Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam Forum

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

there's no way i'm gonna pass the essays. i mean, i just don't know how i'll memorize all the elements necessary for every fucking doctrine. i got a torts essay with strict liability and malicious prosecution. i mean, i could sorta work my way through strict liability, but i didn't know a single element of malicious prosecution. sure, i would throw as much bullshit as i could because i know what the concept is, but i didn't have a single formal element in my head.

also, i have a sneaking suspicion that even after i look through all of the practice essays on the website, the bar will come up with something i haven't covered and i'm gonna be screwed.

It does seem daunting. I don't think I'm going to pass the essays either. And I'm taking the exam with all the Stanford Law peeps - hopefully mine won't get smushed in for grading with theirs. I guess at this point the goal is just to have something to put on the page if we get an essay we're unfamiliar with. That's what I did with Civ Pro yesterday. I only have a few rules memorized (the main ones), but no matter what question I get, IF we get a Civ Pro question, I'll at least have something to say. I'm not sure if I'll spot the right issues, or write the correct rules, but my page won't be blank anymore. Before yesterday, it would have been BLANK.

Eek, don't think of all the Stanford law people. If you're in California, there are a TON of unranked and unaccredited schools, including an online-only one. I'm in Michigan and if I imagined myself curved harshly against the 30 U of M students who take it every year, I'd probably die. I mean, I get that California's a nice state and more of their T14 people want to stick around after graduation, but I met a Cooley kid who was going to take the bar in California and practice corporate law, so try to imagine him instead.

Funny you should mention Cooley. Had never heard of that school before until I read an article a few days ago... something about one of their locations not admitting students for the fall? The article was ok, but BOY, the comments were so nasty. Couldn't believe it. One thing's for sure... you can have a fantastic attorney graduate from a crappy school and a crappy attorney graduate from the best school... and if someone passes the Bar, I think they shouldn't criticize what school they went to. Obviously, whatever they learned did the trick. But you're right... I'll try not to think about all of the Stanford Law Grads at my location... and I might even wear my CAL undergrad sweatshirt too haha

[puttycake]

and if someone passes the Bar, I think they shouldn't criticize what school they went to. Obviously, whatever they learned did the trick.

I swear, the only reason I am doing as well as I am on contracts in the essays and MBE is that I have deliberately put aside anything I learned in law school (which wasn't much) and learned it from scratch.

Just to say that I'm not sure my law school experience is always helpful.

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

and if someone passes the Bar, I think they shouldn't criticize what school they went to. Obviously, whatever they learned did the trick.

I swear, the only reason I am doing as well as I am on contracts in the essays and MBE is that I have deliberately put aside anything I learned in law school (which wasn't much) and learned it from scratch.

Just to say that I'm not sure my law school experience is always helpful.

Yep! there are definitely a few subjects that I feel like I've taught myself too! Guess I should have clarified... whatever they've learned at their school, or on their own, did the trick!

[MinEMorris]

Hey all,

I have been following this thread during the past two months, though I haven't posted recently. I read this article the other day and thought it might help calm some people down who are starting to panic: http://blakemasters.com/post/3711346829 ... -100-hours . The author appears to be an exceptionally bright person, but I think that there are still some good things to glean from the article for those of us (including yours truly) who are not so talented. For example, I think his reasoning about how people end up grossly overestimating the difficulty of the bar is sound and worth taking some comfort in. Also, just knowing that people have passed the bar with only 90 or so hours of studying--an amount that you could get in if you just started studying for the first time today--should, I hope, convince those who are feeling stressed that there's still time to get ready.

You all seem bright, and everyone in this thread has been working hard from what I could tell, so I'm thoroughly convinced that each and every one of you is going to pass. Anyway, just wanted to share on the off chance that it would help anyone's nerves! Good luck studying!

[puttycake]

You all seem bright, and everyone in this thread has been working hard from what I could tell, so I'm thoroughly convinced that each and every one of you is going to pass. Anyway, just wanted to share on the off chance that it would help anyone's nerves! Good luck studying!

Thanks!

I just had the very nice experience of doing a practice essay and just nailing the hell out of that thing. May everyone in this thread have this experience at least once before the test and, more importantly, on the test itself!

