Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2016 Forum

[PotLuck]

So I have done 6 Mixed sets and have yet to get above a 60%. I have been using note cards and writing down the rule for each answer I get wrong but my scores are going down (dramatically - the last two were 44% and 48%, my highest was 58%). I just can't seem to improve my MBE score no matter what I do. I'm not sure where to go at this point. I've tried hand writing my notes into a basic master outline, making notecards, studying the FRO, and nothing is working. I've even tried pinpointing areas I'm weakest in.

Any advice or am i just screwed at this point?

[Nebby]

So I have done 6 Mixed sets and have yet to get above a 60%. I have been using note cards and writing down the rule for each answer I get wrong but my scores are going down (dramatically - the last two were 44% and 48%, my highest was 58%). I just can't seem to improve my MBE score no matter what I do. I'm not sure where to go at this point. I've tried hand writing my notes into a basic master outline, making notecards, studying the FRO, and nothing is working. I've even tried pinpointing areas I'm weakest in.

Any advice or am i just screwed at this point?

Keep chugging and keep reading your cards before each new Mixed set

[xfer999]

So I have done 6 Mixed sets and have yet to get above a 60%. I have been using note cards and writing down the rule for each answer I get wrong but my scores are going down (dramatically - the last two were 44% and 48%, my highest was 58%). I just can't seem to improve my MBE score no matter what I do. I'm not sure where to go at this point. I've tried hand writing my notes into a basic master outline, making notecards, studying the FRO, and nothing is working. I've even tried pinpointing areas I'm weakest in.

Any advice or am i just screwed at this point?

This is kind of weird, but I got this tip from the MBE analysis lectures and, at least for me, it seems to be helping. When I read the problem, I try to to figure out the answer BEFORE looking at the answer choices so I don't get misled by what he calls "the distractors." If my answer isn't there, then I go back and re-read the question and figure out what I missed.

For me, the benefits are: (1) I'm working through problems more slowly and thoughtfully instead of racing through; (2) it helps me identify gaps in my knowledge (ex: when I have seriously no clue what the answer should be); (3) it's good issue-spotting practice ("Oh shit, I forgot about statute of frauds!" - literally happened last night when I saw that answer choice); (4) it's validating to see my answer among the choices and gives me more confidence about sticking with my first choice rather than second-guessing and changing to the wrong answer; (5) I'm getting into the mind of the bar examiners by anticipating what they want in advance.

If you're all out of ideas, maybe try doing a mixed PQ set this way and see if it helps?

[Fivedham]

So I have done 6 Mixed sets and have yet to get above a 60%. I have been using note cards and writing down the rule for each answer I get wrong but my scores are going down (dramatically - the last two were 44% and 48%, my highest was 58%). I just can't seem to improve my MBE score no matter what I do. I'm not sure where to go at this point. I've tried hand writing my notes into a basic master outline, making notecards, studying the FRO, and nothing is working. I've even tried pinpointing areas I'm weakest in.

Any advice or am i just screwed at this point?

Go to the course progress page, hit MBE PQs, and look at what subtopics you stink at the most. Read all the explanations in a single subtopic area until you start seeing common threads. It'll take a day or two, but you'll see progress. I didn't understand ANYTHING about mortgages until I did that, and now I'm doing way better.

Also I'd call your state director, it's getting to crunch time so they can probably help better than all of us, who by definition haven't passed yet.

[WhiskeynCoke]

So I have done 6 Mixed sets and have yet to get above a 60%. I have been using note cards and writing down the rule for each answer I get wrong but my scores are going down (dramatically - the last two were 44% and 48%, my highest was 58%). I just can't seem to improve my MBE score no matter what I do. I'm not sure where to go at this point. I've tried hand writing my notes into a basic master outline, making notecards, studying the FRO, and nothing is working. I've even tried pinpointing areas I'm weakest in.

Any advice or am i just screwed at this point?

You need to figure out WHY you missed each question. When I review my MBE sets, I divide my wrong answers into three categories: (1) Didn't know the law; (2) Misapplied the law/tricked by the question; or (3) Stupid mistakes (misread, etc.).

This is crucial because it will help you diagnose your overall problem. If 80% of your wrong answers were because you just didn't know the particular law being tested, you need to study the black letter law harder. If you are misapplying the law or are getting tricked, you need to fix your strategy and approach. If you are making stupid errors you need to focus on being more careful.

