July 2015 MBE Scores/Results Forum

[robinhoodOO]

Update (60 reporting): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Also, if you scroll right, you'll see numbers for courses and states. Still working on an actual graph/chart.

Congrats to those who have passed!

[Good Guy Gaud]

Update (60 reporting): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Also, if you scroll right, you'll see numbers for courses and states. Still working on an actual graph/chart.

Congrats to those who have passed!

I appreciate you putting this bad boy together

[robinhoodOO]

I appreciate you putting this bad boy together

Ya, man, no problem. Besides, it has helped me stay sane, so it's not entirely selfless

[FoxCrane]

Kentucky results post today. The requirement to pass is a 132 on the MBE and a 75% average on the essay portion. Although, if you are successful you do not recieve your actual scores.

Only those who fail a portion recieve the score from the failed portion.

I made a 126 on the midterm and a 138 on the barbri final. Hopefully I won't have a MBE score to report when they post.

[charlesxavier]

Kentucky results post today. The requirement to pass is a 132 on the MBE and a 75% average on the essay portion. Although, if you are successful you do not recieve your actual scores.

Only those who fail a portion recieve the score from the failed portion.

I made a 126 on the midterm and a 138 on the barbri final. Hopefully I won't have a MBE score to report when they post.

What was the barbri final? I took the simulated MBE but every other MBE (refresher, etc) seemed to be out of 100...

[texasbar]

ABA reported article

"According to Bloomberg Business, the mean score for the July 2015 multiple choice section was 139.9. July 2014 test takers had a mean score of 141.5 on the multiple choice section, and the section’s mean score for July 2013 was 144.3, the Wall Street Journal Law Blog reported."

Law professors blaming student quality for drop in bar scores:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ekly_email

[kyle010723]

Kentucky results post today. The requirement to pass is a 132 on the MBE and a 75% average on the essay portion. Although, if you are successful you do not recieve your actual scores.

Only those who fail a portion recieve the score from the failed portion.

I made a 126 on the midterm and a 138 on the barbri final. Hopefully I won't have a MBE score to report when they post.

What was the barbri final? I took the simulated MBE but every other MBE (refresher, etc) seemed to be out of 100...

Same, the refresher was out of 100 too. So not sure what the "final" is.

[FoxCrane]

Kentucky results post today. The requirement to pass is a 132 on the MBE and a 75% average on the essay portion. Although, if you are successful you do not recieve your actual scores.

Only those who fail a portion recieve the score from the failed portion.

I made a 126 on the midterm and a 138 on the barbri final. Hopefully I won't have a MBE score to report when they post.

What was the barbri final? I took the simulated MBE but every other MBE (refresher, etc) seemed to be out of 100...

Same, the refresher was out of 100 too. So not sure what the "final" is.

I'm sorry, I misspoke I took an additional kaplan practice test that I bought online. Didn't include CivPro though.

But, KENTUCKY IS OUT and I PASSED. So, I atleast made a 132 on the MBE.

Sorry again for the confusion.

[robinhoodOO]

ABA reported article

"According to Bloomberg Business, the mean score for the July 2015 multiple choice section was 139.9. July 2014 test takers had a mean score of 141.5 on the multiple choice section, and the section’s mean score for July 2013 was 144.3, the Wall Street Journal Law Blog reported."

Law professors blaming student quality for drop in bar scores:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ekly_email

Of course they are...The problem is that there are so many factors that you really have to look at the big picture (i.e. CivPro making its first July appearance!). No mention of this by Ms. Moeser.

Here's another thing, Erica Moeser (NCBE President) stated: "“It was not unexpected,” Erica Moeser, the organization’s president, told the publication. “We are in a period where we can expect to see some decline, until the market for going to law school improves.” That's a pretty big statement of fact, without much actual substantive support.

It drives me crazy that she makes public statements like this with NO accountability, while they also control every aspect of the test without any oversight. It reeks of bias. And, the fact that she doesn't even hint at the other potential causes (i.e. CivPro) is completely disingenuous. I wonder if the NCBE would ever consider an independent audit of their testing and grading practices...

