BarBri - NY Exam - July 2014 Forum

[Helpful]

According to the Separac matrix based on the July 2013 exam, if you get a raw score of 143 on the MBE (75% of 190), you can average a 44 on the essays/MPT and 10 NYMC correct and still pass with a 669. If you average a 50 on the essays/MPT, you can literally get zero NYMC correct. If you get a 130 on the MBE, you can pass with an average of a 47 on the essays/MPT and 10 NYMC correct. This gives me hope.

This would be reassuring given that my MBE has been consistently in that sort of range, however, it's still concerning to me that I have no idea what a "44" looks like. There are definitely still some essays I see where I have no idea what the rule is. Maybe I could make up for that with an above average performance on other essays but it's difficult to tell. Does anyone know how difficult it is to get a "44"?

[turquoiseturtle]

According to the Separac matrix based on the July 2013 exam, if you get a raw score of 143 on the MBE (75% of 190), you can average a 44 on the essays/MPT and 10 NYMC correct and still pass with a 669. If you average a 50 on the essays/MPT, you can literally get zero NYMC correct. If you get a 130 on the MBE, you can pass with an average of a 47 on the essays/MPT and 10 NYMC correct. This gives me hope.

This would be reassuring given that my MBE has been consistently in that sort of range, however, it's still concerning to me that I have no idea what a "44" looks like. There are definitely still some essays I see where I have no idea what the rule is. Maybe I could make up for that with an above average performance on other essays but it's difficult to tell. Does anyone know how difficult it is to get a "44"?

Have you been reading all of the essays in NYT with the student "above average" answers? If you want, I can cite some of the ones with flat out wrong rule statements I've come across, or ones that are (comparatively) poorly written or reasoned. I've just been reading all of them. I mentioned early that example of the secured transaction one where there were TOTALLY opposite rule statements, and both were "above average."

I would be very curious to know what scores the "above average" examples actually got. Clearly above average is enough to pass, but by how much above are these? Some of them are good, but some of the essays are not great and if those are considered "above average" what do the average ones look like? Or even below average, because slightly below average is still passing!

[thetashster]

According to the Separac matrix based on the July 2013 exam, if you get a raw score of 143 on the MBE (75% of 190), you can average a 44 on the essays/MPT and 10 NYMC correct and still pass with a 669. If you average a 50 on the essays/MPT, you can literally get zero NYMC correct. If you get a 130 on the MBE, you can pass with an average of a 47 on the essays/MPT and 10 NYMC correct. This gives me hope.

This would be reassuring given that my MBE has been consistently in that sort of range, however, it's still concerning to me that I have no idea what a "44" looks like. There are definitely still some essays I see where I have no idea what the rule is. Maybe I could make up for that with an above average performance on other essays but it's difficult to tell. Does anyone know how difficult it is to get a "44"?

Found this online:


associatex (Apr 23, 2012 - 1:49 pm)

Its going to depend on the curve.

I am a former essay grader for Bar/Bri - so I know how the points are allocated. Its going to come down to how many points you get on the essay overall.

Example: if its a Contracts essay which tests 3 rules : (1) Elements of a K, (2) Anticipatory Breach and (3) Remedies under UCC.

If you get all 3 main issues (IRAC-ing each one), you're looking at a minimum of at least a 3. If you flesh out the Rules, applying each rule to each fact for every sub-section, you're boosting that up to a 4. If you end up spotting sub-issues or adding in rules like "This falls under the UCC because ___, however under common law contract, the buyer or sellers remedy would ___."= thats another 1 point there.

I'll be frank. Getting a 6 is not an easy score to get. Most essays get a score between 45.00 and 55.00 (essays are scaled so in reality, a score of 42.75 translates to a "4" on that essay).

In order to get a 6, you would need to spot:

a- every major issue tested in the fact pattern
b- apply every element of the law to each fact in the question, including exceptions under the rules
c- developing your analysis of the fact pattern applying all the rules
d- pointing out the sub-issues and how they would change/or not change the final result
e- reaching the correct logical conclusion

If you want to guess-timate, I would ask you to count how many paragraphs you wrote for each "main" issue.

