July 2015 MBE Scores/Results Forum

[odoylerulez]

Am I the only one that has apathy towards this whole NCBE v LS deans/student quality discussion? I know it's a way for us type A people to vent about how unfair of a process it is, but frankly it's a process we have to deal with.

Thousands of people pass these exams every couple of months. We need to stop worrying about what we can't control, and at the end of the day we should hold ourselves accountable and pass the freakin' test. Have some confidence in yourselves, work hard, and give the bar examiners the middle finger when you pass.

I tend to agree.

But, after hearing about some of the people that passed in my jurisdiction, I almost felt like the test NEEDS to be much harder -- or at least drastically changed. Knowing some of the names that are about to be admitted in my jurisdiction downright scares me.

Maybe the issue is that the bar exam just tests an entirely different set of skills than those that make a good lawyer -- meaning, some pass that never should, and some fail that never should.

[mike.alexander23]

Am I the only one that has apathy towards this whole NCBE v LS deans/student quality discussion? I know it's a way for us type A people to vent about how unfair of a process it is, but frankly it's a process we have to deal with.

Thousands of people pass these exams every couple of months. We need to stop worrying about what we can't control, and at the end of the day we should hold ourselves accountable and pass the freakin' test. Have some confidence in yourselves, work hard, and give the bar examiners the middle finger when you pass.

Personally, I reject the notion that the bar exam is just "a process we have to deal with." Honestly, I don't have to deal with it ever again because I passed, but that shouldn't mean that I should stop caring about what I think is a completely arbitrary exam. I don't want anybody foreclosed from practicing law--after spending three years and untold thousands of dollars--because the NCBE is creating an exam that cannot reasonably be prepared for and which has little (if any) bearing on real lawyering skills. It's all bullshit.

No doubt there should be a licensing exam: we all went to law school with people who we wouldn't trust to do anything. But it is kind of inconceivable to me that the overwhelming majority of practitioners and judges would bomb an exam described as a "minimum competency test" if it were put in front of them today.

The people who need to be more accountable are at the NCBE.

True, it is an arbitrary exam. However, I think the notion that it's meant to weed out incompetent people from practicing law is merely a facade to hide that it's merely a gatekeeper mechanism to minimize the supply of lawyers. I think the mechanism that better accounts for competency is malpractice claims.

I think we all know that this exam is BS. It's not meant to test your ability to practice. So let's stop getting upset when it does exactly what it's supposed to do.

[Veridian40]

FWIW Kentucky results have been made official. Here's the link for anyone who's interested - http://courts.ky.gov/courts/supreme/Doc ... ssList.pdf.

Pass rate was 71%, which is down 5% from last July. Kentucky is somewhat unique in that it requires the essay section and the MBE to be passed independently of one another, and the vast majority of people who failed only failed the MBE.

[TwoBars]

Am I the only one that has apathy towards this whole NCBE v LS deans/student quality discussion? I know it's a way for us type A people to vent about how unfair of a process it is, but frankly it's a process we have to deal with.

Thousands of people pass these exams every couple of months. We need to stop worrying about what we can't control, and at the end of the day we should hold ourselves accountable and pass the freakin' test. Have some confidence in yourselves, work hard, and give the bar examiners the middle finger when you pass.

I agree for the most part. The fact is you must pass the bar exam to practice law. Has the exam gotten more difficult? I don't know (I passed one in 2011 and in 2015 and never failed one). Have pass rates dropped? Yes. It can be for a variety of reasons. IMO I think that the technology available today is having an effect on students overall, not just law students. Being on a laptop or smartphone all the time is bad for learning. Taking notes on a computer is not the same as using a pen and paper. When handwriting, there is virtually no way to write everything down so you must pay attention and note the most important points. People on laptops can virtually type everything that is said in a lecture. However, they are not really listening and digesting the lecture, simply regurgitating the words to the computer. IMO, There is a loss of learning using a laptop to take notes.

