Themis July 2019 Forum

[HairySmokeball]

I can almost buy that argument but the statue says, "sexual intercourse with a person against that person’s will or with a person under the age of 14 years old." I think it's a terribly written statute/question as the second portion doesn't speak to will AT ALL. I can see why 57% of Themis folks picked the same answer I did. Even more annoying is that nit picky shit like this gets under my skin and it takes me 20 minutes to stop cussing and move on. I am so f*ing over the f*ing test.

I think this question is entirely straight forward, and is very similar to the questions on the actual bar at least from what is available on the NCBE's website.

The analysis here is did the defendant:

1) have sex with someone against their will ? or 2) was the person under 14?

If the person was under 14, then like typical statutory rape, consent or will would be entirely irrelevant.

Here, there was no lack of consent, and the person was 14. Therefore, the degree classifications are irrelevant.

Yep. All good points. And hey, 57% of us picked the wrong answer, too.

[RioGrandeLaw]

I keep feeling like I'm getting crushed on the Themis graded essays. When I feel like I did well, I rarely score above a 65, and when I miss any major point I usually get a 55 or 60. That seems substantially below the average scores that are reported, so while I've heard that the essay graders can be a bit harsh (and if mine is personally, that might skew any comparison), I'm concerned that I'm not tracking particularly well...

I ABSOLUTELY believe the Themis graders have been instructed to ruthlessly grade the essays against a "perfect" standard. In other words, to get a high score it's got to track the model answers almost word for word. This, so to get you to study harder. It's just nuts.

I stopped submitting graded essays. My feeling is that any feedback given is outweighed by the negative psychological effects of the score. Like, I can read the fucking model answer and tell when I screwed up . I don't need a grader to do that for me, and then give me the lowest score possible. I need an honest grade- what a bar examiner would most likely give, and why. But they're not going to say "Well, you missed these elements, so you need to work on those. However, your organization was good and you applied the facts well to your rule statement. Even though it was wrong you're still likely to get 2/6." My grader just throws out a few suggestions (mostly obvious) and then gives me an extremely low grade, even if I get the rule statement right and hit like at least half or more of the issues.

Thanks, but I'll give the graded essays a pass.

[HairySmokeball]

Does anyone if there is a goal score on practice exam 4? I know for #3 they suggested 110-120'ish but I am not seeing that for PE4.

[ipsares]

in regards to the rule of purpetuities mbe questions - if you are leaving such convoluted terms in your will the world is better off without you. just give your sh*t to someone and be dead /rant

[Dunnkirk85]

Did a practice set this morning and only 7 of the questions weren't in the orange or red bars. So hard. Thanks Themis!

[cherryfilter]

Ugh I hate how criminal law and torts define "battery" differently..so confusing

[HairySmokeball]

I want to burn Themis TO THE GROUND. At the end of a very long and convoluted explanation, they offer this tidbit:

"Editor's note: A recent Supreme Court case has now expressly incorporated the Excessive Fines Clause of the Eighth Amendment into the Fourteenth Amendment, thus answer choice D is currently an acceptable answer. This change is too recent to be testable on the July 2019 bar exam."

Well then, how about you REMOVE THAT QUESTION!?!?

Have I mentioned that I am so over this BS?

[cherryfilter]

I wonder if just doing all the assigned MEE questions is enough for the bar...worried

[jc9812]

I basically abandoned Themis for the essays a while back (I still did the graded essays, but I saved a bunch of essays for the last two weeks and am currently working through them), but I'm taking CA. Wish I had realized earlier that all I needed was smartbar/to memorize as many rules as I possibly could. Now I'm not feeling great about remembering everything I need to before the exam. Oh well.

[cherryfilter]

I mean..I heard some people say that just repeatedly reading over all the sample answers and highlighting the rules helped them remember enough for the actual MEEs...but not sure if that's true. The sample questions only test some portions of the law that might appear on the actual..SIGH

[HairySmokeball]

I mean..I heard some people say that just repeatedly reading over all the sample answers and highlighting the rules helped them remember enough for the actual MEEs...but not sure if that's true. The sample questions only test some portions of the law that might appear on the actual..SIGH

This is pretty accurate. Full disclosure...I failed the last exam. I failed because of piss poor MBE performance but did pretty well on the essays. I really surprised myself at how easily the APPLICABLE rule flowed onto the paper. I think this is simply because when you see the rules over and over and over and over...they are going to be there when you need them.

