BarBri Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam Forum

[brotherdarkness]

Yes. fuck this test.

Also, can anyone give me a quick tl/dr on what mr marino is saying here? What trick?

http://abovethelaw.com/2015/02/ask-the- ... -building/


(I realize that this is the law school equivalent of horrible clickbait, but I still want to know).

He seems to be saying he knows how to teach people how to make up law (make up a rule, state it, then bullshit after... or something like that), whereas most Bar prep companies try to force students to memorize all of the law (an impossible task). I get the impression that he was hawking some snake oil secret methodology of bullshitting your way to success.

yes exactly. but does his snake oil translate to a bunch of points? So say you forget the rule....is this a confidence trick? Do we just make something up and CRAC as if our "R" was correct? If so, thats awesome!

Well, if you forget the rule, your only option is to make one up and keep on keepin' on. Not sure what the author means by suggesting he can teach someone how to bullshit better than normal. Maybe some people are afraid to make up a rule and start spouting off about "the spirit of the law" and "principles of equity/fairness," but that's not making up a rule and is obviously a bad idea. I don't see how someone can teach you how to make up a rule better than you could do on your own.

[RaleighStClair]

I dunno if you guys have done the 6th wills essay in the MEET book, but damn, if I get that essay, I am screwed.

[Neff]

Yes. fuck this test.

Also, can anyone give me a quick tl/dr on what mr marino is saying here? What trick?

http://abovethelaw.com/2015/02/ask-the- ... -building/


(I realize that this is the law school equivalent of horrible clickbait, but I still want to know).

He seems to be saying he knows how to teach people how to make up law (make up a rule, state it, then bullshit after... or something like that), whereas most Bar prep companies try to force students to memorize all of the law (an impossible task). I get the impression that he was hawking some snake oil secret methodology of bullshitting your way to success.

yes exactly. but does his snake oil translate to a bunch of points? So say you forget the rule....is this a confidence trick? Do we just make something up and CRAC as if our "R" was correct? If so, thats awesome!

Well, if you forget the rule, your only option is to make one up and keep on keepin' on. Not sure what the author means by suggesting he can teach someone how to bullshit better than normal. Maybe some people are afraid to make up a rule and start spouting off about "the spirit of the law" and "principles of equity/fairness," but that's not making up a rule and is obviously a bad idea. I don't see how someone can teach you how to make up a rule better than you could do on your own.

I don't think he's off at all. I still refuse to believe that passing the bar in the vast majority of states requires anything close to memorizing even half the rules Barbri dumps on you. Think about it. A prompt contains a bunch of facts and a few questions about those facts. Each fact is relevant in some way to the answer. If you don't know the rules, you make them up so that they make use of each of the facts in a way that is intuitive and plausible. Granted, if you didn't know ANY of the law in that area, your "creation" might not be very convincing. But let's say you remember two of the five elements of the test. Applying those two elements and making up the rest using the facts will be more than enough to pass.

I think the natural inclination for people in our shoes is to seriously overestimate where others are. It's not like the thousands of others have the rules memorized at this point and we're the ones left behind. At the very least, we're all in the same spot. And far more likely, we are way ahead of the bottom quarter who 1) can't write, 2) didn't take bar prep, 3) don't speak English (e.g. lots of LLMs in my state with minimal English skills), 4) got sick, or 5) are lazy/depressed. If you don't feel like you're where you should be, you're in great shape -- because most people who should be panicking don't even know enough to panic.

[RaleighStClair]

I don't think he's off at all. I still refuse to believe that passing the bar in the vast majority of states requires anything close to memorizing even half the rules Barbri dumps on you. Think about it. A prompt contains a bunch of facts and a few questions about those facts. Each fact is relevant in some way to the answer. If you don't know the rules, you make them up so that they make use of each of the facts in a way that is intuitive and plausible. Granted, if you didn't know ANY of the law in that area, your "creation" might not be very convincing. But let's say you remember two of the five elements of the test. Applying those two elements and making up the rest using the facts will be more than enough to pass.

