February 2015 Bar Exam Forum

[jarofsoup]

I've done 2 simulations. I am just drilling my weaknesses now and destroying my averages.

[brohaters1]

How many simulated MBE exams have you all done?

I ask because I can't decide if time would be well spent taking another one or just sticking to 50 (or 100) question sets.

I'm literally having the hardest time trying to allocate my time for this last week - so much yet so little time.

I did BarBri's midterm and I *might* do the simulated final tomorrow. I think it's more than fine to stick to 50 or 100 question sets if you're able to finish them in time. I think the full simulated tests are more tests of endurance.

Anyone know the goal on Barbri's Simulated Final Exam? I cannot find it anywhere

[YibanRen]

Is there a brightline rule when reputation/opinion evidence is not relevant to a specific character trait? For example, Child abuse case, can D bring in R/O witness that he has always been good with children (without mentioning specific acts?)

[ilovetypos]

Is there a brightline rule when reputation/opinion evidence is not relevant to a specific character trait? For example, Child abuse case, can D bring in R/O witness that he has always been good with children (without mentioning specific acts?)

I think it just has to be relevant to the type of crime charged, so I think for child abuse, it would be something like the example you gave. Also, specific prior acts re: sexual molestation/sexual abuse can always be brought in to show propensity in later suits or prosecutions for sexual molestation/sexual abuse.

[dxchpwd]

Anybody else finding contradictions between some of barbri questions and NCBE?

[minnbills]

Anybody else finding contradictions between some of barbri questions and NCBE?

I'm finding a lot of contradictions between Barbri's outlines and its MBE questions.

Also, conviser is the shit.

[dxchpwd]

Anybody else finding contradictions between some of barbri questions and NCBE?

I'm finding a lot of contradictions between Barbri's outlines and its MBE questions.

Also, conviser is the shit.

You mean lecture handouts?

[minnbills]

Anybody else finding contradictions between some of barbri questions and NCBE?

I'm finding a lot of contradictions between Barbri's outlines and its MBE questions.

Also, conviser is the shit.

You mean lecture handouts?

I have two sets of outlines from Barbri, plus the lecture handouts, plus the Conviser

[fslexcduck]

Does anyone in NY understand the distinction between depraved heart murder (2nd degree murder) and reckless murder (2nd degree manslaughter)?

I have the reckless murder as conscious disregard and awareness of substantial and unjustifiable risk, whereas depraved heart is reckless engaging in conduct that causes a grave risk. It just seems like the difference only turns on "substantial risk" vs. "grave risk," yet the difference in severity between murder2 and manslaughter2 is very big, so this doesn't make sense to me.

Can anyone help me out, either by way of explanation or examples of each? I've tried looking online but didn't find much.

[minnbills]

Today's been better. Hit 13/18 on three barbri sets today.

[numbertwo88]

Today's been better. Hit 13/18 on three barbri sets today.

There are definitely peaks and valleys - the peaks are a good mental boost.

[numbertwo88]

So ... I've officially given up on trying to differentiate between the different insanity tests. Those are questions on the MBE that I'm not going to get right unless I magically guess the right answer.

I hate those damn tests and they just are not sticking in my mind.

[cooperlaserpup]

Does anyone in NY understand the distinction between depraved heart murder (2nd degree murder) and reckless murder (2nd degree manslaughter)?

I have the reckless murder as conscious disregard and awareness of substantial and unjustifiable risk, whereas depraved heart is reckless engaging in conduct that causes a grave risk. It just seems like the difference only turns on "substantial risk" vs. "grave risk," yet the difference in severity between murder2 and manslaughter2 is very big, so this doesn't make sense to me.

Can anyone help me out, either by way of explanation or examples of each? I've tried looking online but didn't find much.

My understanding is that "reckless murder" can be thought of the same as criminally negligent homicide.

So, depraved heart is throwing knives at your friend who is standing against a wall.

Reckless murder is driving 120 with other reckless conduct. Maybe speeding while drag racing. (speeding alone is not enough.)

The distinction is a subtle one and I totally get your confusion. I am almost completely certain that you will not see reckless murder on an exam, because it is hard to define. My understanding is that depraved heart is a situation where essentially D should know he is likely to kill or seriously hurt someone. For reckless murder D is being a reckless ass, but there's almost less certainty that the death will result. Also, the act in depraved heart is always going to be kind of ridiculous, where the act in reckless murder is more common place. Its very often vehicle cases where they can't make out the DUI manslaughter. Just substitute other conduct for the DUI part, if that makes sense.

