2019 February California Bar Forum

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by a male human » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:53 pm

rose409 wrote:Thank you so much for this. Very helpful! Yes, I absolutely agree. So, the concept of a potential conflict can be addressed by the rules, but it's not an official separate rule that would require a separate heading or paragraph (which may have been appropriate on an exam using the old rules). Many thanks again!
You're welcome! Yes, the concept is there, and I would actually still keep a separate heading since actual and potential/material risk COI are different. Something like this?

Potential COI
Under the ABA and CA rules, IWC is required from each of L's clients where there is significant risk that L's representation of C will be materially limited by responsibilities to another client ... ... [or whatever your preferred "potential COI" rule statement is]

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Atmosphere

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by Atmosphere » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:23 pm

My rule statement for potential CoI is an additional heading where applicable, and something like:

Conflict of Interest

Conflicts of Interests can be either: (1) potential or (2) concurrent/actual.

Potential Conflict of Interest
A potential conflict of interest arises where there is a significant risk that the lawyer’s representation of the client will be materially limited - however, this material limitation has not yet occurred. The ABA rules do not require the lawyer to inform the client of a potential conflict of interest. However, the CA rules require that the client give his or her informed consent to the potential CoI before representation may continue.



Concurrent / Actual Conflict of Interest
Etc etc

(My aba vs CA rule may be old)

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by davidagnew » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:38 am

rose409 wrote:
a male human wrote:
rose409 wrote:
a male human wrote:
rose409 wrote:Hi all,

This is my first time posting, so I apologize if this has already been addressed!

For the new California PR rules, it appears that there is no longer any requirement regarding potential conflicts of interest. Is that right? Not sure if I am missing something... Many thanks!!
By my understanding, COI rules are similar to ABA rules (rather than doing away with it entirely?)

Some add'l information here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ms ... qZJs9NizUg
Thank you so much for this. I really appreciate it.

Unfortunately I'm still a bit confused -- it looks like the new Rule 1.7 literally does not even mention a "potential conflicts" distinction. (I did a control-F to check and the word "potential" does not appear anywhere in Rule 1.7.)

So, do you think it is safe to say that, definitively, (1) there is no longer any CA requirement to disclose potential conflicts, and (2) the conflicts-of-interest rule officially only applies to "actual" conflicts, without any special consideration for "potential" conflicts?

Thank you so much in advance for any help/insight!
Ah, I see what you're getting at!

New Rule 1.7 indeed no longer mentions "potential" COI. It may have been replaced by different potentially (heh) analogous language:
(b) A lawyer shall not, without informed written consent* from each affected client
and compliance with paragraph (d), represent a client if there is a significant risk
the lawyer’s representation of the client will be materially limited by the lawyer’s
responsibilities to or relationships with another client, a former client or a third
person,* or by the lawyer’s own interests.
http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/docu ... edline.pdf

Subsection (a) deals with actual COI, and in contrast, (b) deals with "significant risk." (c) seems to deal with personal conflicts by L or another L in the firm. (d) is basically covered by other duties under the rules -- diligence and competence.

This "significant risk" language seems potential-COI-ish... I would use that language, but I don't think it would be a big deal if you slipped and said "potential" instead. Would you agree?
Thank you so much for this. Very helpful! Yes, I absolutely agree. So, the concept of a potential conflict can be addressed by the rules, but it's not an official separate rule that would require a separate heading or paragraph (which may have been appropriate on an exam using the old rules). Many thanks again!
I think what it takes out is that old "potential conflicts" used to include having a close relationship with persons who would be "affected" by the matter. E.g., those old essay questions where Lawyer is a member of, but did not represent, organizations that favored a law, and then Lawyer wants to represent a client challenging that law. I think there's no longer a need to disclose that, but would like to know if y'all agree. However, the potential conflict that stays unaffected is the kind of thing where two business partners ask a lawyer to draft a partnership agreement for them. The lawyer represents both partners, and although they are friendly right now, their interests could diverge later. Under 1.7b, there's a significant risk that Lawyer's representation of one partner could be materially limited by Lawyer's representation of the other partner. Therefore, IWC is required. (I think this applies the same regardless of whether it's a new/old client, or they both walk in concurrently).

