Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam Forum

[Tanicius]

The handouts are basically the middle ground between the massive outlines and the summary outlines. Summary outline is useful for memorization purposes (stuff that you should have for perfect recall for the essays), and the handouts, imho, are vital for the MBE.

The "outlines" (massive outlines) have way too much extraneous info., whereas the handouts are 90% filled with basic/essential material for MBE success. Either that, or if you insist on pushing on with just drilling the summary outlines, going through 100's of MBE questions per subject and their corresponding answer explanations should already teach you those rules listed in the handouts intuitively too. Whatever works for you

This is a critical distinction I've started to pick up. The minutae is tested on the MBE, but typically is not tested on the MEE. In fact I've been finding it rather detrimental to even raise minutae for even a sentence in the essay answers. You have so little space that you can often only glance most issues, and so little time that, based on the model answers, the bar examiners clearly are not expecting well articulated reasoning. They just want very simple high school prose.

[dudnaito]

4) Print out summary outline for every MBE and MEE subject (you might not have gotten a link yet, i just asked them for mine earlier cause i'm a bosssss). They should have either emailed it to you, or check under "my communications." Each jurisdiction seems to have a different timeline for when Themis decides to send these to you.


Where do we find the shorter outlines? I can't find them in Themis anywhere...

So depending on your state you might not have them yet. But do at least check under "my communications", the links to the summary outline may be in an email if your state is one that already received them (CA did).

Lol, i can tell everyone's Reading Comprehension needs some work post-LSAT.

[dudnaito]

The handouts are basically the middle ground between the massive outlines and the summary outlines. Summary outline is useful for memorization purposes (stuff that you should have for perfect recall for the essays), and the handouts, imho, are vital for the MBE.

The "outlines" (massive outlines) have way too much extraneous info., whereas the handouts are 90% filled with basic/essential material for MBE success. Either that, or if you insist on pushing on with just drilling the summary outlines, going through 100's of MBE questions per subject and their corresponding answer explanations should already teach you those rules listed in the handouts intuitively too. Whatever works for you

This is a critical distinction I've started to pick up. The minutae is tested on the MBE, but typically is not tested on the MEE. In fact I've been finding it rather detrimental to even raise minutae for even a sentence in the essay answers. You have so little space that you can often only glance most issues, and so little time that, based on the model answers, the bar examiners clearly are not expecting well articulated reasoning. They just want very simple high school prose.

Yeah, I'm in complete agreement with you. Ever try typing out even the basic def. and elements of a battery claim? Try it... with a timer, seriously, go on. I type fairly quickly, and even after virtually perfect recall, it still takes a solid 20 seconds to type out just the rules. 30 minutes/essay, you won't have any time to type out the minutiae anyway. If you try, you'll lose out on more points from core issues that went unmentioned anyway.


Many if not most of us here are TLS OG. But it'll be to our detriment if we maintain the same stance of perfectionism (170 or bust). We don't need experts here, we need wiki-scholars... not even smart wiki-scholars, we need to emulate some half-assed wiki articles, cause there ain't no more time than that.

[dudnaito]

What are everyone's thoughts about Themis' MBE questions? Most of my friends (themis and non-themis exam takers past and present) are telling me to buy the Kaplan red book for the MBE portion stating that Themis' MBE questions are not that great/caused them to fail/etc. Comments?

With all due respect, no one caused them to fail. Having said that, Kaplan Q's are considered by many to be the best approximation of the MBE. I also supplement my Themis Prep with Kaplan MBE Q's and AdaptiBar. I'm taking Illinois, so even a decent score on the MBE should allow me to pass even in lieu of a terrible MEE and MPT.. .not that I'm not studying for the latter 2. I think that's a combined 2,200-2,500 MBE questions accounting for some overlap in questions. That should be enough. Highly doubt the real test can throw a curveball I haven't seen by that point and even if they do, who cares, i just want to pass, not ace the exam.

Why is that? If Themis and Kaplan are both using actual MBE questions, wouldn't they be the same? Or are you referring to the explanations?

ETA: I'm curious about something else you said. You mention that a decent score on the MBE will allow you to pass even with a not-so-good MEE and MPT. Is the MBE a particularly significant portion of the IL bar?

