Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam Forum

[smalogna]

I've also been told that you get 3/10 points (that's how they're scored in my jurisdiction) just for setting up a valid legal analysis; that is, stating a rule for the major issues, applying the facts from the question to that rule, and drawing a conclusion.

Again, this is gossip, so take it for what it's worth.

That's all? Seems like it should be worth more than just 3/10... Given that I don't remember even half of all the rules I need to know, it's pretty upsetting news.

This doesn't say stating the correct rule, just A rule

[smalogna]

Did any NY people notice that we have no NY Practice/Procedure Essays? Since that's the topic that supposedly shows up most often, that's a bit strange

It's shown up in 3 of my practice essays on other subjects. It's typically one of the 3-4 questions at the bottom after the fact pattern (SOL, motion to dismiss, etc).

On an unrelated note, question re. NY Wills: I just finished the Wills/Trusts graded essay, and my understanding was that photocopies of a will, where the original is lost/destroyed, but not by the testator (so testator didn't revoke), the photocopy can be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, but it can't be admitted to probate itself. The model answer was with me until the end where it concluded the photocopy could be admitted to probate. Which, when I think about it, it didn't make sense that it could be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, yet itself not be admitted to probate. Halp?

Also, I've done at least 3-4 essays on wills, and have had zero questions on intestacy. Has anyone hit that yet? I'm a little afraid of going into exam day having not analyzed a single intestacy fact pattern.

I posted this same issue a few pages back. I think the model answer is just plain wrong there. The outline clearly says that photocopies can't be admitted to probate, but only used as evidence of Testator's intent. Practically speaking I have no idea what the difference would be, but that's what the rule is.

I just think Themis got a little lazy with the model answer. Technically you aren't admitting the will to be probated, you are probating the original will but you are admitting the photocopied will to the probate proceeding in general. It's admissible to the proceeding but won't be "probated." Splitting hairs x1000

[sd5289]

Did any NY people notice that we have no NY Practice/Procedure Essays? Since that's the topic that supposedly shows up most often, that's a bit strange

It's shown up in 3 of my practice essays on other subjects. It's typically one of the 3-4 questions at the bottom after the fact pattern (SOL, motion to dismiss, etc).

On an unrelated note, question re. NY Wills: I just finished the Wills/Trusts graded essay, and my understanding was that photocopies of a will, where the original is lost/destroyed, but not by the testator (so testator didn't revoke), the photocopy can be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, but it can't be admitted to probate itself. The model answer was with me until the end where it concluded the photocopy could be admitted to probate. Which, when I think about it, it didn't make sense that it could be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, yet itself not be admitted to probate. Halp?

Also, I've done at least 3-4 essays on wills, and have had zero questions on intestacy. Has anyone hit that yet? I'm a little afraid of going into exam day having not analyzed a single intestacy fact pattern.

I posted this same issue a few pages back. I think the model answer is just plain wrong there. The outline clearly says that photocopies can't be admitted to probate, but only used as evidence of Testator's intent. Practically speaking I have no idea what the difference would be, but that's what the rule is.

yeah, I got confused there. We'll see what my grader says (he's been great so far). My clear understanding prior to that model answer was photocopies aren't admitted but can be used to prove the contents of the will.

[sd5289]

Did any NY people notice that we have no NY Practice/Procedure Essays? Since that's the topic that supposedly shows up most often, that's a bit strange

It's shown up in 3 of my practice essays on other subjects. It's typically one of the 3-4 questions at the bottom after the fact pattern (SOL, motion to dismiss, etc).

On an unrelated note, question re. NY Wills: I just finished the Wills/Trusts graded essay, and my understanding was that photocopies of a will, where the original is lost/destroyed, but not by the testator (so testator didn't revoke), the photocopy can be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, but it can't be admitted to probate itself. The model answer was with me until the end where it concluded the photocopy could be admitted to probate. Which, when I think about it, it didn't make sense that it could be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, yet itself not be admitted to probate. Halp?