I will also add that on many of the essays (due to time constraints) I was only able to put down a portion of a complete rule statement. Of course I made sure to put down the rule that counted, but when reviewing my graded essays, I noticed that I wasn't dinged too bad for not putting a complete rule statement down.

Lastly, I took the "sample answers" for the most highly tested subjects and cut/paste the rule statements into a single doc and printed it. That is how I am studying the state specific stuff..I am ignoring the large outlines (which at this point, you should be too...hopefully you have a general understanding of the law) and just reviewing the rule statements.

Last thing. When I was answering the essays, I did it as though a client had sent me an email telling me what they did and if they had a case. Putting myself in the position of being a "lawyer" and not a student...telling myself that I was giving out the BEST legal advice that I knew...well, I think that helped alot. Just think about when you see something on TV that is legal related that is messed up. You KNOW the law and why it's wrong, so just use that knowledge and put it to paper.

I know this sounds overly simplistic, but for someone who scored TERRIBLY on the MBE (Ok...more truth here...a 117)...I should have done terrible on the essays, but I did pretty well...and so can you.

[cherryfilter]

I mean..I heard some people say that just repeatedly reading over all the sample answers and highlighting the rules helped them remember enough for the actual MEEs...but not sure if that's true. The sample questions only test some portions of the law that might appear on the actual..SIGH

This is pretty accurate. Full disclosure...I failed the last exam. I failed because of piss poor MBE performance but did pretty well on the essays. I really surprised myself at how easily the APPLICABLE rule flowed onto the paper. I think this is simply because when you see the rules over and over and over and over...they are going to be there when you need them.

I will also add that on many of the essays (due to time constraints) I was only able to put down a portion of a complete rule statement. Of course I made sure to put down the rule that counted, but when reviewing my graded essays, I noticed that I wasn't dinged too bad for not putting a complete rule statement down.

Lastly, I took the "sample answers" for the most highly tested subjects and cut/paste the rule statements into a single doc and printed it. That is how I am studying the state specific stuff..I am ignoring the large outlines (which at this point, you should be too...hopefully you have a general understanding of the law) and just reviewing the rule statements.

Last thing. When I was answering the essays, I did it as though a client had sent me an email telling me what they did and if they had a case. Putting myself in the position of being a "lawyer" and not a student...telling myself that I was giving out the BEST legal advice that I knew...well, I think that helped alot. Just think about when you see something on TV that is legal related that is messed up. You KNOW the law and why it's wrong, so just use that knowledge and put it to paper.

I know this sounds overly simplistic, but for someone who scored TERRIBLY on the MBE (Ok...more truth here...a 117)...I should have done terrible on the essays, but I did pretty well...and so can you.

Wow, thanks so much for your input!! Random Q - since you have taken the MBE once already..did you think themis Q's were similar in difficulty? What are you doing differently this time to help improve your MBE performance?

[HairySmokeball]

I mean..I heard some people say that just repeatedly reading over all the sample answers and highlighting the rules helped them remember enough for the actual MEEs...but not sure if that's true. The sample questions only test some portions of the law that might appear on the actual..SIGH

This is pretty accurate. Full disclosure...I failed the last exam. I failed because of piss poor MBE performance but did pretty well on the essays. I really surprised myself at how easily the APPLICABLE rule flowed onto the paper. I think this is simply because when you see the rules over and over and over and over...they are going to be there when you need them.

I will also add that on many of the essays (due to time constraints) I was only able to put down a portion of a complete rule statement. Of course I made sure to put down the rule that counted, but when reviewing my graded essays, I noticed that I wasn't dinged too bad for not putting a complete rule statement down.

Lastly, I took the "sample answers" for the most highly tested subjects and cut/paste the rule statements into a single doc and printed it. That is how I am studying the state specific stuff..I am ignoring the large outlines (which at this point, you should be too...hopefully you have a general understanding of the law) and just reviewing the rule statements.

