Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam Forum

[jigglypuffdreams]

Here's the thing. I know not everyone agrees that the actual MBE is easier than Themis's questions. But we've heard many people say that the real questions are easier, and we've heard no one say that they did substantially worse on the real MBE than they did on practice question sets. The only situation where this is liable to occur is if you have a crisis during the test. How to avoid this? Wake up early consistently in the weeks before the real thing -- you should be going to bed early and waking up early now instead of procrastinating that important biological clock factor to the last minute. And if you don't regularly drink energy/caffeine drinks or take medication in your practice session, the real thing is not the time to be experimenting. If you have a medical condition that could screw things up, plan out what you will do during the real thing to handle it efficiently.

Good advice. Not gonna lie, I definitely did a caffeine test run for the simulated MBE to figure out what was a good amount for me and I definitely found it helpful. Obviously I'll be more nervous on the real thing so I think that'll play into it too, but figuring out what makes the six hours of endurance better is really helpful.

Just make sure you don't unexpectedly get the coffee runs on test day. That would suck.

This is my nightmare. I am addicted to coffee, but maybe once a month it will not agree with my stomach. I am praying it does not happen on test day. I am tempted to skip the caffeine out of fear, but I think caffeine withdrawal would be almost as bad as the coffee runs! For lunch I know I am gonna keep it simple and stick to a sandwich. Nothing exotic or new.

Haha yeah, that's why I did my test run with caffeine pills. Coffee's great when you're bumming around at home and can go to the bathroom as much as you want, but I don't want any stomach troubles that day. Actually when my husband took the bar he took imodium just to be safe. I mean he passed, so it worked I guess.

[puttycake]

learning all the CA distinctions in evidence is making me forget the federal evidence rules... there's so many! Why can't everyone just agree on evidence for pete's sakes??! I worked SO hard to get good MBE scores in evidence and now I think they're going to plummet because I won't know what's fed and what's CA. Ugh. and that's my rant for the evening

honestly, i'm considering not even bothering to review the CA distinctions any further. If it comes up on the essay I'll just write some BS about prop 8 if it's a criminal case and then just use the federal rules (and whatever I remember from the CA rules). Fuck all those distinctions!

I'm starting to think the same way. We can still get points if we mess up the rules on the essays, but by studying all these distinctions, I'm getting the federal rules messed up now, and that's going to make me lose points on the MBE - and I need each and every point I can get. So frustrating

I just finished all of the available evidence essays (barring something in the essay exam) and I think that the differences just aren't big enough to get too worked up over. The present sense impression one exception is different, and that popped up a couple of times. I think the medical treatment hearsay exception popped up twice. Themis says the spousal privilege is with the party spouse, but the model answers didn't say so. I'm confused on that, but it's minor.

Then you just have to throw in Prop 8 for criminal things and look at a few things like previous convictions. But in general, there's not a lot that super picky in the essays (that I've noticed). More broad brush items like prop 8.

[Tanicius]

I just finished all of the available evidence essays (barring something in the essay exam) and I think that the differences just aren't big enough to get too worked up over. The present sense impression one exception is different, and that popped up a couple of times. I think the medical treatment hearsay exception popped up twice. Themis says the spousal privilege is with the party spouse, but the model answers didn't say so. I'm confused on that, but it's minor.

Then you just have to throw in Prop 8 for criminal things and look at a few things like previous convictions. But in general, there's not a lot that super picky in the essays (that I've noticed). More broad brush items like prop 8.

Yeah the Truth in Evidence Act is the big one. Most of the hearsay distinctions are in phrasings of the rule and not in real substance (like labeling a party admission as a non-hearsay exemption with the FRE or a hearsay exception for the CEC).

[puttycake]

I just finished all of the available evidence essays (barring something in the essay exam) and I think that the differences just aren't big enough to get too worked up over. The present sense impression one exception is different, and that popped up a couple of times. I think the medical treatment hearsay exception popped up twice. Themis says the spousal privilege is with the party spouse, but the model answers didn't say so. I'm confused on that, but it's minor.

