Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam Forum

[BelugaWhale]

Civ pro question.

Say a FL person is suing two TX people under proper diversity. The first TX person then crossclaims against the second. That crossclaim has to relate to the subject matter that the FL person is suing the two TX people for. And this is ok even if the crossclaim itself doesnt meet diversity (2 TX people) and if the amount isn't over 75K.

But if there are two cross claims, the second cross claim doesnt have to relate to the subject matter nor fulfill the amount in controversy and it can still be brought right? As long as there is a valid initial crossclaim that relates to the subject matter, the first TX person can bring as many unrelated claims against the second TX person as it can want to and it'll still be proper right?

I believe any cross-claim must be related to the subject matter of the complaint. There cannot be any unrelated cross-claims: this is plaintiff's case, and defendants cannot just decide to litigate some random issues between themselves in the same lawsuit.

See question 7 here:

http://law.wm.edu/documents/July.2009Su ... nswers.pdf

That's why I'm asking, it blew my mind too

[addy11]

Civ pro question.

Say a FL person is suing two TX people under proper diversity. The first TX person then crossclaims against the second. That crossclaim has to relate to the subject matter that the FL person is suing the two TX people for. And this is ok even if the crossclaim itself doesnt meet diversity (2 TX people) and if the amount isn't over 75K.

But if there are two cross claims, the second cross claim doesnt have to relate to the subject matter nor fulfill the amount in controversy and it can still be brought right? As long as there is a valid initial crossclaim that relates to the subject matter, the first TX person can bring as many unrelated claims against the second TX person as it can want to and it'll still be proper right?

1 - I think that the AIC can be waived if it arises out of the same set of facts, but I don't think that diversity can ever be defeated (diversity in this case referring to the claim between the two TX ∆s). Would need to look this up, though. You know what Themis says about absolute answers!
2 - I believe that if there are two CROSS claims, then they MUST be from different sets of facts. The reason I say this is because I believe that a response to a cross claim from the same set of facts is definitionally a counterclaim, and therefore MUST be brought if it is to be preserved.
3 - I just want to reiterate the idea of diversity being a sine qua non. I don't think that a court would have any type of jurisdiction (not diversity if there is no diversity of citizenship; not supplemental if it doesn't arise from the same set of facts) in the "two cross claims" scenario that you posed.

Thanks for the response, but I'm pretty sure that a crossclaim between 2 defendants don't need diversity of citizenship or AIC as long as it relates to the subject matter. But please let me know if you think I'm wrong. Based on page 14 of the themis Fed rules outline: it states "a cross claim . . . may be asserted by 1 defendant against another defendant w/o regard to the AIC or the citizenship of the parties to the cross-claim as long as the court has SMJ"

As for the second part of my question regarding 2 cross claims, the first of which does relate to the subject matter and the second which doesnt, the reason I ask is because of question 7 on this old virginia essay. To clarify, when I mean 2 crossclaims, I mean defendant 1 (as 3rd party plaintiff) filing 2 claims against defendant 2. Not defendant 2 counterclaiming to defendant 1.

http://law.wm.edu/documents/July.2009Su ... nswers.pdf

The answer (which is prepared by a consortium of virginia law school profs) suggests that because of FRCP 18, only the FIRST crossclaim needs to relate to the subject matter and any additional crossclaims DO NOT. The reason I'm asking here on TLS is because this is new to me and kinda blew my mind. Also, these answers have been wrong before so wanna double check them as well.

Apologies! It is late and I didn't read thoroughly enough. Should probably work on that before Tuesday

Perhaps it's justified by sheer economy? Or maybe it's such an unlikely occurrence that there isn't much logic to it? Either way, this is a bit fine grained for me to be thinking about at this point. Having done close to 2000 MBE multiple choice questions, I don't think this issue has come up even once. So I hope you get the confirmation you're looking for! -- but I am gonna get back to professional responsibility rather than make heads or tails of this!

[Underoath]

Guys...I've given up. I'm in California and there's nothing I can do. I will not pass. No, I am not just saying this because I'm stressed. I'm missing issues when I do essays, getting MBE wrong....it's a wrap.