Not sure if that's helpful or not, but that's how I think of it. Honestly I wouldn't stress about it too much. If you run across a situation where either one seems possible, and you list the elements for both and analyze both, chances are you will do just fine.

[JoanSloan]

So, I've been doing civ pro questions on Adaptibar, and they seem to throw Twombly and Iqbal out the window for a lot of the 12(b)(6) questions.

I do wonder if this will be an issue on the test. I think I'm starting to get conditioned by adaptibar to respond to those questions with a very liberal interpretation of Twombly's applicability.

Anybody else finding contradictions between some of barbri questions and NCBE?

Yup! Barbri errs in reasoning and statements of law on some of its MBE practice questions. The funny part? That's actually not a bad thing. In the most difficult questions, you'll have a hard time determining whether the mistake was yours or theirs. That'll push you to review the law and really think through problems.

[fslexcduck]

My understanding is that "reckless murder" can be thought of the same as criminally negligent homicide.

So, depraved heart is throwing knives at your friend who is standing against a wall.

Reckless murder is driving 120 with other reckless conduct. Maybe speeding while drag racing. (speeding alone is not enough.)

The distinction is a subtle one and I totally get your confusion. I am almost completely certain that you will not see reckless murder on an exam, because it is hard to define. My understanding is that depraved heart is a situation where essentially D should know he is likely to kill or seriously hurt someone. For reckless murder D is being a reckless ass, but there's almost less certainty that the death will result. Also, the act in depraved heart is always going to be kind of ridiculous, where the act in reckless murder is more common place. Its very often vehicle cases where they can't make out the DUI manslaughter. Just substitute other conduct for the DUI part, if that makes sense.

Not sure if that's helpful or not, but that's how I think of it. Honestly I wouldn't stress about it too much. If you run across a situation where either one seems possible, and you list the elements for both and analyze both, chances are you will do just fine.

yeah totally helpful, thanks a lot. that's actually really easy. manslaughter is basically the same as it is at common law...

sometimes I feel like the way they state these rules just completely overcomplicates the hell out of everything.

[cooperlaserpup]

I'm sure this has been pointed out somewhere, but for those also taking NY this website is pretty nifty: http://www.seperac.com/calc-bar-f14.php

Obviously it is meant for people who have failed and were given detailed info about their scores, but by putting in my score from the MBE in July (passed another jurisdiction) I was able to compute that based on the february 2014 scale I need to average about 46 points per essay. Based on the July 2014 I would need even lower, about a 42. This put my mind at ease somewhat, because my essays feel terrible at this point. I find it SO hard to remember all the details that I need to, at least based on the feedback my Themis advisor gives. I still don't think I'd pass if I took it tomorrow, but with a week to drill in some law and read just about every past essay there is, I definitely think I can average 50 pts. Knock on wood.

Just wanted to share in case anyone else likes playing the numbers game....

good luck all

[YibanRen]

Just a couple of stream of consciousness things:

1) Barbri's class handouts are a great tool because they state the law as generally as possible (look at the statutes/cases, the law is basically an easier approximation and not the real verbiage), they only go past generalities when the test is something really important. You are wasting time by trying to memorize the terms of art in the CMR.

2) If you want to pass (and you're not in California), do the following (any additions would be helpful):

1) MBE: learn (not just memorize) the basics perfectly from your mini outlines or your class outlines, this will give you 50% points. Then learn as many of the lesser rules in the longer outlines as possible for the five detail topics (evidence, crim pro, rp, civ pro, and contracts). This knowledge will enable you to drill down to two remaining answers on the remaining 50% of the MBE. Do a decent job of guessing, and you probably get 60-70%.

2) Essays/PTs: Learn to write essays and PTs for form, not substance. Really to do well enough, you need to avoid failure on any essay. This can be accomplished by providing the right form, analysis and close-enough rule statements that look good to the eye of the reader.

3)Non-MBE topics: Memorize key words and approximate on non-MBE/state law topics. You just need to know the major tests for the non-MBE topics, as well as key words and approximations of the rest of the information to issue spot. Most essays will start off with an easy test for a non-MBE topic, you hit this and then issue spot and approximate (bs) for the rest of the tests and write with good form and analysis and you pass.

[cooperlaserpup]

I'm wondering what you all think about the whole february bar being harder than july thing. With the addition of civ pro MBEs I'm getting nervous. Essays are scaled based on the average MBE score. Doesn't that mean that a lower average MBE (possibly due to civ pro) will create a terrible scale for essays, thus leading to a sharp decline in passage rate of people who might otherwise have passed? MBE scale is already lower in feb due to retakers and people who have to work while they study, which contributes to the fact that passage rates are generally lower.

