arbitrarily cull a percentage of law graduates from the market. Studying for the bar makes you a worse lawyer because it teaches you techniques and law that are harmful to your ability to practice real law. They may or may not be one of those 1% of test takers who can just effortlessly logic their way through the exam, but that kind of trait has no bearing on how most people take the bar and it doesn't change the damage the bar exam does to perfectly competent graduates' careers.

This, this x58372938572924.

[Em_Banc]

I don't think the bar is at all relevant to someone's practice ability, but it is weird to tell someone who's practiced for 8 years that they're not in a position to know what clients want.

Idk... I know plenty of 8+ year associates who just "don't get it." I'm not saying Reasonable Man is one of those people, but I wouldn't necessarily state that years invested automatically = competent/business savvy.

But yeah, the bar exam is bullshit and needs to be rethought. There were some brilliant and a hardworking people in my graduating class who failed the bar, and some lazy and just straight incompetent people who passed. Definitely makes you wonder what's going on there.

Again, this x9838550930193.

[DueProcessDoWheelies]

Bar doesn't stress me out even one bit. I could sit down and pass one tomorrow.

We get it, you're so much smarter and so much better than all of us.

[ReachTheBar79]

I don't think the bar is at all relevant to someone's practice ability, but it is weird to tell someone who's practiced for 8 years that they're not in a position to know what clients want.

No one said that someone who practiced for 8 years doesn't know what clients want. All that was said is that just because someone has practiced for 8 years doesn't mean that he knows more about what clients want than anyone else.

[THE_U]

I don't think the bar is at all relevant to someone's practice ability, but it is weird to tell someone who's practiced for 8 years that they're not in a position to know what clients want.

It's weird to be a practicing attorney for 8 years, who can pass a bar exam at will, and be trolling a bar-exam preparation forum.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't think the bar is at all relevant to someone's practice ability, but it is weird to tell someone who's practiced for 8 years that they're not in a position to know what clients want.

No one said that someone who practiced for 8 years doesn't know what clients want. All that was said is that just because someone has practiced for 8 years doesn't mean that he knows more about what clients want than anyone else.

Then I'll clarify that it seemed weird for someone who hasn't practiced to be challenging someone who has.

I'm not saying RM wasn't being a dick in other ways but I think he was getting antagonized.

[ReachTheBar79]

I don't think the bar is at all relevant to someone's practice ability, but it is weird to tell someone who's practiced for 8 years that they're not in a position to know what clients want.

No one said that someone who practiced for 8 years doesn't know what clients want. All that was said is that just because someone has practiced for 8 years doesn't mean that he knows more about what clients want than anyone else.

Then I'll clarify that it seemed weird for someone who hasn't practiced to be challenging someone who has.

I'm not saying RM wasn't being a dick in other ways but I think he was getting antagonized.

Yeah a guy who says that he could pass any bar exam was being antagonized. Sounds about right. Haha.

Someone who has practiced law can be challenged. No one is on a pedestal here.

[DueProcessDoWheelies]

I don't think the bar is at all relevant to someone's practice ability, but it is weird to tell someone who's practiced for 8 years that they're not in a position to know what clients want.

No one said that someone who practiced for 8 years doesn't know what clients want. All that was said is that just because someone has practiced for 8 years doesn't mean that he knows more about what clients want than anyone else.

Then I'll clarify that it seemed weird for someone who hasn't practiced to be challenging someone who has.

I'm not saying RM wasn't being a dick in other ways but I think he was getting antagonized.

Yeah a guy who says that he could pass any bar exam was being antagonized. Sounds about right. Haha.

Someone who has practiced law can be challenged. No one is on a pedestal here.

Yet another reminder as to why people don't like lawyers.

[ReachTheBar79]

I don't think the bar is at all relevant to someone's practice ability, but it is weird to tell someone who's practiced for 8 years that they're not in a position to know what clients want.

No one said that someone who practiced for 8 years doesn't know what clients want. All that was said is that just because someone has practiced for 8 years doesn't mean that he knows more about what clients want than anyone else.

Then I'll clarify that it seemed weird for someone who hasn't practiced to be challenging someone who has.

I'm not saying RM wasn't being a dick in other ways but I think he was getting antagonized.

Yeah a guy who says that he could pass any bar exam was being antagonized. Sounds about right. Haha.

Someone who has practiced law can be challenged. No one is on a pedestal here.

Yet another reminder as to why people don't like lawyers.

Are you referring to what I am saying or what someone else is saying?

[DueProcessDoWheelies]

Are you referring to what I am saying or what someone else is saying?

What the other guy said. Being a know-it-all and bragging about how he can pass the bar while drunk, blindfolded, and sleep-deprived.

[PersonalInjuryLawyer]

[ReachTheBar79]

Are you referring to what I am saying or what someone else is saying?

What the other guy said. Being a know-it-all and bragging about how he can pass the bar while drunk, blindfolded, and sleep-deprived.

I know, right?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't think the bar is at all relevant to someone's practice ability, but it is weird to tell someone who's practiced for 8 years that they're not in a position to know what clients want.

No one said that someone who practiced for 8 years doesn't know what clients want. All that was said is that just because someone has practiced for 8 years doesn't mean that he knows more about what clients want than anyone else.

Then I'll clarify that it seemed weird for someone who hasn't practiced to be challenging someone who has.

I'm not saying RM wasn't being a dick in other ways but I think he was getting antagonized.

Yeah a guy who says that he could pass any bar exam was being antagonized. Sounds about right. Haha.

Someone who has practiced law can be challenged. No one is on a pedestal here.

All I'm saying is that he didn't go down that road until you dismissed his experience, and the passage someone bolded earlier did come across as a slam on his intelligence.

Again, he was being a jerk, but not without any provocation.

[sjwest]

Sooo....

I hear MBE Results are at a 33-year low?! /s

[Eager Beaver]

I don't think the bar is at all relevant to someone's practice ability, but it is weird to tell someone who's practiced for 8 years that they're not in a position to know what clients want.

Unless that person is positing that clients actually give a damn about whether you passed the bar on your first or second attempt. I'm not reasonable_man or one of his clients, so I honestly don't know what they discuss, however.

And while I agree with reasonable_man that one thing clients do want is results, I fail to see how that's relevant in a discussion pertaining to whether the MBE is an adequate measure of one's suitability to practice law. 'Winning' at the MBE and 'Winning' for clients involve two different skill sets, even if tenacity and dogged work ethic are components of both. Seems like a logical reasoning fail to me. It's an apples to oranges comparison with the only similarity being they're both fruits, or that both can be juiced.

EDIT: Just saw your clarifications, so disregard the above. Still, a reasonable_man began his argument with an apples to oranges comparison, so questioning how his client interactions made him an authority on the validity of the MBE seemed fairly valid.

[Metal_Inquisition]

What bothers me most about the nonsense Erica Moeser keeps spouting about the quality of law students declining is that she's a graduate from the only state we have that doesn't require one to take the exam to be admitted to the bar. Seems so... wrong... to spout off about how new generations of law students just aren't "capable" of taking an exam when you're from a state that doesn't even administer it to its graduates. And may not have even taken it yourself.

For real, though. Wtf Erica.