=(

[zor]

Guys...I've given up. I'm in California and there's nothing I can do. I will not pass. No, I am not just saying this because I'm stressed. I'm missing issues when I do essays, getting MBE wrong....it's a wrap.

=(

It's gonna be OK. First of all, we're hopefully all overstudying. I did the simulated essays today and was like OH MY GOD I KNOW NOTHING and then realized that, yeah, I missed a bunch of stupid crap, but I got like 4/5 of the big stuff. And that's WAY better than you need to pass.

Second, even if it's not okay and you fail... it really is OK to fail. I know a few friends who quietly took the February bar this year and they all passed the second time. Life goes on. It will be OK.

[eloise16]

Guys...I've given up. I'm in California and there's nothing I can do. I will not pass. No, I am not just saying this because I'm stressed. I'm missing issues when I do essays, getting MBE wrong....it's a wrap.

=(

It's gonna be OK. First of all, we're hopefully all overstudying. I did the simulated essays today and was like OH MY GOD I KNOW NOTHING and then realized that, yeah, I missed a bunch of stupid crap, but I got like 4/5 of the big stuff. And that's WAY better than you need to pass.

Second, even if it's not okay and you fail... it really is OK to fail. I know a few friends who quietly took the February bar this year and they all passed the second time. Life goes on. It will be OK.

There are model applicant essays that don't get all of the issues! If we had to get all the issues on the essays, no one would pass. And everyone gets some of the MBE wrong. I have to have faith that the 60-70% of people who pass were not just pure geniuses and that a lot of them will be struggling as much as we are. Remember that we only need to get like a C- on this exam. Perfection really isn't the point! Don't hold yourself to that standard. Just keep telling yourself you will pass. At this point all you need is to do is keep focussing and keep your confidence up.

[smalogna]

As for me, question on one of the NY Torts essay PQ's:


Am I to just assume that drivers have no fault insurance in NY unless the fact pattern states otherwise? HALP!

You've been such a rockstar with info here I didn't want your question to go unanswered. According to the outline NY requires that all owners insure their vehicles, and all insurance policies must include the no-fault provision. I'm just planning on throwing the no-fault rule in there in any essay q that involves a motor vehicle, even if the fact pattern says there is no insurance, and then just say it doesn't apply if it is in fact not applicable. Maybe half a point even if it's not on the grader's point sheet, right?

Thanks!

Yeah if you take a look at the answers from past years, some of them are straight up stream of consciousness writing. So my plan is to do the exact same as what you're thinking if the fact pattern is a collision between drivers and the question is asking about filing suit and damages.

So assuming average is what, a 60 on essays? And the "model answers" are stream of consciousness writing and said to be above average...we got this as long as we do some somewhat decent stream of consciousness. Let's do this!!!

Actually, average in NY on essays is 45-55. You get all 60s, you're golden and can probably guess half the MBE and still pass.

Thank you friend now I'm really confident because the essays are my main concern. Bring on Tuesday!

[smalogna]

Guys...I've given up. I'm in California and there's nothing I can do. I will not pass. No, I am not just saying this because I'm stressed. I'm missing issues when I do essays, getting MBE wrong....it's a wrap.

=(

It's gonna be OK. First of all, we're hopefully all overstudying. I did the simulated essays today and was like OH MY GOD I KNOW NOTHING and then realized that, yeah, I missed a bunch of stupid crap, but I got like 4/5 of the big stuff. And that's WAY better than you need to pass.

Second, even if it's not okay and you fail... it really is OK to fail. I know a few friends who quietly took the February bar this year and they all passed the second time. Life goes on. It will be OK.

There are model applicant essays that don't get all of the issues! If we had to get all the issues on the essays, no one would pass. And everyone gets some of the MBE wrong. I have to have faith that the 60-70% of people who pass were not just pure geniuses and that a lot of them will be struggling as much as we are. Remember that we only need to get like a C- on this exam. Perfection really isn't the point! Don't hold yourself to that standard. Just keep telling yourself you will pass. At this point all you need is to do is keep focussing and keep your confidence up.