If I am not reasoning this out correctly, please let me know. I know at this point it doesn't matter, but it just sort of freaks me out because I think I am someone who should pass by a little bit, not with flying colors, and a damaging scale could more or less ruin my life (sorry for the drama, just one of those days in bar prep land...)

[numbertwo88]

I'm wondering what you all think about the whole february bar being harder than july thing. With the addition of civ pro MBEs I'm getting nervous. Essays are scaled based on the average MBE score. Doesn't that mean that a lower average MBE (possibly due to civ pro) will create a terrible scale for essays, thus leading to a sharp decline in passage rate of people who might otherwise have passed? MBE scale is already lower in feb due to retakers and people who have to work while they study, which contributes to the fact that passage rates are generally lower.

If I am not reasoning this out correctly, please let me know. I know at this point it doesn't matter, but it just sort of freaks me out because I think I am someone who should pass by a little bit, not with flying colors, and a damaging scale could more or less ruin my life (sorry for the drama, just one of those days in bar prep land...)

I'm legit terrified about the civ pro questions. It's my lowest average over the course of my studying and in every problem set I keep getting 50% of them right because there's something new being thrown at me. I get the "big picture" items but the smaller nuances? No, because I don't have time to memorize all of the damn rules of civil procedure. My only solace is literally looking at the questions released by the NCBEX and praying they're closer to reality than what the bar prep companies are releasing. I'm also trying to really nail the other MBE subjects to the best of my ability because they're more reliable, in a sense.

Maybe everyone will bomb civ pro questions and they'll have to scale accordingly? Or at least we'll all do comparable to one another hopefully ... I feel like that might be more likely because we're literally the guinea pigs for this bullshit.

[YibanRen]

I'm wondering what you all think about the whole february bar being harder than july thing. With the addition of civ pro MBEs I'm getting nervous. Essays are scaled based on the average MBE score. Doesn't that mean that a lower average MBE (possibly due to civ pro) will create a terrible scale for essays, thus leading to a sharp decline in passage rate of people who might otherwise have passed? MBE scale is already lower in feb due to retakers and people who have to work while they study, which contributes to the fact that passage rates are generally lower.

If I am not reasoning this out correctly, please let me know. I know at this point it doesn't matter, but it just sort of freaks me out because I think I am someone who should pass by a little bit, not with flying colors, and a damaging scale could more or less ruin my life (sorry for the drama, just one of those days in bar prep land...)

I'm legit terrified about the civ pro questions. It's my lowest average over the course of my studying and in every problem set I keep getting 50% of them right because there's something new being thrown at me. I get the "big picture" items but the smaller nuances? No, because I don't have time to memorize all of the damn rules of civil procedure. My only solace is literally looking at the questions released by the NCBEX and praying they're closer to reality than what the bar prep companies are releasing. I'm also trying to really nail the other MBE subjects to the best of my ability because they're more reliable, in a sense.

Maybe everyone will bomb civ pro questions and they'll have to scale accordingly? Or at least we'll all do comparable to one another hopefully ... I feel like that might be more likely because we're literally the guinea pigs for this bullshit.

NCBEX thought this through. They are professionals, and the way they avoid the problems you've illustrated is making most civ pro questions like con law, torts, and crim questions instead of evidence, crim pro, Ks, and rp questions. They will test the all of the general rules in a straightforward way with above average difficultly in wording (but clear right answers). This will make up 70% of the Civ Pro Qs. So, everyone who understands the basic rules well can be pretty comfortable. There will be some hard ones, that test on stuff you don't know, but there won't be many.

[ilovetypos]

How many simulated MBE exams have you all done?

I ask because I can't decide if time would be well spent taking another one or just sticking to 50 (or 100) question sets.

I'm literally having the hardest time trying to allocate my time for this last week - so much yet so little time.

I did BarBri's midterm and I *might* do the simulated final tomorrow. I think it's more than fine to stick to 50 or 100 question sets if you're able to finish them in time. I think the full simulated tests are more tests of endurance.

Anyone know the goal on Barbri's Simulated Final Exam? I cannot find it anywhere

The one that includes the civ pro questions is 57.