Anyone aware of any substantive causal relationship between pass rates and this alleged decline in the student body? Like, were the average accepted LSAT scores in 2011 and 2012 abysmally low compared to prior years (which would hint at a problem with the student body)?!

*Update (62 reporting): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Also, congrats Fox!

[jaysnooginz]

I just know that for my class year (2015), my law school's median LSAT was the same or higher than any other class year and our bar passage rate was the same.

[zot1]

I just know that for my class year (2015), my law school's median LSAT was the same or higher than any other class year and our bar passage rate was the same.

It would be kind of neat to compile GPA and LSAT data for the past three graduating classes and compare that with bar passage rates.

I can't do it personally, but just curious.

For the record, the idea that students are getting dumber is so stupid it makes me want to slap something.

[VTLawyer]

I registered just to post my results. I spent a lot of time lurking this forum after the bar exam and I think it was the only thing keeping me sane.

I took the exam in Vermont and passed. I had a 155 essay and 159 MBE.

I used barbri and I cannot remember my exact midterm score but it put me in the 95th percentile. Towards the end I was averaging around 65% on the later practice sets. I did not have a long string of Ds in a row on the AM practice set, but my scantron did seem to have a lot of C and D answers scattered throughout.

I left the MBE feeling sick. I felt like the questions were completely different than any of the practice questions. I was convinced that I had failed. The state hasn't released the overall passage rate yet, but the "rumors" put it between 50-55%. Just a terrible showing all around.

[unlicensedpotato]

ABA reported article

"According to Bloomberg Business, the mean score for the July 2015 multiple choice section was 139.9. July 2014 test takers had a mean score of 141.5 on the multiple choice section, and the section’s mean score for July 2013 was 144.3, the Wall Street Journal Law Blog reported."

Law professors blaming student quality for drop in bar scores:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ekly_email

Of course they are...The problem is that there are so many factors that you really have to look at the big picture (i.e. CivPro making its first July appearance!). No mention of this by Ms. Moeser.

Here's another thing, Erica Moeser (NCBE President) stated: "“It was not unexpected,” Erica Moeser, the organization’s president, told the publication. “We are in a period where we can expect to see some decline, until the market for going to law school improves.” That's a pretty big statement of fact, without much actual substantive support.

It drives me crazy that she makes public statements like this with NO accountability, while they also control every aspect of the test without any oversight. It reeks of bias. And, the fact that she doesn't even hint at the other potential causes (i.e. CivPro) is completely disingenuous. I wonder if the NCBE would ever consider an independent audit of their testing and grading practices...

Anyone aware of any substantive causal relationship between pass rates and this alleged decline in the student body? Like, were the average accepted LSAT scores in 2011 and 2012 abysmally low compared to prior years (which would hint at a problem with the student body)?!

*Update (62 reporting): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Also, congrats Fox!

I really appreciate you doing this thread but you're wrong about the Civ Pro aspect. They isolated each question type and saw similar declines in all categories. Law students are currently dumber than they were in the past, not sure why that would personally bother you. One could argue that students now have to spend time studying CivPro so they don't know the other categories as well, but the decline began before they starting testing CivPro.

That's a totally different issue from whether the NCBE or state bars or whatever are necessary or useful for evaluating potential incoming professionals.

[jaysnooginz]

ABA reported article

"According to Bloomberg Business, the mean score for the July 2015 multiple choice section was 139.9. July 2014 test takers had a mean score of 141.5 on the multiple choice section, and the section’s mean score for July 2013 was 144.3, the Wall Street Journal Law Blog reported."

Law professors blaming student quality for drop in bar scores:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ekly_email

Of course they are...The problem is that there are so many factors that you really have to look at the big picture (i.e. CivPro making its first July appearance!). No mention of this by Ms. Moeser.