Then you just have to throw in Prop 8 for criminal things and look at a few things like previous convictions. But in general, there's not a lot that super picky in the essays (that I've noticed). More broad brush items like prop 8.

Yeah the Truth in Evidence Act is the big one. Most of the hearsay distinctions are in phrasings of the rule and not in real substance (like labeling a party admission as a non-hearsay exemption with the FRE or a hearsay exception for the CEC).

And turpitude.

Which should be in every essay because it's fun to say.

[kapital98]

Your raw score is out of 190 points, even though you answer 200 questions. This is because ten questions are experimental and count for no points.

To account for those experimental questions, your raw score will automatically receive a 10-point boost on the real test. Note, however, that any questions you got correct on the experimental questions will also be subtracted from your overall score.

The NCBE will also award extra points for any questions they knock out of contention after scrutinizing statistical difficulty. What they're looking for are mistaken/inaccurate/unfair wording they failed to catch in their questions. The amount of knocked-out questions will typically be between 0 and 5.

Add the knocked-out points to your score, plus the 10 experimental question points, and you're realistically looking at boost of between 10-15 for your final score, depending on the test. That is called your "scaled" score.

I actually don't think this is right. I'm pretty we don't get a point boost to our raw score to "account" for the experimental questions and I doubt you get points for questions knocked out--I think they just knock it out. When they scale the score, they're trying to "equate it" by some statistical definition I neither quite grasp nor understand as I didn't pursue a PhD in psychometrics. The extent to which you get a "boost" will vary depending on whether you're on the high, low, or average end of the raw scores to the final scaled score. The scale will vary with each exam, just as it did for the LSAT. However, so far, if you do about average, it seems that your scaled score is as if you did about 5% better or so than the raw score suggests.

Anyway, the main point is that doing about 70% right on your practice questions should be the goal.

Now you've both got me confused. Tanicius, do you have a source for what you are saying? I've heard that Barbri advertises that their students will get an extra 15 points on the test because their questions are harder. I wouldn't be surprised if they were talking about the scaled score.

As of the moment 70% is the gold standard for me (NY). I think anything less than 60% raw and I'll be in serious, serious trouble. I'm scoring in between 55-65% on each of the subjects using all licensed questions.

I'd greatly appreciate any feedback.

[094320]

..

[Genuine4ps]

Does anyone know if every rule in the Secured Transactions handout is derived from Article 9? In other words, can I begin every Secured Transactions rule statement with "under Article 9…..?"

Similarly, can I begin every Commercial Paper rule statement with "under Article 3….?"

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

I reeeeally like the latest message we got from Themis - at least those of us in CA just got one tonight.
1) it let us know it was ok to let go of a few topics that are the most challenging... (YES! I'm gonna do that!) AND
2) best of all, it said we should learn more in the last 10 days before the Bar than we have in the past 7 weeks! (Oh please, oh please, oh PLEASE!!)
HURRAY!

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

learning all the CA distinctions in evidence is making me forget the federal evidence rules... there's so many! Why can't everyone just agree on evidence for pete's sakes??! I worked SO hard to get good MBE scores in evidence and now I think they're going to plummet because I won't know what's fed and what's CA. Ugh. and that's my rant for the evening

honestly, i'm considering not even bothering to review the CA distinctions any further. If it comes up on the essay I'll just write some BS about prop 8 if it's a criminal case and then just use the federal rules (and whatever I remember from the CA rules). Fuck all those distinctions!

I'm starting to think the same way. We can still get points if we mess up the rules on the essays, but by studying all these distinctions, I'm getting the federal rules messed up now, and that's going to make me lose points on the MBE - and I need each and every point I can get. So frustrating

I just finished all of the available evidence essays (barring something in the essay exam) and I think that the differences just aren't big enough to get too worked up over. The present sense impression one exception is different, and that popped up a couple of times. I think the medical treatment hearsay exception popped up twice. Themis says the spousal privilege is with the party spouse, but the model answers didn't say so. I'm confused on that, but it's minor.

Then you just have to throw in Prop 8 for criminal things and look at a few things like previous convictions. But in general, there's not a lot that super picky in the essays (that I've noticed). More broad brush items like prop 8.