If your problem is (2) but you focus on just studying the BLL, you won't get any better. Also make sure to review the Qs you got right but found difficult. Good luck, you can do this!

[xfer999]

So I have done 6 Mixed sets and have yet to get above a 60%. I have been using note cards and writing down the rule for each answer I get wrong but my scores are going down (dramatically - the last two were 44% and 48%, my highest was 58%). I just can't seem to improve my MBE score no matter what I do. I'm not sure where to go at this point. I've tried hand writing my notes into a basic master outline, making notecards, studying the FRO, and nothing is working. I've even tried pinpointing areas I'm weakest in.

Any advice or am i just screwed at this point?

You need to figure out WHY you missed each question. When I review my MBE sets, I divide my wrong answers into three categories: (1) Didn't know the law; (2) Misapplied the law/tricked by the question; or (3) Stupid mistakes (misread, etc.).

This is crucial because it will help you diagnose your overall problem. If 80% of your wrong answers were because you just didn't know the particular law being tested, you need to study the black letter law harder. If you are misapplying the law or are getting tricked, you need to fix your strategy and approach. If you are making stupid errors you need to focus on being more careful.

If your problem is (2) but you focus on just studying the BLL, you won't get any better. Also make sure to review the Qs you got right but found difficult. Good luck, you can do this!

Yeah, I endorse this. I guess my point was - maybe the problem isn't what you're doing outside the exam but what you're doing inside the exam, you know? Worth investigating your test-taking technique, at least. And yeah, you can do this. Think of how awesome you're going to feel in two weeks after it's all over.

[mu13ski]

Crim Law Practice Essay question...

[+] Spoiler

How is this chick only guilty of involuntary manslaughter? When Carol saw John through the door’s glass panel, Carol grabbed a knife from the kitchen counter. When John broke the glass panel and put his hand through to reach the doorknob, Carol screamed “I’ll take matters into my own hands.” Carol then stabbed herself in the stomach and neck, and fell to the floor bleeding profusely.

Carol recovered from the incident but went into labor three months before her due date. Carol’s child was plagued with a number of health problems resulting from his premature birth. The child died of pneumonia the day before his first birthday, never having left the hospital.

The Themis model answer is saying involuntary manslaughter saying she only acted with conscious disregard to a substantial and unjustifiable risk. To me it seems more like Depraved heart murder. "killing committed with reckless indifference to an unjustifiable risk of human life." or intent to inflict serious bodily harm.

[hirkaismyname]

Do you just treat an administrative warrant just like a normal, police warrant?

There's a small section on this in the full outline, I can't really remember what differences there might be and I've only had one question on it (Fireman searching house for cause of arson). I think it's just that admin warrants can only look for certain things (like cause of a fire) but if they stumble on other stuff in plain view or whatever that can be turned over to police and D is screwed as always.

IDK maybe that's not right. If there is a question on the real bar about admin warrants I'm just going to stop taking the test right there and ragequit just purely based on principal. I suggest you do the same.

That's the only question I've seen as well. I thought it was even more relaxed for them for some reason, but then that question said he exceeded the scope of the warrant, which was to search the house for proof of the cause of the fire. Didn't say "only the burned portion" (found evidence in the unburned upstairs that the homeowner did it).

Bailing seems fair too.

I don't really remember the specifics of the question other than "Fireman walking in burned house" but I got it right, I think it's because he was supposed to find evidence of the cause of the fire itself so sifting through the burnt stuff below was ok. But, he couldn't go upstairs because that part wasn't burnt.

Basically, he could find "the source" of the fire in so far as the physical source of the fire. But, he couldn't find "the source" of the fire meaning, like, evidence of who the arsonist was.

Not sure if that makes any sense and I could be wrong. Again, if it comes up I quit and I expect everyone ITT to do the same.

Yeah, it was "out of scope" because he was supposed to find evidence that "caused the fire", and not evidence that exculpated the arson for insurance fraud (missing cut-out paintings/valuable/safe empty etc).