Not all of them are official questions. Don't quote me on this but i believe the ENTIRE universe of official MBE questions are around 1,200? The others are made by Themis, Barbri, Kaplan, etc... in their attempts to emulate actual MBE questions, or in the case of Themis and especially Barbri, their MBE questions are intentionally made far more difficult than the actual MBE questions just to scare you into studying more. Some bar-exam guru's actually insist you don't even touch Barbri Level 5 MBE questions, because it'll just destroy your confidence without anything gained.



And damn, i'm hanging out here far too much. Peace out homies, happy studying.

[dudnaito]

ETA: I'm curious about something else you said. You mention that a decent score on the MBE will allow you to pass even with a not-so-good MEE and MPT. Is the MBE a particularly significant portion of the IL bar?




Mr. Desert Fox's post is quite illuminating on that topic.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=210339

Basically, doing pretty well on the MBE, for example, scoring in the top 60th-70th percentile on the MBE, gives you a scaled score where you can technically be in the bottom 1-3% of the entire essay section (MEE, MPT, Ill. Essays) constituting 50% of the total score, and still net you the necessary passing score.

Desert Fox suggests that TLS'ers who usually aim for the top 1-2% of the LSAT should be able to be in the top 30-40% of just a 6-subject multiple choice test with ease, thus ensuring that your performance in the other sections which require you to study 10+ more subjects than the 6 MBE subjects will become something of a moot point.

It's Illinois. The Illinois bar will be increasing their score twice. Once Feb. 2015 i believe and they'll raise it again a year later or something, cause well.... it's apparently too easy.

[jigglypuffdreams]

Haha I'm in Michigan so I think Desert Fox's "strong MBE=auto pass" doesn't apply quite as much, thanks to their crazy changing of the grading so that people can't multistate out as easily. But even if I was focusing on MBE alone, my SO used Themis last year and did really good on the MBE and more average on the essay portion. He didn't use adaptibar or anything else besides Themis really. And other people I know who did Themis did better on MBE than on essays. If I really thought Themis was shitty on MBE I probably would have stayed away from it altogether. Their MBE lectures and outlines are really comprehensive and well-made, their state specific stuff... why is a California professor teaching me about Michigan domestic relations? Obviously it won't kill me and I'm still learning the material, but I think the MBE stuff is markedly better because they sell it to every state.

[SilverE2]

ETA: I'm curious about something else you said. You mention that a decent score on the MBE will allow you to pass even with a not-so-good MEE and MPT. Is the MBE a particularly significant portion of the IL bar?




Mr. Desert Fox's post is quite illuminating on that topic.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=210339

Basically, doing pretty well on the MBE, for example, scoring in the top 60th-70th percentile on the MBE, gives you a scaled score where you can technically be in the bottom 1-3% of the entire essay section (MEE, MPT, Ill. Essays) constituting 50% of the total score, and still net you the necessary passing score.

Desert Fox suggests that TLS'ers who usually aim for the top 1-2% of the LSAT should be able to be in the top 30-40% of just a 6-subject multiple choice test with ease, thus ensuring that your performance in the other sections which require you to study 10+ more subjects than the 6 MBE subjects will become something of a moot point.

It's Illinois. The Illinois bar will be increasing their score twice. Once Feb. 2015 i believe and they'll raise it again a year later or something, cause well.... it's apparently too easy.

Does anyone know if this applies to Florida? I would love to get a break on Florida essays. I'm generally pretty good at multiple choice but closed-book essays are the bane of my existence.

[Genuine4ps]

ETA: I'm curious about something else you said. You mention that a decent score on the MBE will allow you to pass even with a not-so-good MEE and MPT. Is the MBE a particularly significant portion of the IL bar?




Mr. Desert Fox's post is quite illuminating on that topic.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=210339

Basically, doing pretty well on the MBE, for example, scoring in the top 60th-70th percentile on the MBE, gives you a scaled score where you can technically be in the bottom 1-3% of the entire essay section (MEE, MPT, Ill. Essays) constituting 50% of the total score, and still net you the necessary passing score.