[numbertwo88]

I'm wondering what you all think about the whole february bar being harder than july thing. With the addition of civ pro MBEs I'm getting nervous. Essays are scaled based on the average MBE score. Doesn't that mean that a lower average MBE (possibly due to civ pro) will create a terrible scale for essays, thus leading to a sharp decline in passage rate of people who might otherwise have passed? MBE scale is already lower in feb due to retakers and people who have to work while they study, which contributes to the fact that passage rates are generally lower.

If I am not reasoning this out correctly, please let me know. I know at this point it doesn't matter, but it just sort of freaks me out because I think I am someone who should pass by a little bit, not with flying colors, and a damaging scale could more or less ruin my life (sorry for the drama, just one of those days in bar prep land...)

I'm legit terrified about the civ pro questions. It's my lowest average over the course of my studying and in every problem set I keep getting 50% of them right because there's something new being thrown at me. I get the "big picture" items but the smaller nuances? No, because I don't have time to memorize all of the damn rules of civil procedure. My only solace is literally looking at the questions released by the NCBEX and praying they're closer to reality than what the bar prep companies are releasing. I'm also trying to really nail the other MBE subjects to the best of my ability because they're more reliable, in a sense.

Maybe everyone will bomb civ pro questions and they'll have to scale accordingly? Or at least we'll all do comparable to one another hopefully ... I feel like that might be more likely because we're literally the guinea pigs for this bullshit.

NCBEX thought this through. They are professionals, and the way they avoid the problems you've illustrated is making most civ pro questions like con law, torts, and crim questions instead of evidence, crim pro, Ks, and rp questions. They will test the all of the general rules in a straightforward way with above average difficultly in wording (but clear right answers). This will make up 70% of the Civ Pro Qs. So, everyone who understands the basic rules well can be pretty comfortable. There will be some hard ones, that test on stuff you don't know, but there won't be many.

After being deemed part of the "less able" group over the summer I don't trust the NCBEX. At all.

[cooperlaserpup]

I'm wondering what you all think about the whole february bar being harder than july thing. With the addition of civ pro MBEs I'm getting nervous. Essays are scaled based on the average MBE score. Doesn't that mean that a lower average MBE (possibly due to civ pro) will create a terrible scale for essays, thus leading to a sharp decline in passage rate of people who might otherwise have passed? MBE scale is already lower in feb due to retakers and people who have to work while they study, which contributes to the fact that passage rates are generally lower.

If I am not reasoning this out correctly, please let me know. I know at this point it doesn't matter, but it just sort of freaks me out because I think I am someone who should pass by a little bit, not with flying colors, and a damaging scale could more or less ruin my life (sorry for the drama, just one of those days in bar prep land...)

I'm legit terrified about the civ pro questions. It's my lowest average over the course of my studying and in every problem set I keep getting 50% of them right because there's something new being thrown at me. I get the "big picture" items but the smaller nuances? No, because I don't have time to memorize all of the damn rules of civil procedure. My only solace is literally looking at the questions released by the NCBEX and praying they're closer to reality than what the bar prep companies are releasing. I'm also trying to really nail the other MBE subjects to the best of my ability because they're more reliable, in a sense.

Maybe everyone will bomb civ pro questions and they'll have to scale accordingly? Or at least we'll all do comparable to one another hopefully ... I feel like that might be more likely because we're literally the guinea pigs for this bullshit.

NCBEX thought this through. They are professionals, and the way they avoid the problems you've illustrated is making most civ pro questions like con law, torts, and crim questions instead of evidence, crim pro, Ks, and rp questions. They will test the all of the general rules in a straightforward way with above average difficultly in wording (but clear right answers). This will make up 70% of the Civ Pro Qs. So, everyone who understands the basic rules well can be pretty comfortable. There will be some hard ones, that test on stuff you don't know, but there won't be many.

After being deemed part of the "less able" group over the summer I don't trust the NCBEX. At all.

Hah I hope they are to be trusted!

But even putting aside the issue of civ pro specifically, aren't the essays scaled to the MBE? So does a lower average MBE cause a lower scale and thus, a lower pass rate? Am I not understanding this correctly? Wouldn't that then mean that an above average MBE-taker and below average essay-writer could suffer extensively by taking a feb administration rather than july?

[nvbar2015]

For those of you taking Barbri, have you basically completed/outlined all of the essays in the essay testing book for each subject?

[YibanRen]

For those of you taking Barbri, have you basically completed/outlined all of the essays in the essay testing book for each subject?

No, I've done a handful. I'm focusing on getting my law memorized/in my brain and the MBE, and as long as feel comfortable with the timing and structure I'm not doing many more.