Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam Forum

[Pickled]

Officially hit 75+% today. Still feel woefully underprepared for this thing

I think my biggest problem so far is that I know the rules well enough to get by on the MBE but when it comes to essay writing, I'm at a loss. Anyone else dealing with this?

Me in a nutshell

[somuchbooty]

So, guys, what do you think a bottom 10% type essay would look like?

I know this maybe is a pointless thing to think about, but I'm just running through how worried I should be about this currently and I'm wondering if a bottom 10% essay would be like 4-5 sentences of bad rule statements and that's that.

[sd5289]

So, guys, what do you think a bottom 10% type essay would look like?

I know this maybe is a pointless thing to think about, but I'm just running through how worried I should be about this currently and I'm wondering if a bottom 10% essay would be like 4-5 sentences of bad rule statements and that's that.

This is definitely good perspective.

A friend of mine doing barbri is telling me that the average % complete for NY is 43% of the program. With two weeks out. I'm assuming that means on average a LOT of people are really behind?

[somuchbooty]

So, guys, what do you think a bottom 10% type essay would look like?

I know this maybe is a pointless thing to think about, but I'm just running through how worried I should be about this currently and I'm wondering if a bottom 10% essay would be like 4-5 sentences of bad rule statements and that's that.

This is definitely good perspective.

A friend of mine doing barbri is telling me that the average % complete for NY is 43% of the program. With two weeks out. I'm assuming that means on average a LOT of people are really behind?

I actually intentionally wrote an essay that was pretty awful and left out things I knew and didn't evaluate it much at all and got a 40% from my grader. So that just made me wonder as to just how bad these things can actually get.

[somuchbooty]

Q: Are the essays on the exam as discrete subject-wise as Themis' are? The lecturers kept on saying things like "they like to combine Subject X (e.g., conflicts of law) with Subject Y (e.g., family law)," but I have yet to encounter a truly mixed question...

[+] Spoiler

Buyer, who was in the market for a car, heard that Seller wanted to sell his car for $5,000. On June 1, Buyer visited Seller and saw the car. Buyer asked Seller about the car’s condition. In response, Seller said, “The car is in tip-top shape—the brakes and clutch were replaced in the last six months. It’s in beautiful shape for a vehicle of this age. Good for another 100,000 miles easy.”

Seller agreed to sell the car to Buyer for $5,000. They both signed the following document: “Seller agrees to sell, and Buyer agrees to buy, Seller’s car for the price of $5,000. Buyer will pick up the car at Seller’s home on June 2 and pay Seller $4,000 in cash and give Seller a check for $1,000 at that time.”

On June 2, Buyer came to Seller’s home. Before handing the check to Seller, Buyer said, “I’d like my mechanic to look at the car to make sure that it is as you represented it.” Seller responded, “Don’t waste money on a mechanic. The car is exactly as I described it.” Even though Buyer, while at Seller’s home, had no way to tell if the brakes and clutch were as represented, Buyer thought that it would be a waste of time and money to visit a mechanic and thus decided to proceed with the transaction. Accordingly, after briefly inspecting the car, Buyer gave Seller $4,000 in cash and a $1,000 check drawn on First Bank. Seller handed Buyer the keys to the car, and Buyer left with the car.

On June 3, Seller went to Checkco, where he indorsed the back of Buyer’s check by signing his name with no other words and handed the check to the clerk in exchange for $950 in cash. Checkco was unaware of any facts about the transaction that gave rise to the check.

On June 10, the car broke down and Buyer had it towed to a mechanic’s shop. After looking at the car, the mechanic accurately told Buyer that the clutch had failed because it was old and needed to be replaced. The mechanic also warned Buyer that the brakes were unsafe and that the engine needed a complete overhaul or it wouldn’t last another 10,000 miles. The mechanic told Buyer that if the car had been as represented by Seller, it would have had a market value of $5,000, but in its current condition the car was worth only about $500—its value as salvage for parts.

On June 11, Buyer hand-delivered a letter to Seller. The letter informed Seller that Buyer was revoking his acceptance of the car and that Seller could recover his car at the mechanic’s shop. Buyer also visited First Bank and instructed it to refuse to pay the check that Buyer had given Seller.