Here's another thing, Erica Moeser (NCBE President) stated: "“It was not unexpected,” Erica Moeser, the organization’s president, told the publication. “We are in a period where we can expect to see some decline, until the market for going to law school improves.” That's a pretty big statement of fact, without much actual substantive support.

It drives me crazy that she makes public statements like this with NO accountability, while they also control every aspect of the test without any oversight. It reeks of bias. And, the fact that she doesn't even hint at the other potential causes (i.e. CivPro) is completely disingenuous. I wonder if the NCBE would ever consider an independent audit of their testing and grading practices...

Anyone aware of any substantive causal relationship between pass rates and this alleged decline in the student body? Like, were the average accepted LSAT scores in 2011 and 2012 abysmally low compared to prior years (which would hint at a problem with the student body)?!

*Update (62 reporting): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Also, congrats Fox!

I really appreciate you doing this thread but you're wrong about the Civ Pro aspect. They isolated each question type and saw similar declines in all categories. Law students are currently dumber than they were in the past, not sure why that would personally bother you. One could argue that students now have to spend time studying CivPro so they don't know the other categories as well, but the decline began before they starting testing CivPro.

That's a totally different issue from whether the NCBE or state bars or whatever are necessary or useful for evaluating potential incoming professionals.

You are assuming they haven't progressively made ALL questions harder. I would say that is likely a false assumption based on my experience.

[unlicensedpotato]

You are assuming they haven't progressively made ALL questions harder. I would say that is likely a false assumption based on my experience.

That's certainly possible. However, LSAT/GPAs have been declining steadily, had a significant drop for C/O 2015, and an even larger drop for C/O 2016. It seems likely that next year will be worse.

[jaysnooginz]

I personally believe test difficulty has been increased in response to the proliferation of for-profit schools who will admit any student with a pulse. Schools in the top 100 are not seeing much of a dip in bar passage rates.

[gaagoots]

ABA reported article

"According to Bloomberg Business, the mean score for the July 2015 multiple choice section was 139.9. July 2014 test takers had a mean score of 141.5 on the multiple choice section, and the section’s mean score for July 2013 was 144.3, the Wall Street Journal Law Blog reported."

Law professors blaming student quality for drop in bar scores:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ekly_email

Of course they are...The problem is that there are so many factors that you really have to look at the big picture (i.e. CivPro making its first July appearance!). No mention of this by Ms. Moeser.

Here's another thing, Erica Moeser (NCBE President) stated: "“It was not unexpected,” Erica Moeser, the organization’s president, told the publication. “We are in a period where we can expect to see some decline, until the market for going to law school improves.” That's a pretty big statement of fact, without much actual substantive support.

It drives me crazy that she makes public statements like this with NO accountability, while they also control every aspect of the test without any oversight. It reeks of bias. And, the fact that she doesn't even hint at the other potential causes (i.e. CivPro) is completely disingenuous. I wonder if the NCBE would ever consider an independent audit of their testing and grading practices...

Anyone aware of any substantive causal relationship between pass rates and this alleged decline in the student body? Like, were the average accepted LSAT scores in 2011 and 2012 abysmally low compared to prior years (which would hint at a problem with the student body)?!

*Update (62 reporting): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Also, congrats Fox!

I really appreciate you doing this thread but you're wrong about the Civ Pro aspect. They isolated each question type and saw similar declines in all categories. Law students are currently dumber than they were in the past, not sure why that would personally bother you. One could argue that students now have to spend time studying CivPro so they don't know the other categories as well, but the decline began before they starting testing CivPro.

That's a totally different issue from whether the NCBE or state bars or whatever are necessary or useful for evaluating potential incoming professionals.

Meh! Just dumb as a goldfish, but they tested Canadians http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science ... hones.html

I know over the years (during the decline) more and more of us have smartphones and tablets and Wifi access almost everywhere. I admit checking on Tumblr, Twitter, FB, I messaged and texted and checked emails and this forum while I studied. BarBri, Kaplan, Themis all require online access, unlike the days of yore where there were just books and live lectures.