Thanks! Been spending time with the rules/outlines. About to switch over to the essays now.

[Genuine4ps]

I reeeeally like the latest message we got from Themis - at least those of us in CA just got one tonight.
1) it let us know it was ok to let go of a few topics that are the most challenging... (YES! I'm gonna do that!) AND
2) best of all, it said we should learn more in the last 10 days before the Bar than we have in the past 7 weeks! (Oh please, oh please, oh PLEASE!!)
HURRAY!

I actually don't doubt this at all. I certainly feel like I am. In the beginning, we were simply being exposed to the material real fast. Now, I feel like I'm actually learning.

[kapital98]

Okay let's start over.

The MBE section has 200 questions. 10 are experimental. So we get a raw score out of 190. 1 point per question right.

But the "MBE Score" that you get when you get your results back isn't the raw score. Just as your LSAT score isn't your raw score, but rather, is converted to a scaled score. Historically, the MBE scaled score tends to be a couple points higher than the raw score, the number of points higher depending on how well you did.

It doesn't have to be this way---see, for example, the fact that the LSAT score is from 120 to 180 even though there are more than 60 questions and it's not clear why on earth it's 120 to 180 instead of 0 to 60.

Those with high raw scores get less boost to scaled than those with low raw scores.

This is how you apply that knowledge:
http://www.seperac.com/calc-bar-f14.php
The calculator at the bottom defaults to avg essay scores for people who failed. If you play around with the scaled MBE score, it shows that for that set of hypothetical essay scores, you need a 133 scaled MBE score to pass. But that's 133 *scaled*.

Because of how the scale has worked over the last few years, you can then assume the actual raw score was somewhere in the mid-to-upper 120s. So let's guess 127 raw score (could've been 125, 130, who knows). 127/190(remember, not 200, 10 are experimental)=66.84%. But because we're guessing, and it changes very year, then to be safe, just say 70%.

Therefore, if you're getting around 70% on the practice sets, and you assume you don't worse on test day, and that the scale is roughly the same as it is every year, then you should pass with the same avg essays scores of people who failed the exam.

Which is why I guess I'd suggest turning most of your attention to the essays if you can consistently get 70% MBE. But keep pushing until you do hit 70%.

Thanks.

[whirledpeas86]

Just did the Graded PT. Felt like I did pretty well. Preparing myself for the inevitable slightly below average grade that I'm sure is coming to me.

I also feel like the difficulty of a PT can vary pretty heavily. This one seemed easy.

Submitted my graded PT on 7/3, the day it was due and still haven't gotten a grade back. Based on how long it took my grader to grade my previous essays, I'll be lucky if I get it back before the exam. And if then, only if I send 3 emails asking for it. But yea, the one in PA was a straight up memo with one case, and I thought it was pretty straight forward.

Who's your grader? Mine has be awful thus far. I sent a couple emails to my attorney advisor asking to be switched to another grader with literally no response. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to put them on blast.

[Genuine4ps]

Just did the Graded PT. Felt like I did pretty well. Preparing myself for the inevitable slightly below average grade that I'm sure is coming to me.

I also feel like the difficulty of a PT can vary pretty heavily. This one seemed easy.

Submitted my graded PT on 7/3, the day it was due and still haven't gotten a grade back. Based on how long it took my grader to grade my previous essays, I'll be lucky if I get it back before the exam. And if then, only if I send 3 emails asking for it. But yea, the one in PA was a straight up memo with one case, and I thought it was pretty straight forward.

Who's your grader? Mine has be awful thus far. I sent a couple emails to my attorney advisor asking to be switched to another grader with literally no response. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to put them on blast.

Are you all even getting anything out of the graded essays? My responses seem to really generic.

[whirledpeas86]

Just did the Graded PT. Felt like I did pretty well. Preparing myself for the inevitable slightly below average grade that I'm sure is coming to me.

I also feel like the difficulty of a PT can vary pretty heavily. This one seemed easy.