On June 12, an agent of Checkco went to First Bank and demanded payment of Buyer’s check. First Bank refused to pay the check because of Buyer’s instruction and gave the check back to the agent. Checkco then promptly gave notice of First Bank’s refusal to pay to both Seller and Buyer.

1. What rights, if any, does Buyer have against Seller? Explain.

2. What rights, if any, does Checkco have against Buyer and against Seller? Explain.

This one is pretty clearly contracts and commercial paper. But yeah, I've been getting a lot of mixed ones.

[anon sequitur]

Passing along what I have heard from lawyers who have passed the bar:

on average, people complete about 50% of these programs (I heard this specifically about Barbri, but I'm assuming it's the same for Themis, Kaplan).

I've also been told that you get 3/10 points (that's how they're scored in my jurisdiction) just for setting up a valid legal analysis; that is, stating a rule for the major issues, applying the facts from the question to that rule, and drawing a conclusion.

Again, this is gossip, so take it for what it's worth.

[zot1]

Officially hit 75+% today. Still feel woefully underprepared for this thing

I think my biggest problem so far is that I know the rules well enough to get by on the MBE but when it comes to essay writing, I'm at a loss. Anyone else dealing with this?

I have felt the same way re: essays all along.

I just got a 79 on crim law and pro and wanted to cry. Still feel unprepared. Looking at the MBE breakdown, I only have four subjects above 65% (with one right at 65). The others are still crap, including con law in the 50s. Meh.

[sp1kedrat]

anyone have tips for the mpt? i'm having a really hard time reading through everything in 45 minutes, much less write the answer in the other 45.

[InternationalShoe]

Has anyone been answering the mixed MBE questions in test mode as opposed to interactive mode? Up until now I've been only using interactive mode, but I'm going to switch to test mode because I think it will be less of an emotional roller coaster. Also, I think test mode will be more efficient, given that I miss around every third question or so, and as a result I'm wasting a lot of time yelling expletives, getting pissed off at the questions, and getting pissed off at myself. In test mode I will only have one long meltdown at the end vs 10-12 short meltdowns.

I did this today for the exact same reasons and it's so much better. I was literally having a mini-anxiety attack on every damned question: "oh god I think it's B but maybe D I'm only 70% sure agh!", or even worse "it's gotta be C, oh my god that's too easy, I'm probably missing major exception dammit I'll never get everything memorized".

Also had the problem that after a question, or every few questions at best I'd go to another window to screw around for anywhere between 10 seconds and 30 minutes.

So going to do test mode from now on, just got to make sure I do a legit job reviewing.

Just did a mixed MBE set in test mode. I ended up getting around the same score as in interactive mode, but with about 10x less anxiety. Even though it takes a while to review the whole test afterwards, I think it's more efficient overall because it cuts down on the anxiety and allows me to review the questions with a clear head (as opposed to rage).

So, for all my fellow panic-prone people, test mode might be for you!

[colonial108]

Passing along what I have heard from lawyers who have passed the bar:

on average, people complete about 50% of these programs (I heard this specifically about Barbri, but I'm assuming it's the same for Themis, Kaplan).

I've also been told that you get 3/10 points (that's how they're scored in my jurisdiction) just for setting up a valid legal analysis; that is, stating a rule for the major issues, applying the facts from the question to that rule, and drawing a conclusion.

Again, this is gossip, so take it for what it's worth.

This is probably close to correct. I used Themis and did all of the practice MBE questions but didn't really mess around with the essays or MPT's. I read most of the essay model answers to get a feel for them, but that's really it. On the MBE topic essays, you will generally know enough law from law school and studying for the MBE itself to at least craft a coherent enough essay to score some points on it. I did a pretty good review of the non-MBE topics in order to prepare for the non-MBE essays, but really just from the summary outlines. I wouldn't say I memorized everything or drilled myself into submission. It's not possible to retain everything, so don't sweat it.

