Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam Forum

[mizunoami]

A police officer generally must have reasonable suspicion of crime beyond the reason for the traffic stop to search the interior of a car. He must have reasonable suspicion to conduct a pat down of someone in that car (e.g., reasonable suspicion that the person is armed and dangerous). During any valid traffic stop, the officer can order the driver and passengers out of the car.

Are you sure about the bolded? It was my understanding that traffic stops are analogous to terry stops, and the officer can conduct a pat down even WITHOUT reasonable suspicion that you're armed and dangerous. In other words, any valid stop for a traffic violation, and the officer can pat you down for weapons and search the vehicle for his protection. I could be wrong on this, but that's what my outline seems to say.

Arizona v. Johnson (US 2009): "Accordingly, we hold that, in a traffic-stop setting, the first Terry condition--a lawful investigatory stop--is met whenever it is lawful for police to detain an automobile and its occupants pending inquiry into a vehicular violation. The police need not have, in addition, cause to believe any occupant of the vehicle is involved in criminal activity. To justify a patdown of the driver or a passenger during a traffic stop, however, just as in the case of a pedestrian reasonably suspected of criminal activity, the police must harbor reasonable suspicion that the person subjected to the frisk is armed and dangerous."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... ol=07-1122

Thanks!

I thought they could only search where evidence of the crime might be found. So if you are pulled over for speeding, they can search within your wingspan for weapons for safety purposes, if you are still in the car. But they cannot take you out, then search the car, because they wouldn't be able to find evidence of speeding within the car.

[FlanAl]

So on a family law practice essay the model answer says that separation agreements will be enforced unless they are unconscionable. The model answer said that it may have been fraud but that it has to be unconscionable to not be enforced. The outline says they can not enforce if its either unconscionable or based on fraud. Anyone have any idea as to whether the outline or the model answer is right?

[mmmnnn]

I thought they could only search where evidence of the crime might be found.

That's true for a Gant search incident to arrest, but also if the officer has reasonable suspicion to believe the driver/passenger is armed and dangerous, they could search the car for weapons.

So if you are pulled over for speeding, they can search within your wingspan for weapons for safety purposes, if you are still in the car.

They cannot do this unless they have reasonable suspicion that the driver is armed and dangerous.

But they cannot take you out, then search the car, because they wouldn't be able to find evidence of speeding within the car.

That's true, unless they had reasonable suspicion that you were armed and dangerous and/or could reach into the car for a weapon.

[mizunoami]

I thought they could only search where evidence of the crime might be found.

That's true for a Gant search incident to arrest, but also if the officer has reasonable suspicion to believe the driver/passenger is armed and dangerous, they could search the car for weapons.

So if you are pulled over for speeding, they can search within your wingspan for weapons for safety purposes, if you are still in the car.

They cannot do this unless they have reasonable suspicion that the driver is armed and dangerous.

But they cannot take you out, then search the car, because they wouldn't be able to find evidence of speeding within the car.

That's true, unless they had reasonable suspicion that you were armed and dangerous and/or could reach into the car for a weapon.

Ehh, I haven't done my Crim Pro review yet so I'll take your word for it.

[Kiwi917]

So this might be old news to California people but these Stanford attack outlines/rule statements are beautiful: https://www.law.stanford.edu/organizati ... m-outlines

Obviously a lot of it is California specific, but they're kind of helpful guidance for making my own condensed outlines.

They're helpful - just keep in mind that they were uploaded in 2011 and the original files appear to be several years older (the author under the file properties is someone who passed the bar in 2006 - unclear if someone updated the original material in 2011). For example, the CrimPro outline has the old Belton rule for vehicle searches incident to arrest, not the more restrictive Gant rule from 2009.

[Bobo1]

Anyone know of any other source of Florida MC practice questions? The Themis questions suck and are repeated over and over in the different sessions. I think I've seen some of the questions 5 times in 5 sets. Really pissing me off. I've sent a complaint to Themis with the question numbers listed but no response so far. I need better questions to practice with...

[bport hopeful]

NYMC is such a crapshoot.

And Themis just gave me identical questions, back to back.

These are the things that keep me up at night.

[northwood]

NYMC is such a crapshoot.

And Themis just gave me identical questions, back to back.

These are the things that keep me up at night.

im not putting too much effort into NYMC as for me I only end up confusing myself on the MBE, which is graded more. i figue studying for the essays will help, and if i see an answer that looks like the MBE response, ill cross it out... and eeeny meeny, miney moe my way through it.

[bport hopeful]

NYMC is such a crapshoot.

And Themis just gave me identical questions, back to back.

These are the things that keep me up at night.

im not putting too much effort into NYMC as for me I only end up confusing myself on the MBE, which is graded more. i figue studying for the essays will help, and if i see an answer that looks like the MBE response, ill cross it out... and eeeny meeny, miney moe my way through it.

