BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam Forum

[charlesxavier]

After doing a bunch of the essays, I've started doing a modified CIRAC, which includes a full facts paragraph (CIRFAC).

I like it because, based on my self grading, I typically end up with more points because it's more likely that I have included whatever facts they deem appropriate.

It ends up looking like this:

1) Conclusion, Issue
2) Rule
3) Facts ("Here, ... [basically retelling all parts of the story that I think could conceivably be relevant]")
4) Application ("Applying the rule to these facts, ....")
5) Conclusion (one sentence, "Thus ...")

I know it is important to the graders that you follow CIRAC or something similar. Does anyone see a downside to modifying CIRAC like this?

Wouldnt this result in typing out the same sentences twice? You would type out once in your fact section, and then type out the same exact facts in your application section. I always thought you do stuff like "As articulated in the rule, here we have malice aforethought because the defendant pointed a loaded gun at the man's head and pulled the trigger. At the bare minimum, pointing a loaded gun at an individual's head presents an extreme indifference to the value of human life."

Just restating facts in an almost "statement of the facts section" seems to be a waste, but I would be curious to see what others think.

It results in some repetition sometimes. I would say maybe 30% of the time I end up repeating. But when I do repeat, it's usually only like 2-3 sentences of the same stuff that is relevant to both questions. Where there is enough repetition to make it worthwhile, I copy and paste.

But yeah, your question is exactly why I wonder whether it's a good idea to do this. Theoretically, you don't get knocked for writing the wrong stuff, so if you include a full paragraph of facts, and only half of it is relevant, who cares. But on the other hand, I don't want to make it hard for the grader to find the stuff that gets me points.

My thought thus far has been that it isn't THAT hard to sort through an extra 4-6 sentences of facts (even where potentially repetitive), and that the benefit probably outweighs any detriment. But curious to hear other thoughts.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't do it unless I felt it was absolutely necessary. There's a timing issue for you and a clarity issue for the grader. Graders spend a few minutes reading each essay so you want to be as clear and efficient as possible.

[atticus89]

After doing a bunch of the essays, I've started doing a modified CIRAC, which includes a full facts paragraph (CIRFAC).

I like it because, based on my self grading, I typically end up with more points because it's more likely that I have included whatever facts they deem appropriate.

It ends up looking like this:

1) Conclusion, Issue
2) Rule
3) Facts ("Here, ... [basically retelling all parts of the story that I think could conceivably be relevant]")
4) Application ("Applying the rule to these facts, ....")
5) Conclusion (one sentence, "Thus ...")

I know it is important to the graders that you follow CIRAC or something similar. Does anyone see a downside to modifying CIRAC like this?

Wouldnt this result in typing out the same sentences twice? You would type out once in your fact section, and then type out the same exact facts in your application section. I always thought you do stuff like "As articulated in the rule, here we have malice aforethought because the defendant pointed a loaded gun at the man's head and pulled the trigger. At the bare minimum, pointing a loaded gun at an individual's head presents an extreme indifference to the value of human life."

Just restating facts in an almost "statement of the facts section" seems to be a waste, but I would be curious to see what others think.

It results in some repetition sometimes. I would say maybe 30% of the time I end up repeating. But when I do repeat, it's usually only like 2-3 sentences of the same stuff that is relevant to both questions. Where there is enough repetition to make it worthwhile, I copy and paste.

But yeah, your question is exactly why I wonder whether it's a good idea to do this. Theoretically, you don't get knocked for writing the wrong stuff, so if you include a full paragraph of facts, and only half of it is relevant, who cares. But on the other hand, I don't want to make it hard for the grader to find the stuff that gets me points.

My thought thus far has been that it isn't THAT hard to sort through an extra 4-6 sentences of facts (even where potentially repetitive), and that the benefit probably outweighs any detriment. But curious to hear other thoughts.

I see why you're doing it this way. Basically you're using the 'facts' section to brainstorm on the page for analysis. When you list every fact, even seemingly non-relevant facts, it forces you to try to think of any loose connection to the law.