Last thing. When I was answering the essays, I did it as though a client had sent me an email telling me what they did and if they had a case. Putting myself in the position of being a "lawyer" and not a student...telling myself that I was giving out the BEST legal advice that I knew...well, I think that helped alot. Just think about when you see something on TV that is legal related that is messed up. You KNOW the law and why it's wrong, so just use that knowledge and put it to paper.

I know this sounds overly simplistic, but for someone who scored TERRIBLY on the MBE (Ok...more truth here...a 117)...I should have done terrible on the essays, but I did pretty well...and so can you.

Wow, thanks so much for your input!! Random Q - since you have taken the MBE once already..did you think themis Q's were similar in difficulty? What are you doing differently this time to help improve your MBE performance?

Biggest issue I had last time was death in the family (was the primary care taker of terminally ill father), settling the estate and then moving 1000 miles away. Basically, no time to study. I had about 3 weeks of "good" study time in which I crammed like a mad man. Videos of all the MBE subjects and if I recall, about 500 practice questions (Kaplan). I found the actual MBE questions to be much shorter than the Kaplan questions and I *thought* they were easier...but obviously not. This time, I have done about 2000 questions so far (all MBE videos as well) and think that the fact patterns are more representative of the actual exam. They seem harder, but this is probably a good thing. It's been a while, but when I was involved in courseware development, one of the courses I took was on test administration/psychology of test takers. Long dissertation made much shorter...when you feel like an exam was difficult, you tend to do better than you think. When you think you did well, you usually don't do so well. This is especially true with exams like the MBE that usually will have two "technically" correct answers, but you have to chose the best of the two. I have found that to be true in my practice questions. Except for the obvious easy ones, when I am very confident with an answer, those are the ones I miss the most. When I really have to think hard about which of the two answers to pick, I have been scoring better.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness. I have had little sleep and got up much later today than I intended, so all the brain gears aren't turning yet.

[cherryfilter]

I mean..I heard some people say that just repeatedly reading over all the sample answers and highlighting the rules helped them remember enough for the actual MEEs...but not sure if that's true. The sample questions only test some portions of the law that might appear on the actual..SIGH

This is pretty accurate. Full disclosure...I failed the last exam. I failed because of piss poor MBE performance but did pretty well on the essays. I really surprised myself at how easily the APPLICABLE rule flowed onto the paper. I think this is simply because when you see the rules over and over and over and over...they are going to be there when you need them.

I will also add that on many of the essays (due to time constraints) I was only able to put down a portion of a complete rule statement. Of course I made sure to put down the rule that counted, but when reviewing my graded essays, I noticed that I wasn't dinged too bad for not putting a complete rule statement down.

Lastly, I took the "sample answers" for the most highly tested subjects and cut/paste the rule statements into a single doc and printed it. That is how I am studying the state specific stuff..I am ignoring the large outlines (which at this point, you should be too...hopefully you have a general understanding of the law) and just reviewing the rule statements.

Last thing. When I was answering the essays, I did it as though a client had sent me an email telling me what they did and if they had a case. Putting myself in the position of being a "lawyer" and not a student...telling myself that I was giving out the BEST legal advice that I knew...well, I think that helped alot. Just think about when you see something on TV that is legal related that is messed up. You KNOW the law and why it's wrong, so just use that knowledge and put it to paper.

I know this sounds overly simplistic, but for someone who scored TERRIBLY on the MBE (Ok...more truth here...a 117)...I should have done terrible on the essays, but I did pretty well...and so can you.

Wow, thanks so much for your input!! Random Q - since you have taken the MBE once already..did you think themis Q's were similar in difficulty? What are you doing differently this time to help improve your MBE performance?