This might not be a bad idea, because its a total crapshoot. Im talking 50% crapshoot.

[Tanicius]

A state statute provides that only citizens of the United States may be employed by that state. In an action brought in a federal court, a resident alien who was prevented from obtaining state employment as a garbage collector solely because of his alien status challenged the statute's constitutionality as applied to his circumstances.

Which of the following statements concerning the burden of persuasion applicable to this suit is correct?
A. The alien must demonstrate that there is no rational relationship between the citizenship requirement and any legitimate state interest.
B. The alien must demonstrate that the citizenship requirement is not necessary to advance an important state interest.
C. The state must demonstrate that there is a rational relationship between the citizenship requirement and a legitimate state interest.
D. The state must demonstrate that the citizenship requirement is necessary to advance an important state interest.

Correct: Answer choice D is correct. This question involves equal protection. When considering a fundamental right such as alienage, any state action will be held to strict scrutiny, and the government has the burden of proving that it has a compelling state interest, that the law is narrowly tailored to further the interest, and there are no less restrictive means to achieve the interest. Laws prohibiting aliens from acquiring civil service jobs have generally been struck down. Of the four answer choices presented, answer choice D best states the standard for strict scrutiny, even though it uses the word "important" rather than "compelling" when describing the state's interest.

Okay, let's take this to its logical conclusion:

Which law prohibits the unauthorized seizure of evidence in United States courts? The British Constitution or the American Magna Carta?

Answer choice B, the American Magna Carta, is correct, because even though it misstates the name of the law, it at least gets the country correct.

[northwood]

NYMC is such a crapshoot.

And Themis just gave me identical questions, back to back.

These are the things that keep me up at night.

im not putting too much effort into NYMC as for me I only end up confusing myself on the MBE, which is graded more. i figue studying for the essays will help, and if i see an answer that looks like the MBE response, ill cross it out... and eeeny meeny, miney moe my way through it.

This might not be a bad idea, because its a total crapshoot. Im talking 50% crapshoot.

yea I know.. I tried to make flash cards and the lke but I end up just confusing myself... so if I can narrow it down a few, ill be better off ( I mean id rather get a 25/50 and end up with a 133 raw than get a 40/50 and end up with a 101 raw

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

It's a super duper stressful study day. So difficult to stay focused. Feels like panic is setting in and I'm all over the place. Too many subjects, not enough memorization, a big mess, notes everywhere... bouncing back and forth between big outlines, little outlines, issue lists, and a bagillion study-aid books and model answers... and now that I've been studying for the essays, I feel like I'm going to lose ground on the MBEs, which adds more stress. I fear it will be like this each day till the exam. I don't like this feeling and I feel like I don't know anything or at least not enough. One of those days where you think the several hundred bucks you're about to spend on the hotel would be better spent on the Feb 2015 Bar Exam fee lol.

[dtl]

It's a super duper stressful study day. So difficult to stay focused. Feels like panic is setting in and I'm all over the place. Too many subjects, not enough memorization, a big mess, notes everywhere... bouncing back and forth between big outlines, little outlines, issue lists, and a bagillion study-aid books and model answers... and now that I've been studying for the essays, I feel like I'm going to lose ground on the MBEs, which adds more stress. I fear it will be like this each day till the exam. I don't like this feeling and I feel like I don't know anything. One of those days where you think the several hundred bucks you're about to spend on the hotel would be better spent on the Feb 2015 Bar Exam fee lol.

Take solace in the fact that we all feel like this. Or at least many of us.

I have never in my life had a panic attack, but last night when I was desperately trying to cram rote law into my brain, I was pretty close. I studied too generally, and I know generally what to say, but I do not have the verbage pr the precise steps memorized.

[klbisho4]

Anyone know of any other source of Florida MC practice questions? The Themis questions suck and are repeated over and over in the different sessions. I think I've seen some of the questions 5 times in 5 sets. Really pissing me off. I've sent a complaint to Themis with the question numbers listed but no response so far. I need better questions to practice with...

I concur... Themis' questions are not only repetitive, but they are weak. I've been using the BarBri FL MC questions that I got from my buddy who's using BarBri.

[numbertwo88]

So on a family law practice essay the model answer says that separation agreements will be enforced unless they are unconscionable. The model answer said that it may have been fraud but that it has to be unconscionable to not be enforced. The outline says they can not enforce if its either unconscionable or based on fraud. Anyone have any idea as to whether the outline or the model answer is right?

I feel like the outline would be right over the model answer

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

It's a super duper stressful study day. So difficult to stay focused. Feels like panic is setting in and I'm all over the place. Too many subjects, not enough memorization, a big mess, notes everywhere... bouncing back and forth between big outlines, little outlines, issue lists, and a bagillion study-aid books and model answers... and now that I've been studying for the essays, I feel like I'm going to lose ground on the MBEs, which adds more stress. I fear it will be like this each day till the exam. I don't like this feeling and I feel like I don't know anything. One of those days where you think the several hundred bucks you're about to spend on the hotel would be better spent on the Feb 2015 Bar Exam fee lol.