In my hypo above, if the 1st question is "was there a contract?" - there may be as many as 4.0 points (out of 10.00) allocated for that specific issue that are available with most takers getting a 2.8 score on it. This means to get the full 4.0 points, the grader's key will look like:

1- are elements of contract spelled out? (1 point)
2- any discussion of difference between UCC and common law (1/2 point)
3- did taker spot potential statute of limitations issue and rule it out as non-applicable (1 point)
4- did analysis discuss each element and state how it did or did not apply? (2 points)
5- did essay identify the correct outcome and solution? (1/2 point).

Total = 4 points

Other Misc Points that could be added to this essay:

(1) did essay talk about CPLR's SJM standard or standard under Motion to Dismiss? (1 point)

(2) did essay pick up on the fact that 1 party was 18 years old, and if K had been executed when buyer was 17, the result could have been different? (1 point)

Issue # 2 of essay...and so on..

[Helpful]

According to the Separac matrix based on the July 2013 exam, if you get a raw score of 143 on the MBE (75% of 190), you can average a 44 on the essays/MPT and 10 NYMC correct and still pass with a 669. If you average a 50 on the essays/MPT, you can literally get zero NYMC correct. If you get a 130 on the MBE, you can pass with an average of a 47 on the essays/MPT and 10 NYMC correct. This gives me hope.

This would be reassuring given that my MBE has been consistently in that sort of range, however, it's still concerning to me that I have no idea what a "44" looks like. There are definitely still some essays I see where I have no idea what the rule is. Maybe I could make up for that with an above average performance on other essays but it's difficult to tell. Does anyone know how difficult it is to get a "44"?

Have you been reading all of the essays in NYT with the student "above average" answers? If you want, I can cite some of the ones with flat out wrong rule statements I've come across, or ones that are (comparatively) poorly written or reasoned. I've just been reading all of them. I mentioned early that example of the secured transaction one where there were TOTALLY opposite rule statements, and both were "above average."

I would be very curious to know what scores the "above average" examples actually got. Clearly above average is enough to pass, but by how much above are these? Some of them are good, but some of the essays are not great and if those are considered "above average" what do the average ones look like? Or even below average, because slightly below average is still passing!

Yes, I have, and clearly there is some room for error. I was just making the same point you're making in your second paragraph. I wonder what they are on the 1 - 10 scale.

Found this online:

This was very helpful, and sort of what I was looking for -- thanks. Two points though: 1) Seperac's raw-scaled essay calculator seems to disagree with his conversion (Seperac seems much more generous) and 2) I know it's well-known that it's "impossible" to get above a 5, but they are graded on a 10 scale, and that post barely even indicates how one would score higher. It almost seems to suggest that mentioning hypothetical facts that are not given in the fact pattern would score points, which seems strange to me.

[turquoiseturtle]

According to the Separac matrix based on the July 2013 exam, if you get a raw score of 143 on the MBE (75% of 190), you can average a 44 on the essays/MPT and 10 NYMC correct and still pass with a 669. If you average a 50 on the essays/MPT, you can literally get zero NYMC correct. If you get a 130 on the MBE, you can pass with an average of a 47 on the essays/MPT and 10 NYMC correct. This gives me hope.

This would be reassuring given that my MBE has been consistently in that sort of range, however, it's still concerning to me that I have no idea what a "44" looks like. There are definitely still some essays I see where I have no idea what the rule is. Maybe I could make up for that with an above average performance on other essays but it's difficult to tell. Does anyone know how difficult it is to get a "44"?

Have you been reading all of the essays in NYT with the student "above average" answers? If you want, I can cite some of the ones with flat out wrong rule statements I've come across, or ones that are (comparatively) poorly written or reasoned. I've just been reading all of them. I mentioned early that example of the secured transaction one where there were TOTALLY opposite rule statements, and both were "above average."

I would be very curious to know what scores the "above average" examples actually got. Clearly above average is enough to pass, but by how much above are these? Some of them are good, but some of the essays are not great and if those are considered "above average" what do the average ones look like? Or even below average, because slightly below average is still passing!

Yes, I have, and clearly there is some room for error. I was just making the same point you're making in your second paragraph. I wonder what they are on the 1 - 10 scale.