I think the natural inclination for people in our shoes is to seriously overestimate where others are. It's not like the thousands of others have the rules memorized at this point and we're the ones left behind. At the very least, we're all in the same spot. And far more likely, we are way ahead of the bottom quarter who 1) can't write, 2) didn't take bar prep, 3) don't speak English (e.g. lots of LLMs in my state with minimal English skills), 4) got sick, or 5) are lazy/depressed. If you don't feel like you're where you should be, you're in great shape -- because most people who should be panicking don't even know enough to panic.

Man, your optimism is unreal. But, I don't know about the above. Do you know that you can get points if you apply facts to an incorrect rule?

[RaleighStClair]

I think you're definitely on point with everything in the second paragraph though.

[Neff]

I don't think he's off at all. I still refuse to believe that passing the bar in the vast majority of states requires anything close to memorizing even half the rules Barbri dumps on you. Think about it. A prompt contains a bunch of facts and a few questions about those facts. Each fact is relevant in some way to the answer. If you don't know the rules, you make them up so that they make use of each of the facts in a way that is intuitive and plausible. Granted, if you didn't know ANY of the law in that area, your "creation" might not be very convincing. But let's say you remember two of the five elements of the test. Applying those two elements and making up the rest using the facts will be more than enough to pass.

I think the natural inclination for people in our shoes is to seriously overestimate where others are. It's not like the thousands of others have the rules memorized at this point and we're the ones left behind. At the very least, we're all in the same spot. And far more likely, we are way ahead of the bottom quarter who 1) can't write, 2) didn't take bar prep, 3) don't speak English (e.g. lots of LLMs in my state with minimal English skills), 4) got sick, or 5) are lazy/depressed. If you don't feel like you're where you should be, you're in great shape -- because most people who should be panicking don't even know enough to panic.

Man, your optimism is unreal. But, I don't know about the above. Do you know that you can get points if you apply facts to an incorrect rule?

It's not optimism. It's the truth. The great Mike Sims has been telling us repeatedly in his essay-writing videos that making up the rules is okay and you can pass by making up rules so long as you follow CRAC and apply them to facts. And I'm assuming this is the case for every state and not just mine because I doubt Sims' videos are custom-tailored for each state. If you go on the website of my state bar, download their MODEL answers, and count up how many of the rules are off/wrong. I mean, come on, you really think you're the only one out of thousands who can't memorize the inhumane amount of shit they throw at us. To echo Ralph Wiggum, that's just unpossible.

[Neff]

I'm not, however, advocating just winging it. I mean, I've been studying too. It's just that, when it comes to essays, I take everything with a huge grain of salt. If you put in reasonable efforts (not best efforts) into Barbri, the law of averages basically guarantees you will pass.

[RaleighStClair]

I'm not, however, advocating just winging it. I mean, I've been studying too. It's just that, when it comes to essays, I take everything with a huge grain of salt. If you put in reasonable efforts (not best efforts) into Barbri, the law of averages basically guarantees you will pass.

You're probably right. And there really is no other choice if you don't know the rule than to make one up and try to keep your analysis flowing logically. I'm just weary of tightassed graders seeing it and giving little to no credit because it was flawed from the start. But there's nothing you can really do about that.

[xChiTowNx]

I don't know the particular question you are referring to, but I do remember that tickets are revocable licenses. Did you have Franzese for Property? For some reason, I remembered her story about the couple and Broadway tickets, where the couple was asked to leave after they were already seated bcs. some movie star was in the theater and the owners thought she would want those seats.

It wasn't just some movie star -- IT WAS BARBARA MOTHEREFFING STREISAND!

sadly, that's the only thing I remembered fromproperty

[Neff]

I'm not, however, advocating just winging it. I mean, I've been studying too. It's just that, when it comes to essays, I take everything with a huge grain of salt. If you put in reasonable efforts (not best efforts) into Barbri, the law of averages basically guarantees you will pass.

You're probably right. And there really is no other choice if you don't know the rule than to make one up and try to keep your analysis flowing logically. I'm just weary of tightassed graders seeing it and giving little to no credit because it was flawed from the start. But there's nothing you can really do about that.