[rambleon65]

So I have done 6 Mixed sets and have yet to get above a 60%. I have been using note cards and writing down the rule for each answer I get wrong but my scores are going down (dramatically - the last two were 44% and 48%, my highest was 58%). I just can't seem to improve my MBE score no matter what I do. I'm not sure where to go at this point. I've tried hand writing my notes into a basic master outline, making notecards, studying the FRO, and nothing is working. I've even tried pinpointing areas I'm weakest in.

Any advice or am i just screwed at this point?

You need to figure out WHY you missed each question. When I review my MBE sets, I divide my wrong answers into three categories: (1) Didn't know the law; (2) Misapplied the law/tricked by the question; or (3) Stupid mistakes (misread, etc.).

This is crucial because it will help you diagnose your overall problem. If 80% of your wrong answers were because you just didn't know the particular law being tested, you need to study the black letter law harder. If you are misapplying the law or are getting tricked, you need to fix your strategy and approach. If you are making stupid errors you need to focus on being more careful.

If your problem is (2) but you focus on just studying the BLL, you won't get any better. Also make sure to review the Qs you got right but found difficult. Good luck, you can do this!

Yeah, I endorse this. I guess my point was - maybe the problem isn't what you're doing outside the exam but what you're doing inside the exam, you know? Worth investigating your test-taking technique, at least. And yeah, you can do this. Think of how awesome you're going to feel in two weeks after it's all over.

One thing to note is as noted by Themis in their intro outline, the MBE PQs are adjusted and get geared towards your weakest areas. So to a certain degree, it makes sense that the MBE PQs are trickier than, say, the milestone or midterm exam, because they're geared towards your weakest areas. My midterm was WAY higher than my MBE PQs.

[bsktbll28082]

One thing to note is as noted by Themis in their intro outline, the MBE PQs are adjusted and get geared towards your weakest areas. So to a certain degree, it makes sense that the MBE PQs are trickier than, say, the milestone or midterm exam, because they're geared towards your weakest areas. My midterm was WAY higher than my MBE PQs.

Is this the mixed set questions? Or the subject specific?

[rambleon65]

One thing to note is as noted by Themis in their intro outline, the MBE PQs are adjusted and get geared towards your weakest areas. So to a certain degree, it makes sense that the MBE PQs are trickier than, say, the milestone or midterm exam, because they're geared towards your weakest areas. My midterm was WAY higher than my MBE PQs.

Is this the mixed set questions? Or the subject specific?

Pretty sure it's all MBE PQs. Another reason you can tell that they aren't set questions is that if you refresh (e.g. your internet connection crapped out or w/e), you get a different question for the same question #.

[ndp1234]

So I have done 6 Mixed sets and have yet to get above a 60%. I have been using note cards and writing down the rule for each answer I get wrong but my scores are going down (dramatically - the last two were 44% and 48%, my highest was 58%). I just can't seem to improve my MBE score no matter what I do. I'm not sure where to go at this point. I've tried hand writing my notes into a basic master outline, making notecards, studying the FRO, and nothing is working. I've even tried pinpointing areas I'm weakest in.

Any advice or am i just screwed at this point?

This technique has been helping me a lot. I go through the FRO outlines or Critical Pass flashcards (if you have them) and only look at the section headers. Then I fill in the elements and relevant rules by writing it out (not typing, actually handwriting). Then go and look at the description found in the FRO, your outlines and/or flashcards to figure out what you miss and then handwrite them in. You can do these drills like 2x a day. It really helps me because it forces me to recall rather than just mindlessly re-typing or reading. It's better than flashcards IMO because it forces you to think about big picture that you can then apply to these MBE questions. My MBE scores jumped dramatically after I started doing this.

[PotLuck]

Thanks for all the advice. I've gone through and categorized my missed questions and it looks like most of it is related to not knowing the law well enough. I'm going to try the method of writing down the law for each category each day. Hopefully, I'll see some improvement soon.

[Chardee_MacDennis]

Themis gonna Them:

[+] Spoiler

On March 1, a landowner and a builder orally agreed that the builder would erect a boathouse on the landowner's lot and dig a channel from the boathouse, across a neighbor's lot, to a lake. The neighbor had already orally agreed with the landowner to permit the digging of the channel across the neighbor's lot. The builder agreed to begin work on the boathouse on March 15, and to complete all the work before June 1. The total price of $10,000 was to be paid by the landowner in three installments: $2,500 on March 15; $2,500 when the boathouse was completed; $5,000 when the builder finished the digging of the channel. Assume that the landowner tendered the $2,500 on March 15, and that the builder refused to accept it or to perform. In an action by the landowner against the builder for breach of contract, which of the following can the builder successfully use as a defense?