Submitted my graded PT on 7/3, the day it was due and still haven't gotten a grade back. Based on how long it took my grader to grade my previous essays, I'll be lucky if I get it back before the exam. And if then, only if I send 3 emails asking for it. But yea, the one in PA was a straight up memo with one case, and I thought it was pretty straight forward.

Who's your grader? Mine has be awful thus far. I sent a couple emails to my attorney advisor asking to be switched to another grader with literally no response. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to put them on blast.

Are you all even getting anything out of the graded essays? My responses seem to really generic.

So far, all I've gotten is a line or two of very general feedback ("missed x issue" "use a more concise topic sentence") and occasionally longer feedback that's just portions of the model answer cut and pasted (bc apparently I'm too dumb to know that I should read the model answer to dirge out the issue I missed). Seriously worthless and SO frustrating. I have three more graded essays left but have been skipping them, hoping to eventually get a response from my attorney advisor agreeing to switch my grader.

[Genuine4ps]

That brings up another question I was wondering about. My IRAC issue statement is usually just a restatement of the question (e.g., if the question asks whether D is guilty of battery, I'll say, "the issue is whether the D is guilty of battery." lol). My grader hasn't said anything, but do you think it's a problem?

[mizunoami]

Who's your grader? Mine has be awful thus far. I sent a couple emails to my attorney advisor asking to be switched to another grader with literally no response. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to put them on blast.

Are you all even getting anything out of the graded essays? My responses seem to really generic.

So far, all I've gotten is a line or two of very general feedback ("missed x issue" "use a more concise topic sentence") and occasionally longer feedback that's just portions of the model answer cut and pasted (bc apparently I'm too dumb to know that I should read the model answer to dirge out the issue I missed). Seriously worthless and SO frustrating. I have three more graded essays left but have been skipping them, hoping to eventually get a response from my attorney advisor agreeing to switch my grader.

It's amazing the graders have a such a wide difference in quality. My grader always gives me back my essay in 2 business days. He gives me comments throughout, and then gives me a final paragraph on what I did right, and a full paragraph on tips for next time.

I'm sorry you guys aren't getting much out of your graders.

[Tanicius]

That brings up another question I was wondering about. My IRAC issue statement is usually just a restatement of the question (e.g., if the question asks whether D is guilty of battery, I'll say, "the issue is whether the D is guilty of battery." lol). My grader hasn't said anything, but do you think it's a problem?

The model answers don't seem to do this. They seem to hone the issue statement in more on the relevant element(s) to the issue.

Let's say the essay question is, "Is Bob guilty of burglary?" The facts show that Bob broke and entered a house mistakenly thinking it was his friend's house, after his friend asked him to break into his house and take possessions of his friend's because his friend worried his wife would never let him part with the possessions any other way.

Instead of "Is he guilty of burglary?" a better way to frame it might be: "The issue is whether Bob can be guilty of burglary for entering a house under the mistaken belief he had permission to be there."

[kapital98]

That brings up another question I was wondering about. My IRAC issue statement is usually just a restatement of the question (e.g., if the question asks whether D is guilty of battery, I'll say, "the issue is whether the D is guilty of battery." lol). My grader hasn't said anything, but do you think it's a problem?

I did that on my first several essays and my grader consistently told me that it was wrong. He was always asking for something more specific and saying I was missing out on points.

As for my grader: He's always prompt and gives back great feedback. I'm happy he's there to help me.

Edit: What Tanicius is saying is exactly what my grader was telling me to do.

[Genuine4ps]

Thanks Kapital and Tanicius.

[094320]

..

[Lasers]

does a police record fall under the business records exception or the public records exception to hearsay?

i thought it was business records, but an essay model answer used public records so i'm confused.

[TooManyLoans]

Okay let's start over.

The MBE section has 200 questions. 10 are experimental. So we get a raw score out of 190. 1 point per question right.

But the "MBE Score" that you get when you get your results back isn't the raw score. Just as your LSAT score isn't your raw score, but rather, is converted to a scaled score. Historically, the MBE scaled score tends to be a couple points higher than the raw score, the number of points higher depending on how well you did.