Not even a C-, a D. Just need a D. We're all studying and preparing like we're trying to CALI this thing.

[sp1kedrat]

Can someone PLEASE explain what the six covenants in a general/special warranty deed are? The lecture and the final review outline say different things about what each entail and it's driving me crazy.

[Ahyis]

Just did the final mixed set 18... Wow, it really scraped the bottom of the barrel - mixture of ones I'd seen before, and inexplicably stupid modified NCBE questions to torment me.

[zot1]

Guys...I've given up. I'm in California and there's nothing I can do. I will not pass. No, I am not just saying this because I'm stressed. I'm missing issues when I do essays, getting MBE wrong....it's a wrap.

=(

It's gonna be OK. First of all, we're hopefully all overstudying. I did the simulated essays today and was like OH MY GOD I KNOW NOTHING and then realized that, yeah, I missed a bunch of stupid crap, but I got like 4/5 of the big stuff. And that's WAY better than you need to pass.

Second, even if it's not okay and you fail... it really is OK to fail. I know a few friends who quietly took the February bar this year and they all passed the second time. Life goes on. It will be OK.

There are model applicant essays that don't get all of the issues! If we had to get all the issues on the essays, no one would pass. And everyone gets some of the MBE wrong. I have to have faith that the 60-70% of people who pass were not just pure geniuses and that a lot of them will be struggling as much as we are. Remember that we only need to get like a C- on this exam. Perfection really isn't the point! Don't hold yourself to that standard. Just keep telling yourself you will pass. At this point all you need is to do is keep focussing and keep your confidence up.

Not even a C-, a D. Just need a D. We're all studying and preparing like we're trying to CALI this thing.

Hang in there, Underoath. I don't think any of us feels like we know enough and I think that's standard across the board. Just keep reviewing and practicing this next few days. Don't give up until you've gone through it. There's no reason to. Chin up, we are almost done with this thing. And if we don't pass, we will be at least experienced for the next time around.

[IamIn]

Civ pro question.

Say a FL person is suing two TX people under proper diversity. The first TX person then crossclaims against the second. That crossclaim has to relate to the subject matter that the FL person is suing the two TX people for. And this is ok even if the crossclaim itself doesnt meet diversity (2 TX people) and if the amount isn't over 75K.

But if there are two cross claims, the second cross claim doesnt have to relate to the subject matter nor fulfill the amount in controversy and it can still be brought right? As long as there is a valid initial crossclaim that relates to the subject matter, the first TX person can bring as many unrelated claims against the second TX person as it can want to and it'll still be proper right?

I believe any cross-claim must be related to the subject matter of the complaint. There cannot be any unrelated cross-claims: this is plaintiff's case, and defendants cannot just decide to litigate some random issues between themselves in the same lawsuit.

See question 7 here:

http://law.wm.edu/documents/July.2009Su ... nswers.pdf

That's why I'm asking, it blew my mind too

Well I think they're wrong..
Someone here has already posted an answer from that website that didn't make any sense.. So maybe it's just another one..

[sd5289]

Can someone PLEASE explain what the six covenants in a general/special warranty deed are? The lecture and the final review outline say different things about what each entail and it's driving me crazy.

There's an important distinction here:

- General warranty deeds have all 6 covenants (3 present, 3 future).
- Special warranty deeds only have the 3 present covenants.

3 present covenants are:

- grantor has good title (meaning s/he actually owns it)
- grantor has the right to convey title
- there are no undeclared encumbrances on the land (like an easement)

3 future covenants are:

- grantor will defend against future lawful claims of interest
- grantor guarantees there are no superior 3rd party claims on the land
- "further assurances" (meaning that grantor will do whatever s/he reasonably can to pass title if it's later found to be imperfect)

In typing this out I could remember the 3 present covenants and the first future covenant off the top of my head, but had to look the last two up. There's some overlap between the present and future covenants (see right to convey vs no superior 3rd party claims), BUT just remember that in a special warranty deed, the grantor only guarantees that s/he has the right to convey up to the point of conveyance. Once the grantee takes title, they're on their own if a future 3rd party claim comes up.