The best advice I could probably give for the essays and MPT is time management. You really aren't going to have time to do the suggested "read the question, outline, the answer, write the answer" stuff. The time FLIES during the writing section. Once you hit about 25 minutes on a question, start wrapping it up and move on. You don't want to get to the last essay with 7 minutes left. For the MBE, just make a mental note (or write down where you need to be) of time benchmarks to make sure you can get through all of the questions. You want to be at 33-35 questions per hour. I think I had about 5-7 minutes to spare on each section of the MBE. If you don't know the answer, make your best guess, write the question number off to the side, and revisit if you have time to do so. Theoretically, you have a 25% chance of guessing right, however, it's more like 50% in reality because you can almost always narrow it down to two answers right away. I remember after finishing the exam, there were maybe about 10 questions where I had NO clue on. The rest, I think I at least made a pretty good guess on or knew the answer.

Lastly, for the people who are worried about what percentage of the program they have completed, you shouldn't. I maybe finished half of the assignments. I didn't watch all of the lectures, I didn't do any of the workshops, and I maybe wrote four or five practice essays total (I did do all of the graded essays, but open book). I did do ALL of the MBE questions, however. I'm now a practicing lawyer with a small practice consisting of just myself and another partner (for now). That's what I wanted to do when went to law school, and I did. The bar exam is just a barrier to entry that you need to knock over. You can.

[IamIn]

I've also been told that you get 3/10 points (that's how they're scored in my jurisdiction) just for setting up a valid legal analysis; that is, stating a rule for the major issues, applying the facts from the question to that rule, and drawing a conclusion.

Again, this is gossip, so take it for what it's worth.

That's all? Seems like it should be worth more than just 3/10... Given that I don't remember even half of all the rules I need to know, it's pretty upsetting news.

[Ahyis]

I love when I get a practice essay question in which one of the sub-questions' model answer is like 2 SENTENCES LONG and deals with a NY distinction I never read about. Good times.

[anon sequitur]

This is probably close to correct. I used Themis and did all of the practice MBE questions but didn't really mess around with the essays or MPT's. I read most of the essay model answers to get a feel for them, but that's really it. On the MBE topic essays, you will generally know enough law from law school and studying for the MBE itself to at least craft a coherent enough essay to score some points on it. I did a pretty good review of the non-MBE topics in order to prepare for the non-MBE essays, but really just from the summary outlines. I wouldn't say I memorized everything or drilled myself into submission. It's not possible to retain everything, so don't sweat it.

Thanks for sharing, always good to hear from former passers who didn't kill themselves studying. I'm basically on the same plan as you were on, so hopefully it will work out for me, as well. I just don't have the focus/determination to do anywhere close to all the recommended stuff. I'm doing great as far as the MBE, but really just trying to get the general idea for state essays so I can write something vaguely on point for whatever comes up.

That's all? Seems like it should be worth more than just 3/10... Given that I don't remember even half of all the rules I need to know, it's pretty upsetting news.

I dunno, seems pretty good for basically making up a rule and applying facts that are there on paper in front of you.

[paulshortys10]

Q 110 of MBE review: SPOILER ALERT



TO summarize the facts: Mom and son bring a claim against D1 for negligence. Mom's claim is 55k and Son's claim is 200k. Then they permissibly join D2. There is complete diversity on both sides. D2 moves to dismiss Mom's claim against it for lack of SMJ. How should the court rule?

Answer - Gran motion because mother's claim was asserted against a D who was permissibly joined under rule 20.

So a court can never grant supplemental J over a P's claim to a permissibly joined D? Does it not matter that the son is also bringing a claim against D2?


Also.. If the facts say P is a citizen of a foreign country, but is a legal resident of the US and domiciles in State A, for diversity, is he a citizen of state A or foreign country?

[Confused7]

I just did 2 50-question MBE sets and got 68% on both. Failed to meet the 70% goal both times. I know it's a not a huge deal and it''s objectively not a horrible score, but it's days like this that make me want to throw my hands up when I feel like I've put in so much work to memorize shit.

[kgus22]

Has anyone been answering the mixed MBE questions in test mode as opposed to interactive mode? Up until now I've been only using interactive mode, but I'm going to switch to test mode because I think it will be less of an emotional roller coaster. Also, I think test mode will be more efficient, given that I miss around every third question or so, and as a result I'm wasting a lot of time yelling expletives, getting pissed off at the questions, and getting pissed off at myself. In test mode I will only have one long meltdown at the end vs 10-12 short meltdowns.