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

Did anyone do the simulated essay exam? Without giving anything away (I haven't taken it yet, and I assume others haven't either), do you know how we grade it? Did Themis send out the model answers? I won't have time to write out 6 full essays, but was hoping to at least outline it this weekend.

[simonesa]

Did anyone do the simulated essay exam? Without giving anything away (I haven't taken it yet, and I assume others haven't either), do you know how we grade it? Did Themis send out the model answers? I won't have time to write out 6 full essays, but was hoping to at least outline it this weekend.

For NY and NJ, you were able to view the Model Answers after you submitted ALL of your answers for that block of essays. Same as with the regular practice essays. There was no grading. Just the Model Answers.

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

Did anyone do the simulated essay exam? Without giving anything away (I haven't taken it yet, and I assume others haven't either), do you know how we grade it? Did Themis send out the model answers? I won't have time to write out 6 full essays, but was hoping to at least outline it this weekend.

For NY and NJ, you were able to view the Model Answers after you submitted ALL of your answers for that block of essays. Same as with the regular practice essays. There was no grading. Just the Model Answers.

That's how it worked for the practice essays in CA, but for the simulated essay exam, the message just said this: "After the Exam:
The essays and PT will be self-graded. Chances are you will not feel up to reviewing them Tuesday evening, that’s okay. In fact, I would recommend you wait to review them on Wednesday to ensure you have a fresh outlook and are well rested." It didn't say anything about submitting them or how to access the model answers... and we never get a follow up message. I guess I'll keep looking around the portal and maybe ask my advisor.

[lawyerwannabe]

Regarding mixed MBEs: what percentage should we be at to feel comfortable (especially if we lack confidence regarding the essays)? I wish Themis would publish correlations between how well students did on their MBE questions in relation to their performance on the real deal.

[bport hopeful]

Regarding mixed MBEs: what percentage should we be at to feel comfortable (especially if we lack confidence regarding the essays)? I wish Themis would publish correlations between how well students did on their MBE questions in relation to their performance on the real deal.

Depends on the state I think.

[lawyerwannabe]

Regarding mixed MBEs: what percentage should we be at to feel comfortable (especially if we lack confidence regarding the essays)? I wish Themis would publish correlations between how well students did on their MBE questions in relation to their performance on the real deal.

Depends on the state I think.

I'm NY if that matters . . .

[071816]

Did anyone do the simulated essay exam? Without giving anything away (I haven't taken it yet, and I assume others haven't either), do you know how we grade it? Did Themis send out the model answers? I won't have time to write out 6 full essays, but was hoping to at least outline it this weekend.

For NY and NJ, you were able to view the Model Answers after you submitted ALL of your answers for that block of essays. Same as with the regular practice essays. There was no grading. Just the Model Answers.

That's how it worked for the practice essays in CA, but for the simulated essay exam, the message just said this: "After the Exam:
The essays and PT will be self-graded. Chances are you will not feel up to reviewing them Tuesday evening, that’s okay. In fact, I would recommend you wait to review them on Wednesday to ensure you have a fresh outlook and are well rested." It didn't say anything about submitting them or how to access the model answers... and we never get a follow up message. I guess I'll keep looking around the portal and maybe ask my advisor.

it's 3 essays (morning) and one pt (afternoon). not that bad really. you can access the model answers for each session right after you submit your answers. i'm sort of disappointed that they didn't give us a rubric to grade ourselves. we basically just have the model answers to refer to.

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

Did anyone do the simulated essay exam? Without giving anything away (I haven't taken it yet, and I assume others haven't either), do you know how we grade it? Did Themis send out the model answers? I won't have time to write out 6 full essays, but was hoping to at least outline it this weekend.

For NY and NJ, you were able to view the Model Answers after you submitted ALL of your answers for that block of essays. Same as with the regular practice essays. There was no grading. Just the Model Answers.