Desert Fox suggests that TLS'ers who usually aim for the top 1-2% of the LSAT should be able to be in the top 30-40% of just a 6-subject multiple choice test with ease, thus ensuring that your performance in the other sections which require you to study 10+ more subjects than the 6 MBE subjects will become something of a moot point.

It's Illinois. The Illinois bar will be increasing their score twice. Once Feb. 2015 i believe and they'll raise it again a year later or something, cause well.... it's apparently too easy.

Does anyone know if this applies to Florida? I would love to get a break on Florida essays. I'm generally pretty good at multiple choice but closed-book essays are the bane of my existence.

I think if your the MBE accounts for 50% of your state's exam, you should be in the same position as IL. I'm not sure, so maybe someone can confirm this?

[SilverE2]

ETA: I'm curious about something else you said. You mention that a decent score on the MBE will allow you to pass even with a not-so-good MEE and MPT. Is the MBE a particularly significant portion of the IL bar?




Mr. Desert Fox's post is quite illuminating on that topic.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=210339

Basically, doing pretty well on the MBE, for example, scoring in the top 60th-70th percentile on the MBE, gives you a scaled score where you can technically be in the bottom 1-3% of the entire essay section (MEE, MPT, Ill. Essays) constituting 50% of the total score, and still net you the necessary passing score.

Desert Fox suggests that TLS'ers who usually aim for the top 1-2% of the LSAT should be able to be in the top 30-40% of just a 6-subject multiple choice test with ease, thus ensuring that your performance in the other sections which require you to study 10+ more subjects than the 6 MBE subjects will become something of a moot point.

It's Illinois. The Illinois bar will be increasing their score twice. Once Feb. 2015 i believe and they'll raise it again a year later or something, cause well.... it's apparently too easy.

Does anyone know if this applies to Florida? I would love to get a break on Florida essays. I'm generally pretty good at multiple choice but closed-book essays are the bane of my existence.

I think if your the MBE accounts for 50% of your state's exam, you should be in the same position as IL. I'm not sure, so maybe someone can confirm this?

That's what Desert Fox says in his post, but I was unable to find the percentiles for the Florida portion of the bar exam to confirm (like he did with Illinois). So I'm pretty sure, to use his example, if you get a 152 on the MBE, you only need a 120 on the Florida portion. But I don't know what a 120 is, percentile wise, so I don't know how easy it is to achieve a 120 on the Florida portion of the bar.

[northwood]

where does one get ahold of the Kaplan MBE question bank?

[dudnaito]

ETA: I'm curious about something else you said. You mention that a decent score on the MBE will allow you to pass even with a not-so-good MEE and MPT. Is the MBE a particularly significant portion of the IL bar?




Mr. Desert Fox's post is quite illuminating on that topic.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=210339

Basically, doing pretty well on the MBE, for example, scoring in the top 60th-70th percentile on the MBE, gives you a scaled score where you can technically be in the bottom 1-3% of the entire essay section (MEE, MPT, Ill. Essays) constituting 50% of the total score, and still net you the necessary passing score.

Desert Fox suggests that TLS'ers who usually aim for the top 1-2% of the LSAT should be able to be in the top 30-40% of just a 6-subject multiple choice test with ease, thus ensuring that your performance in the other sections which require you to study 10+ more subjects than the 6 MBE subjects will become something of a moot point.

It's Illinois. The Illinois bar will be increasing their score twice. Once Feb. 2015 i believe and they'll raise it again a year later or something, cause well.... it's apparently too easy.

Does anyone know if this applies to Florida? I would love to get a break on Florida essays. I'm generally pretty good at multiple choice but closed-book essays are the bane of my existence.

I think if your the MBE accounts for 50% of your state's exam, you should be in the same position as IL. I'm not sure, so maybe someone can confirm this?

Yes, the logic is still sound assuming FL applicants aren't statistically more exam-proficient as a whole than Ill. applicants are. Obviously though, the post was meant to show you how "not-hard" it is to pass the Bar exam for those of us with exams with a COMPOSITE minimum passing score. Obviously, you should do "ok," on the essay sections as well.

And y'all really need to do some research for your jurisdiction, find out what the minimum passing score is, how the exam will be graded, etc... as vast differences exist between/among diff. jurisdictions. If you don't know, just call them and see if you can find out.