I'm losing it...

I've been thinking about this too. Except my reasoning is a little different. I have used interactive mode too up until now because it helps me learn more effectively... but I am sort of worried that I may be doing better than I will actually do on the test because interactive mode gives me a breather between each question and allows me time to reset my brain for the next question.... So I'm thinking I should probably do test mode so that I get used to a stream of questions with no interruptions.

I switched to test mode about 1.5-2 weeks ago. So much less anxiety, the sets go faster and I score better! I think I would get really discouraged if I'd get like 3 wrong in a row, but now I don't have that pressure.

[gr8scOtt!]

I just did 2 50-question MBE sets and got 68% on both. Failed to meet the 70% goal both times. I know it's a not a huge deal and it''s objectively not a horrible score, but it's days like this that make me want to throw my hands up when I feel like I've put in so much work to memorize shit.

If it makes you feel better, I did a 50-question mixed MBE and got 58% (out of a 70% goal) and the very next one, without any extra studying or review, got 86%. I'd rather have a consistent score like you than the wildly different scores I keep getting!

You're only one or two questions short of the goal - combine the percentages for each subject and figure out which one you did the worst in and review it. I found that strategy actually helped me for Evidence.

[paulshortys10]

I just did 2 50-question MBE sets and got 68% on both. Failed to meet the 70% goal both times. I know it's a not a huge deal and it''s objectively not a horrible score, but it's days like this that make me want to throw my hands up when I feel like I've put in so much work to memorize shit.

If it makes you feel better, I did a 50-question mixed MBE and got 58% (out of a 70% goal) and the very next one, without any extra studying or review, got 86%. I'd rather have a consistent score like you than the wildly different scores I keep getting!

You're only one or two questions short of the goal - combine the percentages for each subject and figure out which one you did the worst in and review it. I found that strategy actually helped me for Evidence.

This is the the type of inconsistency that scares me.

[chipperjones]

So a court can never grant supplemental J over a P's claim to a permissibly joined D? Does it not matter that the son is also bringing a claim against D2?

I think the issue is that the plaintiffs are asserting claims against a permissively joined D, which means those claims must independently meet SMJ requirements (diversity + AIC). While the plaintiffs remain diverse as to D2, Mom's claim does not meet the AIC with respect to D2, and so the court should dismiss her claim against D2. That Child meets the SMJ requirements for diversity regarding D2 is immaterial, as Mom cannot tack her claim against D2 onto Child's to get supplemental jurisdiction--notwithstanding their common nucleus of operative fact. I struggled with this question too, but it seems like the general permissive approach toward supplemental jurisdiction/aggregation where one plaintiff meets AIC does not apply to claims against a non-original D.

Sidebar: Themis's explanation for this question is worth, well, fuck-all. Each incorrect answer choice explanation simply says "as discussed with respect to answer choice A," when the discussion for why A is right is far from lucid.

[Lawbro]

Did any NY people notice that we have no NY Practice/Procedure Essays? Since that's the topic that supposedly shows up most often, that's a bit strange

[sd5289]

Did any NY people notice that we have no NY Practice/Procedure Essays? Since that's the topic that supposedly shows up most often, that's a bit strange

It's shown up in 3 of my practice essays on other subjects. It's typically one of the 3-4 questions at the bottom after the fact pattern (SOL, motion to dismiss, etc).

On an unrelated note, question re. NY Wills: I just finished the Wills/Trusts graded essay, and my understanding was that photocopies of a will, where the original is lost/destroyed, but not by the testator (so testator didn't revoke), the photocopy can be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, but it can't be admitted to probate itself. The model answer was with me until the end where it concluded the photocopy could be admitted to probate. Which, when I think about it, it didn't make sense that it could be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, yet itself not be admitted to probate. Halp?

Also, I've done at least 3-4 essays on wills, and have had zero questions on intestacy. Has anyone hit that yet? I'm a little afraid of going into exam day having not analyzed a single intestacy fact pattern.