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by rose409 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:05 am

davidagnew wrote:
rose409 wrote:
a male human wrote:
rose409 wrote:
a male human wrote:
rose409 wrote:Hi all,

This is my first time posting, so I apologize if this has already been addressed!

For the new California PR rules, it appears that there is no longer any requirement regarding potential conflicts of interest. Is that right? Not sure if I am missing something... Many thanks!!
By my understanding, COI rules are similar to ABA rules (rather than doing away with it entirely?)

Some add'l information here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12ms ... qZJs9NizUg
Thank you so much for this. I really appreciate it.

Unfortunately I'm still a bit confused -- it looks like the new Rule 1.7 literally does not even mention a "potential conflicts" distinction. (I did a control-F to check and the word "potential" does not appear anywhere in Rule 1.7.)

So, do you think it is safe to say that, definitively, (1) there is no longer any CA requirement to disclose potential conflicts, and (2) the conflicts-of-interest rule officially only applies to "actual" conflicts, without any special consideration for "potential" conflicts?

Thank you so much in advance for any help/insight!
Ah, I see what you're getting at!

New Rule 1.7 indeed no longer mentions "potential" COI. It may have been replaced by different potentially (heh) analogous language:
(b) A lawyer shall not, without informed written consent* from each affected client
and compliance with paragraph (d), represent a client if there is a significant risk
the lawyer’s representation of the client will be materially limited by the lawyer’s
responsibilities to or relationships with another client, a former client or a third
person,* or by the lawyer’s own interests.
http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/docu ... edline.pdf

Subsection (a) deals with actual COI, and in contrast, (b) deals with "significant risk." (c) seems to deal with personal conflicts by L or another L in the firm. (d) is basically covered by other duties under the rules -- diligence and competence.

This "significant risk" language seems potential-COI-ish... I would use that language, but I don't think it would be a big deal if you slipped and said "potential" instead. Would you agree?
Thank you so much for this. Very helpful! Yes, I absolutely agree. So, the concept of a potential conflict can be addressed by the rules, but it's not an official separate rule that would require a separate heading or paragraph (which may have been appropriate on an exam using the old rules). Many thanks again!
I think what it takes out is that old "potential conflicts" used to include having a close relationship with persons who would be "affected" by the matter. E.g., those old essay questions where Lawyer is a member of, but did not represent, organizations that favored a law, and then Lawyer wants to represent a client challenging that law. I think there's no longer a need to disclose that, but would like to know if y'all agree. However, the potential conflict that stays unaffected is the kind of thing where two business partners ask a lawyer to draft a partnership agreement for them. The lawyer represents both partners, and although they are friendly right now, their interests could diverge later. Under 1.7b, there's a significant risk that Lawyer's representation of one partner could be materially limited by Lawyer's representation of the other partner. Therefore, IWC is required. (I think this applies the same regardless of whether it's a new/old client, or they both walk in concurrently).
Thanks so much for this. Yes, I agree that there would be no need to disclose in the example you mentioned. (I would maybe raise it in the essay but conclude that it would not be necessary.) And completely agree on 1.7b including those types of potential conflicts. Many thanks again.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by xonimi » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:53 pm

How do we verify if our laptops are certified for the exam?

I downloaded the 2 exams and the mock exam and uploaded the mock exam. I received 4 emails confirming the 3 downloads and 1 uploaded exam. Is that all? We don't receive a certification email?

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by davidagnew » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:29 pm

Is there a safe place to store cell phones outside the exam room? I'm coming from SF and testing in Oakland. I'd like to be able to use my phone in Oakland after the exam.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by davidagnew » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:31 pm

xonimi wrote:How do we verify if our laptops are certified for the exam?

I downloaded the 2 exams and the mock exam and uploaded the mock exam. I received 4 emails confirming the 3 downloads and 1 uploaded exam. Is that all? We don't receive a certification email?
You're okay. Successfully uploading the mock exam is the last thing.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by rose409 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:53 pm

davidagnew wrote:Is there a safe place to store cell phones outside the exam room? I'm coming from SF and testing in Oakland. I'd like to be able to use my phone in Oakland after the exam.
Yes, there is. Outside of the exam room, there is a protected area where people can place their bags. (I think that officially they are not responsible, but it is separate from the rest of the hotel and so seems very safe.)