Answers:

The landowner-builder agreement permitting the digging of the channel across the neighbor's lot was not in writing.
The landowner-builder agreement was not in writing.
You Selected: The landowner needs an easement to conduct work on the neighbor's property.
Correct Answer: The neighbor refused to permit access to the builder.
Rationale:

Answer choice D is correct. The doctrine of frustration of purpose applies when unexpected events arise to make a contract impossible to be performed, entitling the frustrated party to rescind the contract without paying damages. If the neighbor refuses to grant access, the builder's work is unexpectedly frustrated, creating an impossibility of his performance. Answer choice A is incorrect because it assumes that the digging of the channel requires a writing, which it does not here, because the neighbor orally agreed to the construction. Answer choice B is incorrect because it incorrectly assumes that an interest in property has been conveyed, requiring the Statute of Frauds to be invoked. Answer choice C is incorrect because the neighbor has already agreed to the construction.

So now I have to GUESS that the neighbor is going to refuse to grant access? But Answer C says he's already agreed. Are you fucking serious Themis?

[Fivedham]

Themis gonna Them:

[+] Spoiler

On March 1, a landowner and a builder orally agreed that the builder would erect a boathouse on the landowner's lot and dig a channel from the boathouse, across a neighbor's lot, to a lake. The neighbor had already orally agreed with the landowner to permit the digging of the channel across the neighbor's lot. The builder agreed to begin work on the boathouse on March 15, and to complete all the work before June 1. The total price of $10,000 was to be paid by the landowner in three installments: $2,500 on March 15; $2,500 when the boathouse was completed; $5,000 when the builder finished the digging of the channel. Assume that the landowner tendered the $2,500 on March 15, and that the builder refused to accept it or to perform. In an action by the landowner against the builder for breach of contract, which of the following can the builder successfully use as a defense?

Answers:

The landowner-builder agreement permitting the digging of the channel across the neighbor's lot was not in writing.
The landowner-builder agreement was not in writing.
You Selected: The landowner needs an easement to conduct work on the neighbor's property.
Correct Answer: The neighbor refused to permit access to the builder.
Rationale:

Answer choice D is correct. The doctrine of frustration of purpose applies when unexpected events arise to make a contract impossible to be performed, entitling the frustrated party to rescind the contract without paying damages. If the neighbor refuses to grant access, the builder's work is unexpectedly frustrated, creating an impossibility of his performance. Answer choice A is incorrect because it assumes that the digging of the channel requires a writing, which it does not here, because the neighbor orally agreed to the construction. Answer choice B is incorrect because it incorrectly assumes that an interest in property has been conveyed, requiring the Statute of Frauds to be invoked. Answer choice C is incorrect because the neighbor has already agreed to the construction.

So now I have to GUESS that the neighbor is going to refuse to grant access? But Answer C says he's already agreed. Are you fucking serious Themis?

I raged against that one too. It's pretty clear that they took a fact pattern designed for another question, modified it, and forgot to add that one critical fact that would make the answer what the say it is. FWIW, I've seen that fact pattern in an AdaptiBar question and got it right because they didn't modify it at all. Themis definitely screwed that one up.

[unidentifiable]

Got hella themed by a particularly brutal crim pro section in a 100 PQ set.

Went to the big outline to massage out some weaknesses.

There are so many little crim pro bullshit rules that don't even make sense. My biggest weakness is in the pre-trial to post-trial phases, and the shit is bananas.

[xdeuceswild81xx]

Morale boost:

I know two people who have begun studying this week. They said two weeks would be plenty of time to learn this material. In addition, they thought that "PT" meant "practice test" and not "performance test". Before they found out, they were just going to skip it because they thought it was like the 10 MBE questions that dont' count/are on their for future purposes. (For non PA residents, it's like thinking the MPT was for practice)


We all gonna make it fam, hang in there!

[Nebby]

Got hella themed by a particularly brutal crim pro section in a 100 PQ set.

Went to the big outline to massage out some weaknesses.

There are so many little crim pro bullshit rules that don't even make sense. My biggest weakness is in the pre-trial to post-trial phases, and the shit is bananas.