[zot1]

I'm starting to get a little afraid that I'm still following directed schedule when it seems many of you are not.

However, because I am still "behind," my current schedule is a nice mix of review plus essay and MBE PQs. I think my plan is to keep doing that, do more MBEs at night or flashcards, etc., etc.

I'm starting to feel very secure on my MBEs even though I'm not consistent 70s yet (I had a mix of 50s and 60s in three exams in the past few days), but I just feel like I finally get them. I don't feel the same about the pure essay subjects. I don't think I know the rules for those as well as I do for the MBEs, so I'll make sure to review those two.

It'll be an interesting couple of weeks.

ONE AND DONE.

Just do what gels with your learning style! The biggest mistake I made was watching the lectures and spending so much time on those because others were doing it and it was in my directed study list. Those did NOTHING for me. I learn so much better from memorization and practice, so I stopped doing the lectures, sadly after watching a good chunk of them, and I don't feel bad about it at all. You know what you need to do and what you're weak on! Do it!

well, funny enough following the directed schedule works for me. I like the structure of it.

[InternationalShoe]

Did any NY people notice that we have no NY Practice/Procedure Essays? Since that's the topic that supposedly shows up most often, that's a bit strange

It's shown up in 3 of my practice essays on other subjects. It's typically one of the 3-4 questions at the bottom after the fact pattern (SOL, motion to dismiss, etc).

On an unrelated note, question re. NY Wills: I just finished the Wills/Trusts graded essay, and my understanding was that photocopies of a will, where the original is lost/destroyed, but not by the testator (so testator didn't revoke), the photocopy can be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, but it can't be admitted to probate itself. The model answer was with me until the end where it concluded the photocopy could be admitted to probate. Which, when I think about it, it didn't make sense that it could be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, yet itself not be admitted to probate. Halp?

Also, I've done at least 3-4 essays on wills, and have had zero questions on intestacy. Has anyone hit that yet? I'm a little afraid of going into exam day having not analyzed a single intestacy fact pattern.

FYI, Separac has a zip file of past NY Bar exams and model answers that's pretty helpful.

http://www.seperac.com/ (The link is under downloads on the left hand column.)

[lost in translation]

Can anyone help me please?
I detest fractions. I've asked this question through themis but the answer didn't explain my question so I have had to re-ask, but I would appreciate if someone here could explain the below to me like I'm 6 years old. It's the distribution example in the will lecture: My question is - how the hell is 4/15ths arrived at? If three living class members get 2/15ths, then isn't that 6/15ths in total? So how is the remainder 4/15ths? I'm sorry I know that this is the dumbest question ever but I can't get me head around how to do this!!!


Adam will take ____1/3_________ of the estate. Re‐bundle the remaining 2/3 and drop down to next generation.



Each of the living class members, Doug, Fred, and Hilda, are each going to get _____1/5_________ of the remaining ________2/3_________ of the estate, or ____2/15__________ of the estate. Again, re‐bundle the remaining 4/15 and drop down to the next generation.

[Lawbro]

Did any NY people notice that we have no NY Practice/Procedure Essays? Since that's the topic that supposedly shows up most often, that's a bit strange

It's shown up in 3 of my practice essays on other subjects. It's typically one of the 3-4 questions at the bottom after the fact pattern (SOL, motion to dismiss, etc).

On an unrelated note, question re. NY Wills: I just finished the Wills/Trusts graded essay, and my understanding was that photocopies of a will, where the original is lost/destroyed, but not by the testator (so testator didn't revoke), the photocopy can be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, but it can't be admitted to probate itself. The model answer was with me until the end where it concluded the photocopy could be admitted to probate. Which, when I think about it, it didn't make sense that it could be used to prove the contents of the destroyed will, yet itself not be admitted to probate. Halp?

Also, I've done at least 3-4 essays on wills, and have had zero questions on intestacy. Has anyone hit that yet? I'm a little afraid of going into exam day having not analyzed a single intestacy fact pattern.

I posted this same issue a few pages back. I think the model answer is just plain wrong there. The outline clearly says that photocopies can't be admitted to probate, but only used as evidence of Testator's intent. Practically speaking I have no idea what the difference would be, but that's what the rule is.