Yeah, I hear you. There are a lot of unknown variables. Not trying to belittle your worries in any way, but I do genuinely believe you'll see your score in two months and be like, I can't believe I actually thought at one point that I wasn't going to pass. I know this because, statistically speaking, the people who care enough to daily/hourly frequent the TLS bar prep forum are the cream of the crop when it comes to effort and diligence.

[kyle010723]

errr, got pwned by Emanuael's civ pro with a 20% drop from my MPQ average... anyone else did those by any chance?

Yeah I was only at 60% for Civ Pro and I had been cruising along in the others at 75%. His Civ Pro was wayyy harder than BarBri's. Just the fact that it's such a new topic, I don't think anyone knows exactly what they'll be like.

Felt like this with part of the property. Saw a question w/r/t sports arena tickets [and how they are revocable licenses] and was like, "Hmmm... I don't think that's in my lecture notes."

So I have been plowing forward with Emanuael subject sets since we're mostly done with MPQ subject sets. And I came to this one odd feeling/conclusion. Because Emanuael's questions look so different (as to Barbri), they make you feel so uncomfortable doing them, but I ended up doing surprisingly well (usually by a decent margin) on the subjects I've done so far (except Civ Pro). So whatever Barbri is doing, something is working.

[jamescastle]

I refuse to be optimistic until I find out on November 5/6 whether or not I passed.

[Danger Zone]

Yes. fuck this test.

Also, can anyone give me a quick tl/dr on what mr marino is saying here? What trick?

http://abovethelaw.com/2015/02/ask-the- ... -building/


(I realize that this is the law school equivalent of horrible clickbait, but I still want to know).

He seems to be saying he knows how to teach people how to make up law (make up a rule, state it, then bullshit after... or something like that), whereas most Bar prep companies try to force students to memorize all of the law (an impossible task). I get the impression that he was hawking some snake oil secret methodology of bullshitting your way to success.

yes exactly. but does his snake oil translate to a bunch of points? So say you forget the rule....is this a confidence trick? Do we just make something up and CRAC as if our "R" was correct? If so, thats awesome!

Well, if you forget the rule, your only option is to make one up and keep on keepin' on. Not sure what the author means by suggesting he can teach someone how to bullshit better than normal. Maybe some people are afraid to make up a rule and start spouting off about "the spirit of the law" and "principles of equity/fairness," but that's not making up a rule and is obviously a bad idea. I don't see how someone can teach you how to make up a rule better than you could do on your own.

I don't think he's off at all. I still refuse to believe that passing the bar in the vast majority of states requires anything close to memorizing even half the rules Barbri dumps on you. Think about it. A prompt contains a bunch of facts and a few questions about those facts. Each fact is relevant in some way to the answer. If you don't know the rules, you make them up so that they make use of each of the facts in a way that is intuitive and plausible. Granted, if you didn't know ANY of the law in that area, your "creation" might not be very convincing. But let's say you remember two of the five elements of the test. Applying those two elements and making up the rest using the facts will be more than enough to pass.

I think the natural inclination for people in our shoes is to seriously overestimate where others are. It's not like the thousands of others have the rules memorized at this point and we're the ones left behind. At the very least, we're all in the same spot. And far more likely, we are way ahead of the bottom quarter who 1) can't write, 2) didn't take bar prep, 3) don't speak English (e.g. lots of LLMs in my state with minimal English skills), 4) got sick, or 5) are lazy/depressed. If you don't feel like you're where you should be, you're in great shape -- because most people who should be panicking don't even know enough to panic.

I WANT TO BELIEVE

Also Neff is my new favorite poster

[Neff]

Yes. fuck this test.

Also, can anyone give me a quick tl/dr on what mr marino is saying here? What trick?

http://abovethelaw.com/2015/02/ask-the- ... -building/


(I realize that this is the law school equivalent of horrible clickbait, but I still want to know).

He seems to be saying he knows how to teach people how to make up law (make up a rule, state it, then bullshit after... or something like that), whereas most Bar prep companies try to force students to memorize all of the law (an impossible task). I get the impression that he was hawking some snake oil secret methodology of bullshitting your way to success.

yes exactly. but does his snake oil translate to a bunch of points? So say you forget the rule....is this a confidence trick? Do we just make something up and CRAC as if our "R" was correct? If so, thats awesome!