Biggest issue I had last time was death in the family (was the primary care taker of terminally ill father), settling the estate and then moving 1000 miles away. Basically, no time to study. I had about 3 weeks of "good" study time in which I crammed like a mad man. Videos of all the MBE subjects and if I recall, about 500 practice questions (Kaplan). I found the actual MBE questions to be much shorter than the Kaplan questions and I *thought* they were easier...but obviously not. This time, I have done about 2000 questions so far (all MBE videos as well) and think that the fact patterns are more representative of the actual exam. They seem harder, but this is probably a good thing. It's been a while, but when I was involved in courseware development, one of the courses I took was on test administration/psychology of test takers. Long dissertation made much shorter...when you feel like an exam was difficult, you tend to do better than you think. When you think you did well, you usually don't do so well. This is especially true with exams like the MBE that usually will have two "technically" correct answers, but you have to chose the best of the two. I have found that to be true in my practice questions. Except for the obvious easy ones, when I am very confident with an answer, those are the ones I miss the most. When I really have to think hard about which of the two answers to pick, I have been scoring better.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness. I have had little sleep and got up much later today than I intended, so all the brain gears aren't turning yet.

Oh wow, sorry to hear that..
I'm sure you'll do better this time - thank you so much for this info! and good luck

[cherryfilter]

Did anyone take the PMBR and know what the average is?? or goal score?

[TheLorax]

Has anyone noticed that the MBE PQ sets seem to be getting harder as they progress through? Sets 1-10 I was well into the 70% range, but after set 10 ive been in the 60s.

[cavalier1138]

Has anyone noticed that the MBE PQ sets seem to be getting harder as they progress through? Sets 1-10 I was well into the 70% range, but after set 10 ive been in the 60s.

It was mentioned earlier, but once you get into the mixed-bag PQ sets, they start focusing on your weak spots. And I've noticed that if you're generally performing well in particular areas, they'll just give you 8 extremely hard questions to watch you suffer.

As a specific example: I generally perform extremely well in civ pro, missing maybe one or two questions per set if I miss any. Today, I only got two questions right. Does that mean I'm suddenly bad at civ pro? No. It means that the program decided to throw 8 red-level-hard questions at me, testing the world's nitpickiest rules that would never all be tested on the same MBE.

The continued practice is designed to hone in on areas that you need work on. Trust that you're still learning those weird rules as you get questions wrong now, because the only time it's going to matter is exam day.

[kasap]

Has anyone noticed that the MBE PQ sets seem to be getting harder as they progress through? Sets 1-10 I was well into the 70% range, but after set 10 ive been in the 60s.

It was mentioned earlier, but once you get into the mixed-bag PQ sets, they start focusing on your weak spots. And I've noticed that if you're generally performing well in particular areas, they'll just give you 8 extremely hard questions to watch you suffer.

As a specific example: I generally perform extremely well in civ pro, missing maybe one or two questions per set if I miss any. Today, I only got two questions right. Does that mean I'm suddenly bad at civ pro? No. It means that the program decided to throw 8 red-level-hard questions at me, testing the world's nitpickiest rules that would never all be tested on the same MBE.

The continued practice is designed to hone in on areas that you need work on. Trust that you're still learning those weird rules as you get questions wrong now, because the only time it's going to matter is exam day.

Which set was that? I got only one correct on Civ. Pro today as well.

[cavalier1138]

Has anyone noticed that the MBE PQ sets seem to be getting harder as they progress through? Sets 1-10 I was well into the 70% range, but after set 10 ive been in the 60s.

It was mentioned earlier, but once you get into the mixed-bag PQ sets, they start focusing on your weak spots. And I've noticed that if you're generally performing well in particular areas, they'll just give you 8 extremely hard questions to watch you suffer.

As a specific example: I generally perform extremely well in civ pro, missing maybe one or two questions per set if I miss any. Today, I only got two questions right. Does that mean I'm suddenly bad at civ pro? No. It means that the program decided to throw 8 red-level-hard questions at me, testing the world's nitpickiest rules that would never all be tested on the same MBE.

The continued practice is designed to hone in on areas that you need work on. Trust that you're still learning those weird rules as you get questions wrong now, because the only time it's going to matter is exam day.

Which set was that? I got only one correct on Civ. Pro today as well.

It was set 15 for me, but based on other comments here, it's highly unlikely that we had the same questions.

[TheLorax]

It's frustrating how the program works. Not great to get a huge blow to your self-esteem immediately before the exam. I guess I would have assumed they would balance the program so that you would refocus on areas you need work on, not convince you you're failing.