[milesdavisjd]

This is actually fucking awesome. Why the hell this isn't just a chart in the Themis final outline is beyond me.

Agreed. I've been charting everything out and it's made it a hell of a lot easier to remember.

Thank you, this is incredibly helpful. Saving this one now!

[hadisious]

This is how I feel with just a few days left

Time to bring it home people!

[sd5289]

Themis thinks I'm doing 400 questions today.

Hahaha, no.

[zot1]

MBE 17 kicked my butt.

I might go cry and get a drink now. Bye.

[gr8scOtt!]

This is how I feel with just a few days left

I got more stressed out just watching that

[joloyolo]

I dont like how I keep getting the same questions in later MBE sets.

I know they reuse some of the facts and ask a different question based on those facts, but Im getting the exact same question as in earlier sets. I remember because I missed it the first time.


Also, anyone else get their last graded essay that seemed to be uncharacteristically higher than any of my others. Coincidence that the exam is in a couple days? Likely not.

[zot1]

MBE 17 kicked my butt.

I might go cry and get a drink now. Bye.

I decided that since I don't feel like looking through outlines/lecture handouts anymore, I would go through all the MBE questions I've gotten wrong in the past and review that way (I have done this once before). It is proving quite useful so far. I'm only on Property, but I found that I didn't know the rule that life interest possessors owed a duty to pay tax and interests (if income) and that future interest holder had a duty to pay principal. I literally got like 7 questions wrong just on this issue.

So if you're like me and don't feel like reading the same stuff again, this might be another way to do review without hating your life or feeling like your brain will explode.

[anon sequitur]

So if you're like me and don't feel like reading the same stuff again, this might be another way to do review without hating your life or feeling like your brain will explode.

Yeah, I've been doing this too, I think I may be done with MBE or maybe do one more 50 question set, because I don't need to create more anxiety by underperforming a day before the test.

And being able to see every question for a specific subject and just go through to see where you got it wrong is really, really helpful and I think maybe the most efficient way you could study for the MBE at this point.

[sd5289]

So if you're like me and don't feel like reading the same stuff again, this might be another way to do review without hating your life or feeling like your brain will explode.

Yeah, I've been doing this too, I think I may be done with MBE or maybe do one more 50 question set, because I don't need to create more anxiety by underperforming a day before the test.

And being able to see every question for a specific subject and just go through to see where you got it wrong is really, really helpful and I think maybe the most efficient way you could study for the MBE at this point.

I don't really plan on doing much studying the day before. All it will do is stress you out, make you more tired, etc., and there's nothing you can do in that last day of studying that's going to have an effect on passing. I'm actually doing my marathon training long run on Monday instead of the traditional Sunday because it'll release some stress, take my mind off the bar, and I'll certainly fall asleep that night since long runs always have that effect.

I'm doing some essays and maybe an MBE set today, maybe a few essays tomorrow, and mostly reviewing and flashcards today and tomorrow.

I'm ready to take it now. If it was tomorrow I'd be ecstatic. I just want it over with. And now I don't want to do anything that's going to torpedo how I feel right now.

[Nelson]

Also, anyone else get their last graded essay that seemed to be uncharacteristically higher than any of my others. Coincidence that the exam is in a couple days? Likely not.

My final essay grade was my lowest of all 8 graded essays. Don't read too much into it unnecessarily.

[Underoath]

Thank you guys...it means a lot to have some support. I feel a little better today, but haven't started anything soooo...time to fuck up my confidence and get things wrong jk haha will check in a little later on my progress

[Confused7]

Thank you guys...it means a lot to have some support. I feel a little better today, but haven't started anything soooo...time to fuck up my confidence and get things wrong jk haha will check in a little later on my progress

I haven't done anything either today - don't worry. Study your weak spots for the next few days but don't burn yourself out.

[MrMustache]

I don't feel ready. I feel like I fully understand all the concepts and I have lately been consistently getting 70s on the MBE sets, but I don't feel ready for the essays. I can't spit out any of the rules for any of the subjects.

Anyone know any good countries to move to?