Also, I've done at least 3-4 essays on wills, and have had zero questions on intestacy. Has anyone hit that yet? I'm a little afraid of going into exam day having not analyzed a single intestacy fact pattern.

FYI, Separac has a zip file of past NY Bar exams and model answers that's pretty helpful.

http://www.seperac.com/ (The link is under downloads on the left hand column.)

Gracias! Looks like it goes back indefinitely, so these will be good to practice on. We'll see how Themis' NY Essays simulation goes tomorrow.

[anon sequitur]

Each of the living class members, Doug, Fred, and Hilda, are each going to get _____1/5_________ of the remaining ________2/3_________ of the estate, or ____2/15__________ of the estate. Again, re‐bundle the remaining 4/15 and drop down to the next generation.

Each of the D, F and H are going to get 1/5 of the remaining 2/3. That's 2/15ths for each of them, giving you 6/15ths for D, F, and H.

But remember, DFH are getting 1/5th of *2/3*, that's 1/5th of 10/15ths. So you subtract DFH's 6/15ths from 10/15ths, giving you 4/15ths remaining of the 2/3rds. The other 1/3rd goes to whoever else.

[annapach]

-just so everyone knows-

I downloaded this *free* NCBE MBE from 1998 and recognized almost all of the questions from Themis practice tests. So. That's how you know what some of the real questions look like among your mixed sets, i guess.

https://www.ncbex.org/pdfviewer/?file=% ... ument%2F18

[anon sequitur]

-just so everyone knows-

I downloaded this *free* NCBE MBE from 1998 and recognized almost all of the questions from Themis practice tests. So. That's how you know what some of the real questions look like among your mixed sets, i guess.

https://www.ncbex.org/pdfviewer/?file=% ... ument%2F18

I don't get what you're saying here, that only those questions are real and the others are simulated? Or that at least we know that some are real?

For what it's worth, Themis doesn't seem to say on their website. I also have adaptibar and while I've only done like 150 questions on that site, I've recognized quite a few as questions I'd seen on Themis. The fact that they go out of their way to say that some have been changed from NCBE format implies to me that the rest are unchanged, i.e., original NCBE questions. I'd be pretty pissed if that were not the case (except Civ Pro, obviously).

[annapach]

-just so everyone knows-

I downloaded this *free* NCBE MBE from 1998 and recognized almost all of the questions from Themis practice tests. So. That's how you know what some of the real questions look like among your mixed sets, i guess.

https://www.ncbex.org/pdfviewer/?file=% ... ument%2F18

I don't get what you're saying here, that only those questions are real and the others are simulated? Or that at least we know that some are real?

For what it's worth, Themis doesn't seem to say on their website. I also have adaptibar and while I've only done like 150 questions on that site, I've recognized quite a few as questions I'd seen on Themis. The fact that they go out of their way to say that some have been changed from NCBE format implies to me that the rest are unchanged, i.e., original NCBE questions. I'd be pretty pissed if that were not the case (except Civ Pro, obviously).

Because Themis and other bar prep programs notoriously skirt this subject, it's my impression that the majority of the questions aren't real. Which would make sense, because NCBE only makes public a very small amount including the tests from 1998 and earlier, and the sets you can buy for $50. My guess is that Themis and Adaptibar can only access what we can access, albeit pay licensing fees to use them.

[anon sequitur]

Because Themis and other bar prep programs notoriously skirt this subject, it's my impression that the majority of the questions aren't real. Which would make sense, because NCBE only makes public a very small amount including the tests from 1998 and earlier, and the sets you can buy for $50. My guess is that Themis and Adaptibar can only access what we can access, albeit pay licensing fees to use them.

Yeah, I guess we won't know until we get something clear from Themis themselves, but NCBE does license quite a lot of questions. Adaptibar uses 1,730 licensed NCBE questions in their bar program (assuming they're not just straight-up lying on their website).