[robinhoodOO]

you're wrong about the Civ Pro aspect. They isolated each question type and saw similar declines in all categories.

I disagree on the basis that I see this as from settled fact. As you even pointed out, assuming your statement is true (I don't know as I haven't seen all of the NCBE's data/information), this could also be contributed to the fact that students were required to learn an additional subject for the MBE's, which took away from learning other subjects. Or, many other factors that haven't been looked at. Basically, you can't look at things in a vacuum and mere correlation doesn't mean causation. Like I said, you have to look at the bigger picture. There are other factors to be considered.

I'd also point out an issue with the preemptive response regarding the prior decline, which still ignores my point: There are other factors to consider for even the year-over-year decreases. For instance, the decline year-over-year is not necessarily entirely attributable to the alleged decrease in competent students. Part, or even all, of the year-over-year decline could still be attributable to other factors, such as the one you just mentioned.

Basically, even suggesting further declines in pass rates are SOLELY related to the decline in competent students (as the President of the NCBE as inferred) is at best inadequate statistical analysis and at worst disingenuous (I suspect a bit of both).

Law students are currently dumber than they were in the past, not sure why that would personally bother you.

My response to this is the same as my prior post: Put up or shut up (meant in the kindest sense of the expression). Where are the other substantive statistics to suggest that this is the case? Concluding as much by merely looking at Bar passage rates is insufficient unless there are other related correlations to support the overall assertion (i.e. a drop in LSAT scores starting back from 2011 and even 2010, etc.). That, and there has been no isolation of the causal link between the two points. If it's solely attributable to a decline in competence, other stats should suggest as much. So where are they? I'm just looking for the other data to actually concur with this statement/assumption.

If you have them, I'd surely be more open to the suggestion that this is more conclusive than what has been presented thus far. I'm by no means saying the data doesn't exist, I'm just saying I have yet to see it offered by the people making these conclusions.

As for taking this personally, I don't. I do, however, think there should be a full statistical discussion of the various factors and issues before law schools and the NCBE, et al., starting pointing fingers.

Anyway, I welcome your response--particularly if additional data is available--and appreciate the conversation

[robinhoodOO]

You are assuming they haven't progressively made ALL questions harder. I would say that is likely a false assumption based on my experience.

That's certainly possible. However, LSAT/GPAs have been declining steadily, had a significant drop for C/O 2015, and an even larger drop for C/O 2016. It seems likely that next year will be worse.

But are there like drops for 2012 and 2011? Drops for the present years don't correlate to drops in present passing rates. If there are such drops in 2011 and 2012, the NCBE's suggestion regarding the decline in student competence might actually 'hold water'.

And, even if such drops do exist, I want to see what the pass results are for schools where there were no drops in LSAT acceptance (i.e. T14's). Did they have a decline in pass rates despite no such decline in LSAT acceptance from 2011/2012? Again, this would be very telling data one way or the other.

[Veridian40]

Kentucky results leaked for a brief moment yesterday, but they've since been officially posted so Ill go ahead and post here. I PASSED the Kentucky bar (more like survived). As someone above said, we don't get scores if we pass so all I know is that my MBE was over 132. I did Kaplan, and had a 112 midterm and a 139 final.

I ABSOLUTELY had the infamous string of Ds during the morning MBE, so much so in fact that I got paranoid and counted how many times I picked D (it was 37). I definitely think there's something to that with at least one form of the exam.

I found that MBE to be stupidly hard and deliberately misleading, and I feel like they are using it for the express purpose of trying to force lower tier law schools out of business by diminishing their pass-rates, which, frankly, I find disgusting because doing it that way only punishes the students who are already staring down the barrel of soul-crushing debt and limited job prospects. And the MBE is only going to get harder so I'm SO GLAD to have cleared that hurdle.

Congrats to everyone who passed!!!