I think a bigger part of the lower pass rates is the quality of student. All you have to do is look at the Florida pass statistics and it is clear the unranked schools barely get a 50% pass rate while the ranked schools pass at or above the statistical averages. While there are very smart students at all law schools, generally speaking there are far fewer at the unranked schools.

I would like to see how pass rates have changed for students at top-tier law schools. Have these schools seen the same drop in passing rates as the unranked schools?

[MonsterTRM]

Indiana posted its finalized statistics for the July 2015 Bar exam, and the overall passage rate did not change from 2014 to 2015. http://www.in.gov/judiciary/ble/2361.htm

Maybe good news for those of you still waiting!

[robinhoodOO]

But, after hearing about some of the people that passed in my jurisdiction, I almost felt like the test NEEDS to be much harder -- or at least drastically changed. Knowing some of the names that are about to be admitted in my jurisdiction downright scares me.

Knowing some of the people I've seen as OPC, and seeing firsthand how they practice, as I've clerked has already beaten down my optimism about the profession--haha. I don't know if it needs to be harder, but definitely changed.

[robinhoodOO]

I think the mechanism that better accounts for competency is malpractice claims.

I'll disagree for two reasons:

(1) Many people violate ethical duties/obligations on a daily basis, and commit malpractice often, all without any actual malpractice claim filed and/or made apparent to the attorney's respective state bar. That's just reality. I've heard about it and I've seen it firsthand.

(2) If that's the basis for judging competency, you're doing it wrong (IMO). Actually committing malpractice and a client/ex-client taking action against you should be last resort and occur rarely, as opposed to acting as 'gate-keeping' for minimum competency. There has to be a sufficient system for preventing such drastic remedies/results from the outset.

[Danger Zone]

Stop shitting up this thread with your useless opinions

#justthefactsmaam

[BuenAbogado]

Stop shitting up this thread with your useless opinions

#justthefactsmaam

What about those that are useful?

[Danger Zone]

I don't remember reading anything like that

[kyle010723]

Honestly for the rest of us still waiting and presumably for some of the ones that already have their results, whether the MBE is indeed harder or not is a nonissue. We still have to pass one way or another.

[mike.alexander23]

Honestly for the rest of us still waiting and presumably for some of the ones that already have their results, whether the MBE is indeed harder or not is a nonissue. We still have to pass one way or another.

Exactly. I'm here just to see if all those scores during bar prep meant anything.

[marztri]

Honestly for the rest of us still waiting and presumably for some of the ones that already have their results, whether the MBE is indeed harder or not is a nonissue. We still have to pass one way or another.

Agreed. All this speculation that it's got harder is making the anxiety of waiting worse. This thread was suppose to be about how people did and how they felt after it, not about debating if law students are less competent.

[robinhoodOO]

Agreed. All this speculation that it's got harder is making the anxiety of waiting worse. This thread was suppose to be about how people did and how they felt after it, not about debating if law students are less competent.

On that note, California takers can further wonder whether they passed by re-looking at the PT's and essays they took (finally published): http://admissions.calbar.ca.gov/Portals ... stions.pdf

[Mina_2015]

Update (60 reporting): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Also, if you scroll right, you'll see numbers for courses and states. Still working on an actual graph/chart.

Congrats to those who have passed!

I want to report... I took the Florida bar and passed! I scored a 98 on the Barbri midterm and 137 on the actually mbe. I thought the mbe was really hard and don't remember half the questions..however I passed!!!!

[Diceman102]

Dear NY bar takers, the month of October will soon be upon us. I am guessing the results will be out earlier in the month since fewer people took the July exam.

[Diceman102]

Update (60 reporting): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Also, if you scroll right, you'll see numbers for courses and states. Still working on an actual graph/chart.

Congrats to those who have passed!

I want to report... I took the Florida bar and passed! I scored a 98 on the Barbri midterm and 137 on the actually mbe. I thought the mbe was really hard and don't remember half the questions..however I passed!!!!