Like you said, you're not going to lose points for this but you just have to make sure that you're actually applying the facts. The danger with doing it this way is in the heat of the moment to just write facts down and fill in the blanks (analysis) in your head, while losing analysis points on the page. I personally wouldn't do it this way but if it helps you, it's probably not a good idea to change course now. I'd say the only risk you run here is if you have an annoyed grader who caught on to what you're doing and subconsciously is docking points since you keep repeating facts even where they don't apply. The other issue is timing.

[xfer2013]

I see why you're doing it this way. Basically you're using the 'facts' section to brainstorm on the page for analysis. When you list every fact, even seemingly non-relevant facts, it forces you to try to think of any loose connection to the law.

Like you said, you're not going to lose points for this but you just have to make sure that you're actually applying the facts. The danger with doing it this way is in the heat of the moment to just write facts down and fill in the blanks (analysis) in your head, while losing analysis points on the page. I personally wouldn't do it this way but if it helps you, it's probably not a good idea to change course now. I'd say the only risk you run here is if you have an annoyed grader who caught on to what you're doing and subconsciously is docking points since you keep repeating facts even where they don't apply. The other issue is timing.

Yeah, the brainstorm thing is absolutely true. There are times when I'm blanking on the law and I start w/ facts, and then the law/analysis comes around in my head.

[kyle010723]

Grrr, I hate it when you KNEW the answer in your head but picked the wrong one on paper...

[rickgrimes69]

When a contract gives a buyer the right to purchase "all" of the product produced by a seller, and the seller later decides to stop producing that product, how is that a breach of contract? This is in regards to Mixed Set 5, Q #35.

[kyle010723]

When a contract gives a buyer the right to purchase "all" of the product produced by a seller, and the seller later decides to stop producing that product, how is that a breach of contract? This is in regards to Mixed Set 5, Q #35.

Because to terminate an output contract, the seller must have a good faith cessation of production. I haven't done that question, but my guess is the seller did not decide to stop producing the product in good faith.

[musicfor18]

When a contract gives a buyer the right to purchase "all" of the product produced by a seller, and the seller later decides to stop producing that product, how is that a breach of contract? This is in regards to Mixed Set 5, Q #35.

Because to terminate an output contract, the seller must have a good faith cessation of production. I haven't done that question, but my guess is the seller did not decide to stop producing the product in good faith.

I also haven't done this question, but I think this explanation is correct. Courts imply this good faith requirement to avoid having the contract be illusory. If there were no requirement of good faith, there would be no consideration because the seller would have complete control over whether or not to perform on his promise.

[rickgrimes69]

When a contract gives a buyer the right to purchase "all" of the product produced by a seller, and the seller later decides to stop producing that product, how is that a breach of contract? This is in regards to Mixed Set 5, Q #35.

Because to terminate an output contract, the seller must have a good faith cessation of production. I haven't done that question, but my guess is the seller did not decide to stop producing the product in good faith.

In this question,

[+] Spoiler

the output contract was entered into in anticipation of pending regulations that could make growing corn less profitable. A year later, the regulations are passed, and the farmer decides to stop producing corn because the regulations made it unprofitable. I guess I didn't interpret that as bad faith since corn is a widely available product and both parties were aware of this possibility when they made the contract.

[kyle010723]

When a contract gives a buyer the right to purchase "all" of the product produced by a seller, and the seller later decides to stop producing that product, how is that a breach of contract? This is in regards to Mixed Set 5, Q #35.

Because to terminate an output contract, the seller must have a good faith cessation of production. I haven't done that question, but my guess is the seller did not decide to stop producing the product in good faith.

In this question,

[+] Spoiler

the output contract was entered into in anticipation of pending regulations that could make growing corn less profitable. A year later, the regulations are passed, and the farmer decides to stop producing corn because the regulations made it unprofitable. I guess I didn't interpret that as bad faith since corn is a widely available product and both parties were aware of this possibility when they made the contract.