[unlicensedpotato]

you're wrong about the Civ Pro aspect. They isolated each question type and saw similar declines in all categories.

I disagree on the basis that I see this as from settled fact. As you even pointed out, assuming your statement is true (I don't know as I haven't seen all of the NCBE's data/information), this could also be contributed to the fact that students were required to learn an additional subject for the MBE's, which took away from learning other subjects. Or, many other factors that haven't been looked at. Basically, you can't look at things in a vacuum and mere correlation doesn't mean causation. Like I said, you have to look at the bigger picture. There are other factors to be considered.

I'd also point out an issue with the preemptive response regarding the prior decline, which still ignores my point: There are other factors to consider for even the year-over-year decreases. For instance, the decline year-over-year is not necessarily entirely attributable to the alleged decrease in competent students. Part, or even all, of the year-over-year decline could still be attributable to other factors, such as the one you just mentioned.

Basically, even suggesting further declines in pass rates are SOLELY related to the decline in competent students (as the President of the NCBE as inferred) is at best inadequate statistical analysis and at worst disingenuous (I suspect a bit of both).

Law students are currently dumber than they were in the past, not sure why that would personally bother you.

My response to this is the same as my prior post: Put up or shut up (meant in the kindest sense of the expression). Where are the other substantive statistics to suggest that this is the case? Concluding as much by merely looking at Bar passage rates is insufficient unless there are other related correlations to support the overall assertion (i.e. a drop in LSAT scores starting back from 2011, etc.). That, and there has been no isolation of the causal link between the two points. If it's solely attributable to a decline in competence, other stats should suggest as much. So where are they? I'm just looking for the other data to actually concur with this statement/assumption.

If you have them, I'd surely be more open to the suggestion that this is more conclusive than what has been presented thus far. I'm by no means saying the data doesn't exist, I'm just saying I have yet to see it offered by the people making these conclusions.

Anyway, I welcome your response--particularly if additional data is available--and appreciate the conversation

All fair points. There is an LSAT/GPA drop beginning for C/O 2014 and "peaking" for I believe C/O 2016 but I'm having a hard time finding a good source that displays all the years. So I'll choose shut up. Thanks again for compiling the results.

Just editing to show which applicants I was meaning to refer to.

[robinhoodOO]

All fair points. There is an LSAT/GPA drop beginning in 2011 and "peaking" for I believe 2013 but I'm having a hard time finding a good source that displays all the years. So I'll choose shut up. Thanks again for compiling the results.

I guess I should point out that the LSAT decline would likely be present starting in 2010, considering 2014 graduates would have likely taken the LSAT they were accepted with in 2010 to make early registration deadlines (although this isn't always the case--I used my 2011 February LSAT--haha).

Also, I do want to reiterate that I'm entirely open to the proposition that the decline is at least in part attributable to a decline in the overall student body, but not entirely. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying saying I wish the data was readily available for assisting in making a substantive determination. It'd be really nice to seem some coordinated effort by the NCBE and law schools to investigate this, but I doubt that will happen. Thanks for the conversation, and hopefully you'll be changing your user-name to licensed Potato soon

Also, no problem on compiling this. I'm very pleased with the responses to-date. I'm hoping I can hand this all off to an incoming Taker (if I pass), so that they can continue compiling and improving.

[jaysnooginz]

I've been told by older lawyers that the intelligence of law students is anecdotally higher than in previous decades, but our work ethic is generally worse.

[zot1]

LSAT scores may be down a bit, but this is also something to do with the fact that law students don't have the same incentive to retake the exam one thousand times because there are less applicants so you're more likely to be admitted with a 160 today than you were some years ago.

That aside, I had a shitty LSAT score (but my GPA carried me through), graduated top 1/3 of my class, and passed the bar in first try. But based on my score, I could be one of those dumbing down the MBE

[inconsequential]

Long-time lurker, so I just registered to post. UBE state. 172.9 MBE scaled. Took Barbri and had a 153 on the midterm.