That's how it worked for the practice essays in CA, but for the simulated essay exam, the message just said this: "After the Exam:
The essays and PT will be self-graded. Chances are you will not feel up to reviewing them Tuesday evening, that’s okay. In fact, I would recommend you wait to review them on Wednesday to ensure you have a fresh outlook and are well rested." It didn't say anything about submitting them or how to access the model answers... and we never get a follow up message. I guess I'll keep looking around the portal and maybe ask my advisor.

it's 3 essays (morning) and one pt (afternoon). not that bad really. you can access the model answers for each session right after you submit your answers. i'm sort of disappointed that they didn't give us a rubric to grade ourselves. we basically just have the model answers to refer to.

Oh, ok! I just found where to submit it online! Thanks!

[094320]

..

[lawyerwannabe]

Regarding mixed MBEs: what percentage should we be at to feel comfortable (especially if we lack confidence regarding the essays)? I wish Themis would publish correlations between how well students did on their MBE questions in relation to their performance on the real deal.

I think the idea is that relying on the MBE is unwise for NY since it only makes up 40% of our grade and the essays make up 40%. The rule of thumb I've heard is that you'll want around 70% right on the MBE to pass assuming you do average on the essays.

Thanks! I would not say I am relying on MBE but I want to give myself room for error on the essays.

[Genuine4ps]

Regarding mixed MBEs: what percentage should we be at to feel comfortable (especially if we lack confidence regarding the essays)? I wish Themis would publish correlations between how well students did on their MBE questions in relation to their performance on the real deal.

I think the idea is that relying on the MBE is unwise for NY since it only makes up 40% of our grade and the essays make up 40%. The rule of thumb I've heard is that you'll want around 70% right on the MBE to pass assuming you do average on the essays.

70% on the real thing seems hard as hell.

Are you sure that's right? In IL, for example, if you 75% of the questions right, you automatically pass.

[Tanicius]

Regarding mixed MBEs: what percentage should we be at to feel comfortable (especially if we lack confidence regarding the essays)? I wish Themis would publish correlations between how well students did on their MBE questions in relation to their performance on the real deal.

I think the idea is that relying on the MBE is unwise for NY since it only makes up 40% of our grade and the essays make up 40%. The rule of thumb I've heard is that you'll want around 70% right on the MBE to pass assuming you do average on the essays.

70% on the real thing seems hard as hell.

Are you sure that's right? In IL, for example, if you 75% of the questions right, you automatically pass.

70% is taking into account the 5+% bump you get from the 10-15 added points from scaling the score.

[bport hopeful]

That seems challenging.

[094320]

..

[bport hopeful]

What is considered average on the essays?

[Prime]

The excitement of the simulated essay exam! 12 essays in 6 hours. weeeeeee

[numbertwo88]

Does anyone have a very basic explanation for the difference between involuntary manslaughter and depraved heart murder?

After seeing an answer choice where the murder was technically the former but the latter was the more correct answer, I'd like a bit more clarification.

[bport hopeful]

NY Evidence is dumb as hell

[jumpingjack]

70% is taking into account the 5+% bump you get from the 10-15 added points from scaling the score.

Yeah, this.[/quote]

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 8 years old?

[Tanicius]

Does anyone have a very basic explanation for the difference between involuntary manslaughter and depraved heart murder?

After seeing an answer choice where the murder was technically the former but the latter was the more correct answer, I'd like a bit more clarification.

Here you go:

Remember that murder is a malice rather than intent crime. Most murders involve intent, but some do not. If you act with reckless disregard for human life, you are guilty of "depraved heart" murder. Only someone with a depraved heart would act so callously and recklessly.

Involuntary manslaughter is negligence, not recklessness.

But wait, you say. How do I know whether someone's criminal conduct was negligent and not reckless? How many drinks do you have to consume before your DWI-related homicide jumps from involuntary manslaughter to depraved heart murder?

Well, first you have your legal distinction between the two terms. Negligence is a departure from ordinarily prudent behavior under the circumstances. When you're negligent, you're often acting under a failure to recognize a reasonably cognizable danger. Recklessness, on the other hand, is doing something in spite of a known danger -- a danger known subjectively to you. So if you take 12 shots and drink 6 beers before getting into a car on a dark and stormy night, a jury could easily infer that you were actually aware of how dangerous your behavior was, and yet you chose to do it anyway. That's above and beyond negligence and constitutes depraved heart activity. Kill someone under that mental state, and you're looking at life in prison for murder.