Found this online:

This was very helpful, and sort of what I was looking for -- thanks. Two points though: 1) Seperac's raw-scaled essay calculator seems to disagree with his conversion (Seperac seems much more generous) and 2) I know it's well-known that it's "impossible" to get above a 5, but they are graded on a 10 scale, and that post barely even indicates how one would score higher. It almost seems to suggest that mentioning hypothetical facts that are not given in the fact pattern would score points, which seems strange to me.

Is there even any information about what the actual average is? I know again on the Seperac website clearly he's coming up somewhere with those averages, but is there any evidence of what the actual average that these essays are better than? A 4? a 5?

[thetashster]

i know we're supposed to aim to pass

but with things like that, it's starting to feel like just passing is going to be nearly impossible.

[Helpful]

i know we're supposed to aim to pass

but with things like that, it's starting to feel like just passing is going to be nearly impossible.

I think it's on the right track, but I sort of doubt the accuracy of it somewhat. For one, FWIW, Seperac converts a raw 3 to about 44 (although it obviously depends on weighting/the curve). And second, given that the "best" answers so often differ in their conclusions, I'm not sure how true it is you'd need to reach the "correct logical conclusion" just to get a 6.

[5ky]

Listen, like 80% of people get a 5. Unless you literally guess on the entire essay you will be okay.

[turquoiseturtle]

Listen, like 80% of people get a 5. Unless you literally guess on the entire essay you will be okay.

Always the voice of reason in here!

[peanut123]

So then would Barbri grades of 60-80 be totally unrealistic (i.e., virtually unattainable on the real day)?

[PennBull]

So then would Barbri grades of 60-80 be totally unrealistic (i.e., virtually unattainable on the real day)?

On the mbe? I think you can expect to get twenty-thirty questions more right than the barbri sample mbe

[peanut123]

So then would Barbri grades of 60-80 be totally unrealistic (i.e., virtually unattainable on the real day)?

On the mbe? I think you can expect to get twenty-thirty questions more right than the barbri sample mbe

I'm sorry - totally unclear on that. I meant on the essays, to piggyback off of the discussion on essay grading.

But that's good to hear too!

[encore1101]

That post by the former Barbri grader seems like it encourages a brain dump of information that may not even be present in the fact pattern ("But if one of the parties to the contract was under 18, the result would be different!").

[turquoiseturtle]

That post by the former Barbri grader seems like it encourages a brain dump of information that may not even be present in the fact pattern ("But if one of the parties to the contract was under 18, the result would be different!").

Obviously that post is from a Barbri grader, so maybe they sort of know what they're talking about... but that seems wrong to me. Almost none of the "above average" essays do that. They very much stick to the facts and if the issue is relatively clear, some of them are really really short and direct. I am absolutely not planning to brain dump like I did in law school.

[PennBull]

There are too many posters without avatars I can't keep y'all straight haha

[Stringer6]

That post by the former Barbri grader seems like it encourages a brain dump of information that may not even be present in the fact pattern ("But if one of the parties to the contract was under 18, the result would be different!").

Obviously that post is from a Barbri grader, so maybe they sort of know what they're talking about... but that seems wrong to me. Almost none of the "above average" essays do that. They very much stick to the facts and if the issue is relatively clear, some of them are really really short and direct. I am absolutely not planning to brain dump like I did in law school.

That seemed like BS to me

[pizzasodafries]

Simple K question that I'm not clear on.

In a firm offer situation, rejection of the offer by the offeree never revokes the firm offer and he could always accept the offer up until the time the offer lapses?

In an option K, does a rejection allow for the offer to be revoked before the three months or whatever time is left on option k?

1. An option contract doesn't need to just be for three months. It can't last as long as the parties contract for. Because an option is a contract to keep an offer open, a rejection of or a counteroffer to an option does not constitute a termination of the offer. The offeree is still free to accept the original offer within the option period unless the offeror has detrimentally relied on the offeree’s rejection. (See §37 of Res. 2. K)

2. Firm offers have the three month limitation on them. To my knowledge, I have no idea whether or not a rejection ends the firm offer.