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by Heyall » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:39 pm

jimmyjustice wrote:
Heyall wrote:
Also, Bar Guru last time around predict Real Property, with either Landlord/Tenant or Real Covenants.
Any word on what they predicted this time around?
No but i think they make it public in the days before. They keep their predictions for paying customers in the meantime.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by Heyall » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:42 pm

davidagnew wrote:Is there a safe place to store cell phones outside the exam room? I'm coming from SF and testing in Oakland. I'd like to be able to use my phone in Oakland after the exam.
As mentioned, there's a place by the entrance where they store backpacks and backage. A security person will give you a number for it.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by Heyall » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:48 am

jennimarcy wrote:

Hope I'm making sense. Now off to do a PT and a couple of essays. On another note, heard that projections state Business associations, Torts (neg), Civ Pro, either Wills/CP and Real property will be on the exam - I can't believe that they will NOT test prof. res. since the ABA and CA seems to always be tested. As for Evidence, be sure to start with Relevance, logical, legal, then apply hearsay and the exceptions. On the chance that they do cross overs be prepared to write quickly.

If you are burnt on essay writing, in the evenings just write out rule statements on past essays and then compare to the released ones.
Btw, where did you hear this from?

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by JakeTappers » Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:00 am

Heyall wrote:
jimmyjustice wrote:
Heyall wrote:
Also, Bar Guru last time around predict Real Property, with either Landlord/Tenant or Real Covenants.
Any word on what they predicted this time around?
No but i think they make it public in the days before. They keep their predictions for paying customers in the meantime.
Last year they gave out a few per day starting Saturday. This year, they just offered to sell them (today) for 295. So I doubt they’ll be releasing them, sadly.

I assume it’s pretty unlikely conlaw or evidence will be straight tested again.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by Grapes » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:17 pm

JakeTappers wrote:
Last year they gave out a few per day starting Saturday. This year, they just offered to sell them (today) for 295. So I doubt they’ll be releasing them, sadly.

I assume it’s pretty unlikely conlaw or evidence will be straight tested again.
Do people get their money back if she's wrong?

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by rcharter1978 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:59 am

Grapes wrote:
JakeTappers wrote:
Last year they gave out a few per day starting Saturday. This year, they just offered to sell them (today) for 295. So I doubt they’ll be releasing them, sadly.

I assume it’s pretty unlikely conlaw or evidence will be straight tested again.
Do people get their money back if she's wrong?
Anyone willing to pay this woman nearly $300 is as ridiculous as she is. IMO, this is the worst sort of con, because she knows exactly how desperate people are about the bar exam and she is willing to take advantage.

I wish like one person would pay for her dumb predictions and just repost them. I do not see how bar predictions enjoy any special legal protection.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by Anglelaw » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:22 am

rcharter1978 wrote:
Grapes wrote:
JakeTappers wrote:
Last year they gave out a few per day starting Saturday. This year, they just offered to sell them (today) for 295. So I doubt they’ll be releasing them, sadly.

I assume it’s pretty unlikely conlaw or evidence will be straight tested again.
Do people get their money back if she's wrong?
Anyone willing to pay this woman nearly $300 is as ridiculous as she is. IMO, this is the worst sort of con, because she knows exactly how desperate people are about the bar exam and she is willing to take advantage.

I wish like one person would pay for her dumb predictions and just repost them. I do not see how bar predictions enjoy any special legal protection.
I could not agree more with you...I was thinking that why the hell she is charging so much for prediction with. Some last minutes course. I wonder how far her prediction related to essays are true?


If anyone ever get a chance to be in her class and got her prediction previously please response and let us know how far it was closed to actual bar exam.

At least future bar takers learned and make wise decision.

Good luck everyone who is taking feb bar.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by Callaw375 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:37 am

Any recommendations for good bar tutors or courses, from experience.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by Heyall » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:13 pm

Grapes wrote:
JakeTappers wrote:
Last year they gave out a few per day starting Saturday. This year, they just offered to sell them (today) for 295. So I doubt they’ll be releasing them, sadly.