It doesn't have to be this way---see, for example, the fact that the LSAT score is from 120 to 180 even though there are more than 60 questions and it's not clear why on earth it's 120 to 180 instead of 0 to 60.

Those with high raw scores get less boost to scaled than those with low raw scores.

This is how you apply that knowledge:
http://www.seperac.com/calc-bar-f14.php
The calculator at the bottom defaults to avg essay scores for people who failed. If you play around with the scaled MBE score, it shows that for that set of hypothetical essay scores, you need a 133 scaled MBE score to pass. But that's 133 *scaled*.

Because of how the scale has worked over the last few years, you can then assume the actual raw score was somewhere in the mid-to-upper 120s. So let's guess 127 raw score (could've been 125, 130, who knows). 127/190(remember, not 200, 10 are experimental)=66.84%. But because we're guessing, and it changes very year, then to be safe, just say 70%.

Therefore, if you're getting around 70% on the practice sets, and you assume you don't worse on test day, and that the scale is roughly the same as it is every year, then you should pass with the same avg essays scores of people who failed the exam.

Which is why I guess I'd suggest turning most of your attention to the essays if you can consistently get 70% MBE. But keep pushing until you do hit 70%.

Thanks.

The MBE is scaled nationally. CA releases the scale with your score so you can look up the conversion charts. 150 scaled is usually around 70-73% correct. Since only 190 are score you would need 133-138 raw out of those 190 to get the 150 scaled.

[Tanicius]

does a police record fall under the business records exception or the public records exception to hearsay?

i thought it was business records, but an essay model answer used public records so i'm confused.

It would be a public record, but only if it's not prepared in anticipation of litigation. This is why a police report will almost never satisfy a record exception to hearsay.

[northwood]

does a police record fall under the business records exception or the public records exception to hearsay?

i thought it was business records, but an essay model answer used public records so i'm confused.

It would be a public record, but only if it's not prepared in anticipation of litigation. This is why a police report will almost never satisfy a record exception to hearsay.

in order for a business record to be admitted under the business record exception- timely record the information, the record must be a routine, repetitive and regular practice for the business to be engeged in, be under a duty to record such information, the act of making the written record of the information is a regular aspect of the business , and personally perceive the events. Police officers unless the facts specifically tell you that they personally witnessed the event lack the personal knowledge of the event. What they record are someone else's impressions of the event, so its hearsay ( but it could be hearsay within hearsay- so before you quickly decide "its not getting admitted" check the witness and how they got their information). If the statement made by the witness would not be admitted, then what they told the officer cannot be admitted. Which is why most of the time police records are not admitted as a business record exception

Like the poster above said, generally police records are prepared in anticipation of litigation. Therefore there is motive for the declarant to be biased towards one side, which taints the validity of the record. So it fails to meet the requirements to be admitted under the public record exception as well.

[Lasers]

does a police record fall under the business records exception or the public records exception to hearsay?

i thought it was business records, but an essay model answer used public records so i'm confused.

It would be a public record, but only if it's not prepared in anticipation of litigation. This is why a police report will almost never satisfy a record exception to hearsay.

in order for a business record to be admitted under the business record exception- timely record the information, the record must be a routine, repetitive and regular practice for the business to be engeged in, be under a duty to record such information, the act of making the written record of the information is a regular aspect of the business , and personally perceive the events. Police officers unless the facts specifically tell you that they personally witnessed the event lack the personal knowledge of the event. What they record are someone else's impressions of the event, so its hearsay ( but it could be hearsay within hearsay- so before you quickly decide "its not getting admitted" check the witness and how they got their information). If the statement made by the witness would not be admitted, then what they told the officer cannot be admitted. Which is why most of the time police records are not admitted as a business record exception

Like the poster above said, generally police records are prepared in anticipation of litigation. Therefore there is motive for the declarant to be biased towards one side, which taints the validity of the record. So it fails to meet the requirements to be admitted under the public record exception as well.

so under select circumstances, police records can be either a business record or public record?

also, how are you guys memorizing the rules for the essays? did you guys make your own outlines or are you memorizing off of the summary outlines?