Thanks, sorry for confusing the two

[Guchster]

That post by the former Barbri grader seems like it encourages a brain dump of information that may not even be present in the fact pattern ("But if one of the parties to the contract was under 18, the result would be different!").

Obviously that post is from a Barbri grader, so maybe they sort of know what they're talking about... but that seems wrong to me. Almost none of the "above average" essays do that. They very much stick to the facts and if the issue is relatively clear, some of them are really really short and direct. I am absolutely not planning to brain dump like I did in law school.

That seemed like BS to me

Completely agree. Sorry, I'm going to completely ignore that piece of shitty advice. All it did was add panic and confusion and contradicts most of the sample answers I've read as well as Barbri's essay writing advice per the video we were asked to watch at the beginning of the course.

Barbri essay graders can go eat huge dicks. They need to spend less time playing weird and condescending mind games and more time just giving me objective facts. I wrote almost every single essay with the rules in front of me and basically under timeless conditions (I figured once I knew how to hammer out an essay I could work on speed and memorization). I'm a pretty good essay exam writer and I don't think I improved dramatically at all (looking over my first essay, I can happily say I would be satisfied to write something similar now). Yet my score "magically" jumped from a 55 to an 85. COMPLETE SHIT.

[thetashster]

That post by the former Barbri grader seems like it encourages a brain dump of information that may not even be present in the fact pattern ("But if one of the parties to the contract was under 18, the result would be different!").

Obviously that post is from a Barbri grader, so maybe they sort of know what they're talking about... but that seems wrong to me. Almost none of the "above average" essays do that. They very much stick to the facts and if the issue is relatively clear, some of them are really really short and direct. I am absolutely not planning to brain dump like I did in law school.

That seemed like BS to me

Completely agree. Sorry, I'm going to completely ignore that piece of shitty advice. All it did was add panic and confusion and contradicts most of the sample answers I've read as well as Barbri's essay writing advice per the video we were asked to watch at the beginning of the course.

Barbri essay graders can go eat huge dicks. They need to spend less time playing weird and condescending mind games and more time just giving me objective facts. I wrote almost every single essay with the rules in front of me and basically under timeless conditions (I figured once I knew how to hammer out an essay I could work on speed and memorization). I'm a pretty good essay exam writer and I don't think I improved dramatically at all (looking over my first essay, I can happily say I would be satisfied to write something similar now). Yet my score "magically" jumped from a 55 to an 85. COMPLETE SHIT.

It seemed over the top to me too, but it was worrying nonetheless. I'm also getting a little tired of BarBri's tactics towards the end... rote memorization (actually more like cramming) and then terror and lack of confidence. guess it works though

[pizzasodafries]

So can we bring watches to MBE day? I'll have a heart attack if not, I need to see how I'm pacing since I'm always right up to the gun on timing

[thetashster]

So can we bring watches to MBE day? I'll have a heart attack if not, I need to see how I'm pacing since I'm always right up to the gun on timing

Yes, it wasn't listed as something forbidden for the NY locations. It just can't be a digital or programmable watch.

[Helpful]

Does Examsoft let you move around between the three essays in each session at any time you want? i.e., it's not like you do essay 1 and hit "done" and then can't go back to essay 1 after you do 2 and 3, right?

[pizzasodafries]

I'm seeing from the SFE that a bunch of ConLaw questions give some obscure SCOTUS case as the reasoning for the answer contrary to what we would actually think is the answer applying our notes. Like the prayers allowed before govt or school meetings since a Scotus case said it was allowed. On the MBE what are the odds that we would have to know specific SCOTUS decisions in order to get the correct answer?

[PennBull]

I'm seeing from the SFE that a bunch of ConLaw questions give some obscure SCOTUS case as the reasoning for the answer contrary to what we would actually think is the answer applying our notes. Like the prayers allowed before govt or school meetings since a Scotus case said it was allowed. On the MBE what are the odds that we would have to know specific SCOTUS decisions in order to get the correct answer?

For ConLaw there will definitely be one or two, but I wouldn't worry about it

[StillNDC]

Does Examsoft let you move around between the three essays in each session at any time you want? i.e., it's not like you do essay 1 and hit "done" and then can't go back to essay 1 after you do 2 and 3, right?

I think so. The practice exams allowed you to do that.