I assume it’s pretty unlikely conlaw or evidence will be straight tested again.
Do people get their money back if she's wrong?
She doesn't just sell predictions. The predictions come with the outlines and essays and so forth.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by Happy88 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:08 pm

Hey guys,

just a few technical questions, can I write on the essay questions booklet?
and for Examplify, it's two alarms per session is that correct? So I can set two alarms in the morning session and two alarms in the afternoon session?

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by rose409 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:11 pm

Hi all - quick, last-minute question... For confidentiality in California, must a lawyer disclose information in the case of a court order? Thank you so much.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by km0ney » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:16 pm

rose409 wrote:Hi all - quick, last-minute question... For confidentiality in California, must a lawyer disclose information in the case of a court order? Thank you so much.
Here's an indirect answer that I hope you, and anyone else, can take to the exam as a last minute advice:

It's unlikely you'll memorize all the nitty gritty nuances of the law. I certainly did not when I passed the CA bar in July. Here's what you need to recognize: What these graders are looking for--this "lawyer-like" thinking, is routinely demonstrated without knowing the exact law.

So, as I sit here, I do not know the answer to the question you posed. If such an issue appears on an essay fact pattern, here's what I would've done: I would've attempted to analyze the crap out of it. If I don't know it, that means it's a big enough issue for the graders to see you demonstrate lawyer-like analysis. I would bet this is one of those grey-area issues. As with many things in law, nothing is so clear-cut.

On the one hand, a lawyer's confidentiality with its clients are highly valued in our society. In fact, it's a building block of how our system works. Without such confidentiality, why should a client trust lawyers? How can a lawyer advocate for a client that's not truthful? Anything a client tells a lawyer, absent the exceptions that I very much recall from my 2-3 months of studying (involves a bad crime or substantial bodily injury to another, etc. etc.) is not present here. Or maybe it is, and you just haven't told me, and this would be a lot easier because all I have to write is "hell yes he must disclose it. even without a court order, a lawyer likely would need to break confidentiality if it [insert exception]." Since you included a court order as a specific detail, it's more likely that it doesn't meet one of the common exceptions that we learn during bar prep. So there's a strong argument for a lawyer to defy a court order and perhaps even take the sanction in order to preserve confidentiality.

Alternatively, assuming an unbiased judge where no facts have suggest a interference with the judge's objectivity (a helpful fact to further analyze/make an argument here), the judge likely has good basis for the court order. Perhaps the opposing party has strongly produced evidence that a disclosure is warranted. Does the evidence closely relate to the common exceptions? This is where I draw similarities to the common exceptions. E.g. we might break confidneitality because someone is about to get really hurt/die. We as a society dont want that. Do our facts somehow resemble this? Maybe not.

On balance, the lawyer could go either way--disclose because of the court order, or preserve confidentiality and take the sanction.

What I sloppily demonstrated is that you need to go into this bar exam prepared to think like a lawyer. You have undoubtedly learn the very basics of the law. You learn why there's a higher burden for criminal claims. You learn that tort wants to make victims whole. You learn that breaches of contracts are to make parties as if there was perfect performance. Use the facts given to you to draw this analysis. the bar does not try to trick you. What facts are related to what issue will be obvious. Use those facts. Analyze like a lawyer. Big issues will have strong arguments on both sides. You might side with one argument over the other based on policy, or based on a case you somehow rememebr frmo law school where it's factually similar. Or, you might not be able to draw any conclusion confidentally. in which case, you're porbably not expected to--do so anyways.

ok, back to my brief.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by Atmosphere » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:01 pm

bookstands okay for the exam? It says it in the rules, but I didn't notice any at the exam I took

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by rose409 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:54 pm

km0ney wrote:
rose409 wrote:Hi all - quick, last-minute question... For confidentiality in California, must a lawyer disclose information in the case of a court order? Thank you so much.
Here's an indirect answer that I hope you, and anyone else, can take to the exam as a last minute advice:

It's unlikely you'll memorize all the nitty gritty nuances of the law. I certainly did not when I passed the CA bar in July. Here's what you need to recognize: What these graders are looking for--this "lawyer-like" thinking, is routinely demonstrated without knowing the exact law.

So, as I sit here, I do not know the answer to the question you posed. If such an issue appears on an essay fact pattern, here's what I would've done: I would've attempted to analyze the crap out of it. If I don't know it, that means it's a big enough issue for the graders to see you demonstrate lawyer-like analysis. I would bet this is one of those grey-area issues. As with many things in law, nothing is so clear-cut.