Well, if you forget the rule, your only option is to make one up and keep on keepin' on. Not sure what the author means by suggesting he can teach someone how to bullshit better than normal. Maybe some people are afraid to make up a rule and start spouting off about "the spirit of the law" and "principles of equity/fairness," but that's not making up a rule and is obviously a bad idea. I don't see how someone can teach you how to make up a rule better than you could do on your own.

I don't think he's off at all. I still refuse to believe that passing the bar in the vast majority of states requires anything close to memorizing even half the rules Barbri dumps on you. Think about it. A prompt contains a bunch of facts and a few questions about those facts. Each fact is relevant in some way to the answer. If you don't know the rules, you make them up so that they make use of each of the facts in a way that is intuitive and plausible. Granted, if you didn't know ANY of the law in that area, your "creation" might not be very convincing. But let's say you remember two of the five elements of the test. Applying those two elements and making up the rest using the facts will be more than enough to pass.

I think the natural inclination for people in our shoes is to seriously overestimate where others are. It's not like the thousands of others have the rules memorized at this point and we're the ones left behind. At the very least, we're all in the same spot. And far more likely, we are way ahead of the bottom quarter who 1) can't write, 2) didn't take bar prep, 3) don't speak English (e.g. lots of LLMs in my state with minimal English skills), 4) got sick, or 5) are lazy/depressed. If you don't feel like you're where you should be, you're in great shape -- because most people who should be panicking don't even know enough to panic.

I WANT TO BELIEVE

Also Neff is my new favorite poster

Amen, brother. We shall put our faith in the holy name of EMANUEL (Hebrew עִמָּנוּאֵל, "God is with us"), and he shall deliver us from Satan/Barbri.

[Outis Onoma]

I refuse to be optimistic until I find out on November 5/6 whether or not I passed.

You have to wait until November? I find out September 11.

I wonder if they put any thought into that date.

[jamescastle]

I refuse to be optimistic until I find out on November 5/6 whether or not I passed.

You have to wait until November? I find out September 11.

I wonder if they put any thought into that date.

Yep. Texas btw. I think there's a few of us from Texas here.

[kyle010723]

I refuse to be optimistic until I find out on November 5/6 whether or not I passed.

You have to wait until November? I find out September 11.

I wonder if they put any thought into that date.

First two weeks of October for us.

[Tiago Splitter]

P sure CA is end of November. What an awful wait. I can't even go through a 50 question mixed set without stopping to check some of my answers.

[Learned Throw Hands]

58% on Mixed Set 2. My scores have continued to decline the last two weeks. I fucking hate this exam.

[Good Guy Gaud]

I'm at a point where I really question if I'm going to learn anything over the next 1.5 weeks or whether I'm just screwed.

[kyle010723]

I'm at a point where I really question if I'm going to learn anything over the next 1.5 weeks or whether I'm just screwed.

I think we're just all burnt out at this point. Maybe take the weekend off or at least reduced workload, and ready to make one final push next week?

[Good Guy Gaud]

I'm at a point where I really question if I'm going to learn anything over the next 1.5 weeks or whether I'm just screwed.

I think we're just all burnt out at this point. Maybe take the weekend off or at least reduced workload, and ready to make one final push next week?

BUT THEN WE WILL MISS OUT ON TIME

This is just the dilemma of all dilemmas. Am I really burnt out or can I take it for two more weeks?

[kyle010723]

BUT THEN WE WILL MISS OUT ON TIME

This is just the dilemma of all dilemmas. Am I really burnt out or can I take it for two more weeks?

I hear you there, but if you cannot put any more information into your head, then it's not productive either

[Tiago Splitter]

Gaud just do like me and stick with slow and steady. 3-4 hours a day.

[Good Guy Gaud]

Gaud just do like me and stick with slow and steady. 3-4 hours a day.

That's what today was like. Did an MPT then took a nap. Then reviewed a full MBE I did earlier in the week and some lecture notes.

Pretty nice but still just a feeling of "bleh" ya know?