[healthnut]

I don't know how helpful filling out handouts over and over again in aid of memorization is for you, but it's very helpful for me. I've created some decent handouts that I plan to do over and over until we can finally call it a day. So far I have only done MBE subjects. If you're interested, please see my dropbox below. Good luck and enjoy!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dec2k4tm6hik ... Qd2Ja?dl=0

[annapach]

Because Themis and other bar prep programs notoriously skirt this subject, it's my impression that the majority of the questions aren't real. Which would make sense, because NCBE only makes public a very small amount including the tests from 1998 and earlier, and the sets you can buy for $50. My guess is that Themis and Adaptibar can only access what we can access, albeit pay licensing fees to use them.

Yeah, I guess we won't know until we get something clear from Themis themselves, but NCBE does license quite a lot of questions. Adaptibar uses 1,730 licensed NCBE questions in their bar program (assuming they're not just straight-up lying on their website).

Well the NCBE website gives access to MBE questions from 1972-1990, 1991 and 1998. That's 22 years x twice a year= 44 exams x 200 Qs= 8,800. I'm guessing at least 1,738 of those are still viable today- meaning it's not inconceivable that all the NCBE questions licensed by bar prep programs are already available to us for free? JUST A THEORY.

k i'm done

[InternationalShoe]

Any other NYers postponing today's simulated essay exam? I've been a couple days behind schedule and Themis has had me reviewing solely MBE for about the past week or so, and I really don't think I could craft a coherent essay today, let alone five. I'm planning on spending the day outlining the most heavily tested subjects/rules and take the simulated tomorrow instead.

[Raiden]

Is it just me, but the more and more MBE questions I do, the more I realize the Bar Examiners really are just trying to bait into the wrong answers like small child that just learned how to lie.

[IamIn]

I've also been told that you get 3/10 points (that's how they're scored in my jurisdiction) just for setting up a valid legal analysis; that is, stating a rule for the major issues, applying the facts from the question to that rule, and drawing a conclusion.

Again, this is gossip, so take it for what it's worth.

That's all? Seems like it should be worth more than just 3/10... Given that I don't remember even half of all the rules I need to know, it's pretty upsetting news.

This doesn't say stating the correct rule, just A rule

Haha ok, I can do that!

[2014]

Any other NYers postponing today's simulated essay exam? I've been a couple days behind schedule and Themis has had me reviewing solely MBE for about the past week or so, and I really don't think I could craft a coherent essay today, let alone five. I'm planning on spending the day outlining the most heavily tested subjects/rules and take the simulated tomorrow instead.

Yeah I'm going to do it this weekend most likely. Haven't committed enough to memory to make it worth it yet.

[Ahyis]

That simulated NY MC test... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA screw you. The scale better be +10...

[paulshortys10]

2 weeks left. What are you guys' schedules gonna be like? What are you focusing some. How are you reviewing MBE/ESSAY/PT, if at all. What breaks do you have planned (I have a baseball game this weekend )

[smalogna]

That simulated NY MC test... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA screw you. The scale better be +10...

Agreed the average made me feel a bit better about my TERRIBLE score but not much, at least it's only 10%??????

In other news, anyone notice that Themis is incorrect with their timing? They gave 75 minutes for the MC and 135 minutes for the three essays. We only have 3 hours and 15 minutes in the morning. Though each individual essay was timed as 40 minutes. THOUGH THE NY ESSAY WORKSHOP LECTURE SAID SPEND 45 MINUTES ON THE ESSAYS AND ONLY 60 MINUTES (LOL!) ON THE MC. WHICH ONE IS IT?!!?!



....yes i'm losing it.

[eloise16]

Is anyone else having insomnia about the test even though its still 2 weeks out? I don't know how I am going to get a good nights rest before the test.

[Confused7]

That simulated NY MC test... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA screw you. The scale better be +10...