Yea, you cannot simply stop producing something because it is not profitable, as that is part of the risk of entering into a supply/output contract. That is precisely because parties were aware of the risk when they entered into such contract and therefore assumed the risk, which is the whole point of having a supply/output contract.

Now if the farmer got hurt and cannot grow altogether, then he would be allowed to terminate. But a mere fluctuation in profit is not enough to terminate an output, or a supply contract for that matter.

[Tiago Splitter]

I think commodities like corn are the ultimate example of why you need a really good reason to stop. People buy corn in advance all the time with both sides taking some risk. Buyer is better off if the price goes up, seller better off if the price goes down. So it's not fair for the seller to just shut it down when things go bad.

Now if the seller would legitimately go out of business if he was forced to stick with the deal he can probably get excused for impracticability.

[rinkrat19]

I don't want to study today; I just wanna play with my new phone. But I am definitely not in a place where I can slack off at all, unlike some of you geniuses with your 85 percents.

[jamescastle]

I don't want to study today; I just wanna play with my new phone. But I am definitely not in a place where I can slack off at all, unlike some of you geniuses with your 85 percents.

I consistently am hitting low 60% on MBE questions and did pretty poorly on the simulated MBE. I'm finding it really hard to keep going though despite knowing that slacking off here could easily result in my failing. Just really really exhausted of it all at this point. I don't know this stuff well enough and this last week is going to kill me.

[rinkrat19]

I don't want to study today; I just wanna play with my new phone. But I am definitely not in a place where I can slack off at all, unlike some of you geniuses with your 85 percents.

I consistently am hitting low 60% on MBE questions and did pretty poorly on the simulated MBE. I'm finding it really hard to keep going though despite knowing that slacking off here could easily result in my failing. Just really really exhausted of it all at this point. I don't know this stuff well enough and this last week is going to kill me.

right there with ya, man.

It's really hard to avoid thinking "I'm not going to improve enough in a week, so why bother?"

[RaleighStClair]

I don't want to study today; I just wanna play with my new phone. But I am definitely not in a place where I can slack off at all, unlike some of you geniuses with your 85 percents.

I consistently am hitting low 60% on MBE questions and did pretty poorly on the simulated MBE. I'm finding it really hard to keep going though despite knowing that slacking off here could easily result in my failing. Just really really exhausted of it all at this point. I don't know this stuff well enough and this last week is going to kill me.

right there with ya, man.

It's really hard to avoid thinking "I'm not going to improve enough in a week, so why bother?"

I'm the ultimate Debbie Downer when it comes to anything law school/exam related, so I know what you guys are saying, but even if you have to completely fake enthusiasm for this shit for one more week, just do it. Take it one thing that's troubling you at a time. You got this. Minimum competency.

[xfer2013]

I don't want to study today; I just wanna play with my new phone. But I am definitely not in a place where I can slack off at all, unlike some of you geniuses with your 85 percents.

I consistently am hitting low 60% on MBE questions and did pretty poorly on the simulated MBE. I'm finding it really hard to keep going though despite knowing that slacking off here could easily result in my failing. Just really really exhausted of it all at this point. I don't know this stuff well enough and this last week is going to kill me.

But isn't low 60% pretty alright, statistically speaking? The barbri average was 61-62% correct on the simulated MBE. That puts you right in average territory, which is far from failing! They said somewhere you should only be worried if you are in the bottom 20% (I guess suggesting they have around a 80% pass rate?).

Pretty sure you'll be fine provided your essays are half decent.

[Kage3212]

Low sixty percent on questions puts you above average in most instances (even above average for all Barbri takers). Keep the perspective about what score you actually need to obtain. Often it is much lower standard than what you are currently holding yourself to.

[kykiske]

I'm seriously the most inconsistent and wild scorer on the MBE.

MBE Refresher: 85/100
MBE, Half Day: 67/100
AM Portion of MBE Full Day: 59/100.

I cannot explain it. I'm just bad.