On the one hand, a lawyer's confidentiality with its clients are highly valued in our society. In fact, it's a building block of how our system works. Without such confidentiality, why should a client trust lawyers? How can a lawyer advocate for a client that's not truthful? Anything a client tells a lawyer, absent the exceptions that I very much recall from my 2-3 months of studying (involves a bad crime or substantial bodily injury to another, etc. etc.) is not present here. Or maybe it is, and you just haven't told me, and this would be a lot easier because all I have to write is "hell yes he must disclose it. even without a court order, a lawyer likely would need to break confidentiality if it [insert exception]." Since you included a court order as a specific detail, it's more likely that it doesn't meet one of the common exceptions that we learn during bar prep. So there's a strong argument for a lawyer to defy a court order and perhaps even take the sanction in order to preserve confidentiality.

Alternatively, assuming an unbiased judge where no facts have suggest a interference with the judge's objectivity (a helpful fact to further analyze/make an argument here), the judge likely has good basis for the court order. Perhaps the opposing party has strongly produced evidence that a disclosure is warranted. Does the evidence closely relate to the common exceptions? This is where I draw similarities to the common exceptions. E.g. we might break confidneitality because someone is about to get really hurt/die. We as a society dont want that. Do our facts somehow resemble this? Maybe not.

On balance, the lawyer could go either way--disclose because of the court order, or preserve confidentiality and take the sanction.

What I sloppily demonstrated is that you need to go into this bar exam prepared to think like a lawyer. You have undoubtedly learn the very basics of the law. You learn why there's a higher burden for criminal claims. You learn that tort wants to make victims whole. You learn that breaches of contracts are to make parties as if there was perfect performance. Use the facts given to you to draw this analysis. the bar does not try to trick you. What facts are related to what issue will be obvious. Use those facts. Analyze like a lawyer. Big issues will have strong arguments on both sides. You might side with one argument over the other based on policy, or based on a case you somehow rememebr frmo law school where it's factually similar. Or, you might not be able to draw any conclusion confidentally. in which case, you're porbably not expected to--do so anyways.

ok, back to my brief.
Thank you so much. Much-needed advice! Really appreciate it, and your thoughtful answer.

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by JakeTappers » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:02 pm

Ok tell me what I missed. Sure it’s a lot.

First: community property, quasi community property, doesn’t matter that his money and his name only. Condo is cp. only has 50 percent interest. Cant create joint tenancy. Wife takes it all.

First will is value due to COL, likely. Stan is sort of omitted child (talk about condo and trust). Codicil is invalid due to capacity maybe? Bill doesn’t take.

Trust seems valid even though revocable. Creditors Can’t get by CP still liable, etc.

Second: strict liability for wild animals or propensity, premises liability, negligence as to both ps, not nied argument I guess, not battery or assault, assumption of risk and contributory risk analysis?

Third: Quiet enjoyment/habitability/constructive eviction and damages re: rent and finding new tenant?

Four: basically just hearsay, relevance, remedial, expert/opinion, and a really straight forward diversity?

Five: idk? All the normal stuff?

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by km0ney » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:07 pm

JakeTappers wrote:Ok tell me what I missed. Sure it’s a lot.

First: community property, quasi community property, doesn’t matter that his money and his name only. Condo is cp. only has 50 percent interest. Cant create joint tenancy. Wife takes it all.

First will is value due to COL, likely. Stan is sort of omitted child (talk about condo and trust). Codicil is invalid due to capacity maybe? Bill doesn’t take.

Trust seems valid even though revocable. Creditors Can’t get by CP still liable, etc.

Second: strict liability for wild animals or propensity, premises liability, negligence as to both ps, not nied argument I guess, not battery or assault, assumption of risk and contributory risk analysis?

Third: Quiet enjoyment/habitability/constructive eviction and damages re: rent and finding new tenant?

Four: basically just hearsay, relevance, remedial, expert/opinion, and a really straight forward diversity?

Five: idk? All the normal stuff?

Sounds very straight forward w/ no surprises.

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Atmosphere

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Re: 2019 February California Bar

Post by Atmosphere » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:16 pm

Maybe I’m just terrible at essays.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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