It took me SO long to finally start to make sense of crim pro. Particularly 4th and 6th amendment stuff

[Nebby]

Morale boost:

I know two people who have begun studying this week. They said two weeks would be plenty of time to learn this material. In addition, they thought that "PT" meant "practice test" and not "performance test". Before they found out, they were just going to skip it because they thought it was like the 10 MBE questions that dont' count/are on their for future purposes. (For non PA residents, it's like thinking the MPT was for practice)


We all gonna make it fam, hang in there!

I just had a small panic attack reading this

[BigZuck]

Got hella themed by a particularly brutal crim pro section in a 100 PQ set.

Went to the big outline to massage out some weaknesses.

There are so many little crim pro bullshit rules that don't even make sense. My biggest weakness is in the pre-trial to post-trial phases, and the shit is bananas.

It took me SO long to finally start to make sense of crim pro. Particularly 4th and 6th amendment stuff

The reason why I know you're lying is because crim pro doesn't make sense. Period.

Nice try though maybe next time

[bobbypin]

Crim Law Practice Essay question...

[+] Spoiler

How is this chick only guilty of involuntary manslaughter? When Carol saw John through the door’s glass panel, Carol grabbed a knife from the kitchen counter. When John broke the glass panel and put his hand through to reach the doorknob, Carol screamed “I’ll take matters into my own hands.” Carol then stabbed herself in the stomach and neck, and fell to the floor bleeding profusely.

Carol recovered from the incident but went into labor three months before her due date. Carol’s child was plagued with a number of health problems resulting from his premature birth. The child died of pneumonia the day before his first birthday, never having left the hospital.

The Themis model answer is saying involuntary manslaughter saying she only acted with conscious disregard to a substantial and unjustifiable risk. To me it seems more like Depraved heart murder. "killing committed with reckless indifference to an unjustifiable risk of human life." or intent to inflict serious bodily harm.

Seems like an over reach to even consider it involuntary manslaughter considering at common law, a fetus is not considered a living human until birth.

[1down1togo]

Got hella themed by a particularly brutal crim pro section in a 100 PQ set.

Went to the big outline to massage out some weaknesses.

There are so many little crim pro bullshit rules that don't even make sense. My biggest weakness is in the pre-trial to post-trial phases, and the shit is bananas.

It took me SO long to finally start to make sense of crim pro. Particularly 4th and 6th amendment stuff

The reason why I know you're lying is because crim pro doesn't make sense. Period.

Nice try though maybe next time

Crim pro really doesn't make sense, because, its just whatever the supreme court says it is. I mean, there's a baseline of sense-making, but when you get in to the nitty gritty exceptions- its just whatever teh supreme court ruled in a particular case. On the plus side, crim pro and crim law together make up one category. So all together, crim pro is tied for being the smallest category. So if you're gonna be bad at something, crim pro is probably the best thing to be bad at

[ChocolateTruffle]

Morale boost:

I know two people who have begun studying this week. They said two weeks would be plenty of time to learn this material. In addition, they thought that "PT" meant "practice test" and not "performance test". Before they found out, they were just going to skip it because they thought it was like the 10 MBE questions that dont' count/are on their for future purposes. (For non PA residents, it's like thinking the MPT was for practice)


We all gonna make it fam, hang in there!

Wow. But I'll be pissed if they somehow miraculously pass and I fail!

[unidentifiable]

Got hella themed by a particularly brutal crim pro section in a 100 PQ set.

Went to the big outline to massage out some weaknesses.

There are so many little crim pro bullshit rules that don't even make sense. My biggest weakness is in the pre-trial to post-trial phases, and the shit is bananas.

It took me SO long to finally start to make sense of crim pro. Particularly 4th and 6th amendment stuff

The reason why I know you're lying is because crim pro doesn't make sense. Period.

Nice try though maybe next time

Crim pro really doesn't make sense, because, its just whatever the supreme court says it is. I mean, there's a baseline of sense-making, but when you get in to the nitty gritty exceptions- its just whatever teh supreme court ruled in a particular case. On the plus side, crim pro and crim law together make up one category. So all together, crim pro is tied for being the smallest category. So if you're gonna be bad at something, crim pro is probably the best thing to be bad at

This made me feel much better.

[unidentifiable]

That graded wills essay.....