[kenken637]

It's frustrating how the program works. Not great to get a huge blow to your self-esteem immediately before the exam. I guess I would have assumed they would balance the program so that you would refocus on areas you need work on, not convince you you're failing.

I second this. Not convinced that having us feel defeated is the best approach a week away from the exam. We should feel more confident at this stage than at the beginning of the program and not have to second guess our preparation. I understand the program is built to focus on your weaknesses or for you to "learn" as you progress... but it can be exceedingly overwhelming and frustrating. During my previous attempt, I was too caught up focused on daily progress and assignment completion. So even if Themis wanted me to "try harder," I just couldn't find more time in my already 12 hour study days to improve.

I guess my best advice a week from the exam is to review and practice and don't be afraid to ditch daily assignments. Focus on your weak areas through the quiz builder and get a good grasp on the MEE practice questions available, and lastly make sure you practice enough MPT's... easy points! I ditched daily assignments two weeks ago (I'll let everyone know if it worked out once results are out )

[aw2768]

Can someone explain to me how this is robbery and not plain larceny?

A man broke into and entered a home at night with the intent of bludgeoning the homeowner to death with a baseball bat. Upon seeing the man raise the baseball bat to strike him, the homeowner pleaded for his life. The man decided not to strike or kill the homeowner and instead took personal property worth several thousand dollars from the home.

Of the following, which are the most serious crimes for which the man can be convicted?

I understand the burglary aspect of the question, but I'm just not grabbing the robbery aspect. From my reading of the question, he did not obtain the property through force or threat of force.

[KissMyAxe]

Can someone explain to me how this is robbery and not plain larceny?

A man broke into and entered a home at night with the intent of bludgeoning the homeowner to death with a baseball bat. Upon seeing the man raise the baseball bat to strike him, the homeowner pleaded for his life. The man decided not to strike or kill the homeowner and instead took personal property worth several thousand dollars from the home.

Of the following, which are the most serious crimes for which the man can be convicted?

I understand the burglary aspect of the question, but I'm just not grabbing the robbery aspect. From my reading of the question, he did not obtain the property through force or threat of force.

He raised a baseball bat to hit the homeowner who saw him do it and then pleaded for his life. That's definitely the threat of force. A threat of force doesn't have to be verbal. If you point a gun at someone and demand their wallet, that's robbery, even if you don't explicitly say you'll shoot them. This is no different than that.

[aw2768]

Can someone explain to me how this is robbery and not plain larceny?

A man broke into and entered a home at night with the intent of bludgeoning the homeowner to death with a baseball bat. Upon seeing the man raise the baseball bat to strike him, the homeowner pleaded for his life. The man decided not to strike or kill the homeowner and instead took personal property worth several thousand dollars from the home.

Of the following, which are the most serious crimes for which the man can be convicted?

I understand the burglary aspect of the question, but I'm just not grabbing the robbery aspect. From my reading of the question, he did not obtain the property through force or threat of force.

He raised a baseball bat to hit the homeowner who saw him do it and then pleaded for his life. That's definitely the threat of force. A threat of force doesn't have to be verbal. If you point a gun at someone and demand their wallet, that's robbery, even if you don't explicitly say you'll shoot them. This is no different than that.

Yes, but the threat was not intended to be used to take the property when it was uttered, the intent at that time was to kill the man. I am reading this as though the defendant took the property after this all occurred.

I sure it is a straight forward question, but I am going on no sleep, so that's why I think I don't understand it.

[ipsares]

I had a quick property question:

Landowner leaves will that says, "to A for life, remainder to his children in fee simple" - Landowner dies, A and his 2 children are alive. What do the children have?

1- Vested subject to complete divestment
2- Vested subject to partial divestment.


So i had answered a similar question with answer 2 before on either themis/adaptibar and i got it wrong because they said, naw they are actually going to determine the children in existence from the life of the testator, or when the testator dies rather than when A dies. Ok kind of make sense whatever. In FINZ the answer was 2 because A could have more children. Which is what I originally had thought. Any definite ideas on this one?