Congrats!

[trustmouse83]

Dear NY bar takers, the month of October will soon be upon us. I am guessing the results will be out earlier in the month since fewer people took the July exam.

Agreed.

[motiontodismizz]

Update (60 reporting): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Also, if you scroll right, you'll see numbers for courses and states. Still working on an actual graph/chart.

Congrats to those who have passed!

I want to report... I took the Florida bar and passed! I scored a 98 on the Barbri midterm and 137 on the actually mbe. I thought the mbe was really hard and don't remember half the questions..however I passed!!!!

That is a big jump! Congrats!

[K Rock]

https://www.ilbaradmissions.org/percent ... -july-2015

Here is the Illinois percentile equivalent chart for this exam. Both MBE and essays.

[charlesxavier]

1 month until Ohio results come out. Some attorneys I know keep asking me how I feel. It's weird. Of course, im nervous about failing but I feel pretty confident. The thing that makes me more nervous is that I won't know what to do differently next time. I did almost all of the barbri program, received passing grades on everything I submitted and did well above average on the practice MBE. It's not like I took a vacation, screwed around, or was underperforming on what I did. Plus, nothing on the exam caught me by surprise (MBE felt tough but not impossible and it's only worth 1/3). Anyone else have that "what else could I do?" concern?

[UVAIce]

So I thought I would throw in my two cents: the reason I care about the MBE screwing everyone else is that I, and many others, took the bar exam in states that scale their essay score to the mean national MBE score to normalize essay scores over time.

For example, in my jurisdiction (Virginia) you need a total score of 140 to pass with 60% of your score being the essay portion of the bar exam and 40% being the MBE. So if the national average MBE score is below a 140 that means writing an "average" essay sets you up to fail the bar exam. That's just not a fun place to be when Virginia has a bazillion topics that are testable on the essay day.

I've been vacillating between confident about the bar exam and not very confident - mostly because I just have no idea how the MBE went. And even if I pass, and the fact is that I probably will, I think it's a little stupid that some people won't simply because their peers did poorly on a fairly BS multiple choice exam.

[mike.alexander23]

1 month until Ohio results come out. Some attorneys I know keep asking me how I feel. It's weird. Of course, im nervous about failing but I feel pretty confident. The thing that makes me more nervous is that I won't know what to do differently next time. I did almost all of the barbri program, received passing grades on everything I submitted and did well above average on the practice MBE. It's not like I took a vacation, screwed around, or was underperforming on what I did. Plus, nothing on the exam caught me by surprise (MBE felt tough but not impossible and it's only worth 1/3). Anyone else have that "what else could I do?" concern?

I'm 100% with you here. I used Themis and did ~90% of the course, averaged 70-75s on my graded essays, 72% on my MBE practice questions, and got a ~150 on my simulated MBE exam. So, like you, I feel confident but what haunts me and gives me anxiety is not knowing what I did wrong and what I would change.

I guess I wouldn't use Themis? Lolz

[mike.alexander23]

So I thought I would throw in my two cents: the reason I care about the MBE screwing everyone else is that I, and many others, took the bar exam in states that scale their essay score to the mean national MBE score to normalize essay scores over time.

For example, in my jurisdiction (Virginia) you need a total score of 140 to pass with 60% of your score being the essay portion of the bar exam and 40% being the MBE. So if the national average MBE score is below a 140 that means writing an "average" essay sets you up to fail the bar exam. That's just not a fun place to be when Virginia has a bazillion topics that are testable on the essay day.

I've been vacillating between confident about the bar exam and not very confident - mostly because I just have no idea how the MBE went. And even if I pass, and the fact is that I probably will, I think it's a little stupid that some people won't simply because their peers did poorly on a fairly BS multiple choice exam.

Interesting. Does anyone know if California does this too?

[starryski]

Dear NY bar takers, the month of October will soon be upon us. I am guessing the results will be out earlier in the month since fewer people took the July exam.

Agreed.