Take solace in the fact that we all feel like this. Or at least many of us.

I have never in my life had a panic attack, but last night when I was desperately trying to cram rote law into my brain, I was pretty close. I studied too generally, and I know generally what to say, but I do not have the verbage pr the precise steps memorized.

Thanks DTL. I kind of feel the same way. If it were an oral exam, I feel like I could talk my way through it, because I get the general idea of things, but some of the exact language of the rules are so hard to memorize en mass. Trying to at least get the "buzz words" down. But in light of everything that's going on in the world right now, I can't complain too much. It's an important exam, but it's still... it's just an exam. Back to the books! Onwards... Oy.

[numbertwo88]

It's a super duper stressful study day. So difficult to stay focused. Feels like panic is setting in and I'm all over the place. Too many subjects, not enough memorization, a big mess, notes everywhere... bouncing back and forth between big outlines, little outlines, issue lists, and a bagillion study-aid books and model answers... and now that I've been studying for the essays, I feel like I'm going to lose ground on the MBEs, which adds more stress. I fear it will be like this each day till the exam. I don't like this feeling and I feel like I don't know anything or at least not enough. One of those days where you think the several hundred bucks you're about to spend on the hotel would be better spent on the Feb 2015 Bar Exam fee lol.

I couldn't focus much today either so I just took it off after making my condensed contracts attack outline (which took so much longer than I thought it would but I'm happy it's just 2 pages now) & 2 contracts practice essays. I try to keep my weekends lighter.

I'm feeling the same way about the MBEs but if I don't get ALL essay topics down, via mini-essay attack outlines, by Wednesday I believe I am fucked. I also feel like I don't know enough either. Hopefully come exam day, we'll all know just enough to pass for this alleged "minimum competency" test.

& I've cried so much studying for the bar exam it has made me question my sanity for wanting to become an attorney. I don't know why it's made me overly emotional and easily annoyed.

[bport hopeful]

NYMC is such a crapshoot.

And Themis just gave me identical questions, back to back.

These are the things that keep me up at night.

+NY Evidence. So goddamned frustrating

[SilverE2]

My MBE scores are still all over the place. I'll get 75% on a 50 question mixed set one day, and then get 52% on a mixed set the next day. Wut. I tell myself that some sets must be harder than others...but I know that it's probably my fault.

[Tanicius]

My MBE scores are still all over the place. I'll get 75% on a 50 question mixed set one day, and then get 52% on a mixed set the next day. Wut. I tell myself that some sets must be harder than others...but I know that it's probably my fault.

Seriously though, some sets are harder for different people than others. And that will happen on the real thing too. You'll go 20 questions straight in one quarter of the test without getting a single question wrong, and then in another quarter you'll get 8 questions wrong in a row.

[bport hopeful]

My MBE scores are still all over the place. I'll get 75% on a 50 question mixed set one day, and then get 52% on a mixed set the next day. Wut. I tell myself that some sets must be harder than others...but I know that it's probably my fault.

Seriously though, some sets are harder for different people than others. And that will happen on the real thing too. You'll go 20 questions straight in one quarter of the test without getting a single question wrong, and then in another quarter you'll get 8 questions wrong in a row.

Ive noticed patterns where different practice sets test certain areas more heavier than others. So its prolly just the occasional subject that you don't know as well. That being said, my scores have been pretty similar.

[094320]

..

[lawyerwannabe]

How bad can your essays be? I mean what does it take to get like a 40 or 45 scaled?

Totally freaked out because there is no way I can memorize all these different subjects.

[SilverE2]

Went through and reviewed every MBE PQ I got wrong...and I do mean every...including all the subject-organized ones. Then shot up from avg 70% right to 85% today. It's worth doing.

How long did this take you? I've been spending a few hours a day doing MBE questions, then the rest of the day doing state specific stuff. Might do this tomorrow instead of doing MBE questions. Also, did you try to re-answer them? Or just straight up review them?

[mizunoami]

Went through and reviewed every MBE PQ I got wrong...and I do mean every...including all the subject-organized ones. Then shot up from avg 70% right to 85% today. It's worth doing.

How long did this take you? I've been spending a few hours a day doing MBE questions, then the rest of the day doing state specific stuff. Might do this tomorrow instead of doing MBE questions. Also, did you try to re-answer them? Or just straight up review them?

It takes awhile. I've been doing it subject by subject also. I usually read the question, try to answer it, then look at what answers are provided. I would say it probably takes a few hours per subject? I guess it depends on how many PQs you've answered, and how many you've gotten wrong.