[kapital98]

And y'all really need to do some research for your jurisdiction, find out what the minimum passing score is, how the exam will be graded, etc... as vast differences exist between/among diff. jurisdictions. If you don't know, just call them and see if you can find out.

All of the section percentages and passing scores were explained in my introduction videos. I'm in NY. I don't know why they wouldn't do this for other jrx's.

[Apple Tree]

When you guys do the MBE practice questions, do you refer back to your notes if you can't remember the law or do you still try to guess an answer?

[MinEMorris]

I personally just try to answer without referring to my notes so that I can track test-like-condition progress. I think I'm going to start writing down one sentence principle summaries for questions that I get wrong.

[puttycake]

I don't check notes for MBE. I do for essays.

I've done two graded essays and I completely suck at them. Whee.

[Tanicius]

I don't check notes for MBE. I do for essays.

I've done two graded essays and I completely suck at them. Whee.

I couldn't even remember the fucking elements for battery for a Torts essay. I was horrifyingly pathetic.

[Kiwi917]

I don't check notes for MBE. I do for essays.

I've done two graded essays and I completely suck at them. Whee.

Same here. Issue spotting was never much of a problem for me in law school (memorizing rule statements, on the other hand...) and yet I've missed major issues on both of the graded essays so far. I know they say to memorize an issues checklist and run through that, but I always seem to forget something important.

I'm making a flash card for the general principle from each MBE question that I get wrong, and organizing them roughly according to the Themis topics. Then I scan through those a few times before I do any more MBE sets. It seems to be working well so far.

[Tanicius]

WTF Kramer, NINE video lecturers for the last 13 pages of the Property outline? Your handout for these nine chapters is twice as long as the long outline for this topic in the book!

Edit: The several hours he spends on mortgages and trusts/wills/estates aren't even in the short outline.

[Apple Tree]

WTF Kramer, NINE video lecturers for the last 13 pages of the Property outline? Your handout for these nine chapters is twice as long as the long outline for this topic in the book!

Edit: The several hours he spends on mortgages and trusts/wills/estates aren't even in the short outline.

Lol at least he's funny. The torts videos are putting me right to sleep, and they are all on the long side too.

[puttycake]

It feels like every other Real Property MBE question is about mortgages.

[Tanicius]

It feels like every other Real Property MBE question is about mortgages.

Goddamn it. At least that will prepare me for the two whole questions about it that will be on the real thing.

[Evaly]

It feels like every other Real Property MBE question is about mortgages.

Themis seems to contradict itself. In the Real Property MBE workshop the guy said to concentrate on mortgages because it is likely to be tested with 6-7 questions. But then the summary outline has only a few words on mortgages.

[puttycake]

Many of the mortgage questions involve recording acts. I find most of RP pretty understandable, if fiddly and arcane, but I'll admit, I don't understand any of the questions involving creditors and recording acts.

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

Anyone not making flashcards or their own condensed outline?

I made flashcards for CA community property and then did condensed outline for con law. But I felt it was a waste of time since it didn't help with memorization. So for torts and K I am just taking the Themis handout and adding to it whenever I see that I missed something on a MBE or essay question. Just wondering if I am making a mistake in the long-run.



All I want is a clear list of compact but accurate rule phrasings that I can memorize for the essays..

Meeee too! Would love a clear list of compact but accurate rule phrasings! Just got a big book called "Bar Code Cheat Sheets" which I'm hoping will help me with the essays... They're definitely my weakness. And for the MBEs I'm also using Adaptibar, which adjusts to what you miss... if you don't do well on a topic, it starts giving you more of those questions, and they're all real NCBE questions. As for flash cards, I'm not making them. I have my old "law in a flash" cards that I might dig out if I need them... but so far, I haven't been inspired to make any of my own. I've gotta admit though, it's hard enough keeping up with Themis... adding supplemental materials makes it that much harder. Slowing sinking here... ugh. Should change my online name to Ms. Miserable

[Tanicius]

This is just so weird. Kramer's spending literally hours on subjects that are barely even touched on in the long outline and not even mentioned in the short outline. I feel like Themis really dropped the ball by not writing better Property materials.