Agreed the average made me feel a bit better about my TERRIBLE score but not much, at least it's only 10%??????

In other news, anyone notice that Themis is incorrect with their timing? They gave 75 minutes for the MC and 135 minutes for the three essays. We only have 3 hours and 15 minutes in the morning. Though each individual essay was timed as 40 minutes. THOUGH THE NY ESSAY WORKSHOP LECTURE SAID SPEND 45 MINUTES ON THE ESSAYS AND ONLY 60 MINUTES (LOL!) ON THE MC. WHICH ONE IS IT?!!?!



....yes i'm losing it.

What was the average multiple choice score? I'm going to start it now.

[zor]

Any other NYers postponing today's simulated essay exam? I've been a couple days behind schedule and Themis has had me reviewing solely MBE for about the past week or so, and I really don't think I could craft a coherent essay today, let alone five. I'm planning on spending the day outlining the most heavily tested subjects/rules and take the simulated tomorrow instead.

I'm also a NYer, also behind (about 69%), also not doing the sim exam today. I just finished the substantive lectures last night so I'll probably do it at the end of the week. I think my days are going to be doing some MBE work each day, and reviewing my outlines and making flashcards for 1-2 topics per day. (The whole "REVIEW ALL MBE TOPICS" assignment is lulz.)

Funny story: I emailed the guy who keeps calling me from Themis (regional director?) to ask if they consolidate all the rule statements somewhere, since right now should be about memorization. He said we shouldn't be memorizing rule statements (????) but should just have a glib understanding of the law and focus on analysis. SO FUNNY since my grader says Y U NO MEMORIZE LAW... ugh get it together, Themis.

Good thing I've been having anxiety dreams about this exam.

[annapach]

Is anyone else having insomnia about the test even though its still 2 weeks out? I don't know how I am going to get a good nights rest before the test.

YES though I think for me it's less about anxiety and more about having too much swimming through my brain.

[Ahyis]

That simulated NY MC test... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA screw you. The scale better be +10...

Agreed the average made me feel a bit better about my TERRIBLE score but not much, at least it's only 10%??????

In other news, anyone notice that Themis is incorrect with their timing? They gave 75 minutes for the MC and 135 minutes for the three essays. We only have 3 hours and 15 minutes in the morning. Though each individual essay was timed as 40 minutes. THOUGH THE NY ESSAY WORKSHOP LECTURE SAID SPEND 45 MINUTES ON THE ESSAYS AND ONLY 60 MINUTES (LOL!) ON THE MC. WHICH ONE IS IT?!!?!



....yes i'm losing it.

What was the average multiple choice score? I'm going to start it now.

It's 43% right now (lol at 60% goal) - I got 40%, which is awful, but then again that's like 1.5 questions below average so...

[smalogna]

That simulated NY MC test... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA screw you. The scale better be +10...

Agreed the average made me feel a bit better about my TERRIBLE score but not much, at least it's only 10%??????

In other news, anyone notice that Themis is incorrect with their timing? They gave 75 minutes for the MC and 135 minutes for the three essays. We only have 3 hours and 15 minutes in the morning. Though each individual essay was timed as 40 minutes. THOUGH THE NY ESSAY WORKSHOP LECTURE SAID SPEND 45 MINUTES ON THE ESSAYS AND ONLY 60 MINUTES (LOL!) ON THE MC. WHICH ONE IS IT?!!?!



....yes i'm losing it.

What was the average multiple choice score? I'm going to start it now.

It's 43% right now (lol at 60% goal) - I got 40%, which is awful, but then again that's like 1.5 questions below average so...

I got 40 as well.

[sd5289]

I'll probably be doing the NY simulation tomorrow, but my attempts at the NY multiple choice practice sets have been all kinds of fail. I've heard the same from friends of mine doing other programs too, and people who took it last year said they literally guessed on half of them.

So. That's fun.