[mr.hands]

I don't want to study today; I just wanna play with my new phone. But I am definitely not in a place where I can slack off at all, unlike some of you geniuses with your 85 percents.

I consistently am hitting low 60% on MBE questions and did pretty poorly on the simulated MBE. I'm finding it really hard to keep going though despite knowing that slacking off here could easily result in my failing. Just really really exhausted of it all at this point. I don't know this stuff well enough and this last week is going to kill me.

But isn't low 60% pretty alright, statistically speaking? The barbri average was 61-62% correct on the simulated MBE. That puts you right in average territory, which is far from failing! They said somewhere you should only be worried if you are in the bottom 20% (I guess suggesting they have around a 80% pass rate?).

Pretty sure you'll be fine provided your essays are half decent.

60% was above average for the barbri simulates exam. 58% was average and even people with below average scores pass. You're in good shape

[musicfor18]

Low sixty percent on questions puts you above average in most instances (even above average for all Barbri takers). Keep the perspective about what score you actually need to obtain. Often it is much lower standard than what you are currently holding yourself to.

Essays are freaking me out, guys (NY). I'm catching up on a bunch of overdue ones, and there are so many rules I've never seen before!

[charlesxavier]

Low sixty percent on questions puts you above average in most instances (even above average for all Barbri takers). Keep the perspective about what score you actually need to obtain. Often it is much lower standard than what you are currently holding yourself to.

Essays are freaking me out, guys (NY). I'm catching up on a bunch of overdue ones, and there are so many rules I've never seen before!

Don't worry. Try to pick up the rules but at this point focus on getting the method down too. Bad essays are ones that someone who is completely ignorant about the law could read and think the author was clueless (even if they used the right rule). If you can write clearly, hit the issues with a little bit of law, and fill in the gaps you can make it by. Every essay doesn't have to be passing, either.

[jamescastle]

I don't want to study today; I just wanna play with my new phone. But I am definitely not in a place where I can slack off at all, unlike some of you geniuses with your 85 percents.

I consistently am hitting low 60% on MBE questions and did pretty poorly on the simulated MBE. I'm finding it really hard to keep going though despite knowing that slacking off here could easily result in my failing. Just really really exhausted of it all at this point. I don't know this stuff well enough and this last week is going to kill me.

But isn't low 60% pretty alright, statistically speaking? The barbri average was 61-62% correct on the simulated MBE. That puts you right in average territory, which is far from failing! They said somewhere you should only be worried if you are in the bottom 20% (I guess suggesting they have around a 80% pass rate?).

Pretty sure you'll be fine provided your essays are half decent.

Yeah I'd be thrilled if I got 60% when I took the real MBE but when I did the simulated MBE I got 50% (<20%tile) so that's why I'm so nervous.

[brotherdarkness]

Low sixty percent on questions puts you above average in most instances (even above average for all Barbri takers). Keep the perspective about what score you actually need to obtain. Often it is much lower standard than what you are currently holding yourself to.

Essays are freaking me out, guys (NY). I'm catching up on a bunch of overdue ones, and there are so many rules I've never seen before!

[kyle010723]

I'm seriously the most inconsistent and wild scorer on the MBE.

MBE Refresher: 85/100
MBE, Half Day: 67/100
AM Portion of MBE Full Day: 59/100.

I cannot explain it. I'm just bad.

Man, that Refresher score is still insane.

[kykiske]

I'm seriously the most inconsistent and wild scorer on the MBE.

MBE Refresher: 85/100
MBE, Half Day: 67/100
AM Portion of MBE Full Day: 59/100.

I cannot explain it. I'm just bad.

Man, that Refresher score is still insane.

Again, think it was just pure luck. If I was truly capable of that score, I'd be able to reproduce it on a consistent basis.

[kyle010723]

Again, think it was just pure luck. If I was truly capable of that score, I'd be able to reproduce it on a consistent basis.

Well, the Refresher focused mainly on some nuance exceptions. So if you understand those, the general rule should be must easier to comprehend.