Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2016 Forum

[TLSModBot]

Does anyone have any tips for memorizing all of the civil procedure deadlines? I can't keep them all straight. :/

Nope. Best I've got right now is "sometimes it's 21 days except when it's 30 except when it's a year or maybe 10 days or maybe whenever reasonable."

[1down1togo]

Does anyone have any tips for memorizing all of the civil procedure deadlines? I can't keep them all straight. :/

Honestly, here's where I'm at:
14 days for a jury trial demand (just sticks out in my head for some reason)
something about 1 year for a new trial or re-trial or something like that.
Maybe 30 days from final judgment to appeal>>??
then guess 21 days for a lot of other things- since that seems to be a common answer.

Honestly, there are so many of them- how can we realistically be expected to remember them? Its not like with other subjects where the rule makes some sort of inherent sense, so its easier to remember or deduce. I figure, its not worth my time trying to remember 15 different time frames. If I pick some of them up while studying, great, but I'm not going to spend hours trying to remember arbitrary time frames.

I figure I'm better of trying to tremember rules that actually make sense- and then just guess/b.s. on the time frames.

Then again, my civ pro overall percentage is 5% lower than my next lowest score, so who knows.

[1down1togo]

Does anyone have any tips for memorizing all of the civil procedure deadlines? I can't keep them all straight. :/

Nope. Best I've got right now is "sometimes it's 21 days except when it's 30 except when it's a year or maybe 10 days or maybe whenever reasonable."

HAHA! That is literally my exact process.

Honestly, 21 days is the most used, so I figure its best to go with that.

[kiwi06511]

Does anyone have any tips for memorizing all of the civil procedure deadlines? I can't keep them all straight. :/

Honestly, here's where I'm at:
14 days for a jury trial demand (just sticks out in my head for some reason)
something about 1 year for a new trial or re-trial or something like that.
Maybe 30 days from final judgment to appeal>>??
then guess 21 days for a lot of other things- since that seems to be a common answer.

Honestly, there are so many of them- how can we realistically be expected to remember them? Its not like with other subjects where the rule makes some sort of inherent sense, so its easier to remember or deduce. I figure, its not worth my time trying to remember 15 different time frames. If I pick some of them up while studying, great, but I'm not going to spend hours trying to remember arbitrary time frames.

I figure I'm better of trying to tremember rules that actually make sense- and then just guess/b.s. on the time frames.

Then again, my civ pro overall percentage is 5% lower than my next lowest score, so who knows.

Ugh, I know. It just seems like so many of the civ pro questions depend on actually knowing the timelines.

The only theme/pattern/whatever I've noticed is that the response times for discovery stuff (rogs, RFPs, RFAs) are all 30 days.

The other one that sticks in my head is service has to be within 90 days of filing. The only reason I seem to know that is because that's the recently changed rule that affected the correct answer to a question on Milestone Exam #2.

Gahhhh!

[1down1togo]

Does anyone have any tips for memorizing all of the civil procedure deadlines? I can't keep them all straight. :/

Honestly, here's where I'm at:
14 days for a jury trial demand (just sticks out in my head for some reason)
something about 1 year for a new trial or re-trial or something like that.
Maybe 30 days from final judgment to appeal>>??
then guess 21 days for a lot of other things- since that seems to be a common answer.

Honestly, there are so many of them- how can we realistically be expected to remember them? Its not like with other subjects where the rule makes some sort of inherent sense, so its easier to remember or deduce. I figure, its not worth my time trying to remember 15 different time frames. If I pick some of them up while studying, great, but I'm not going to spend hours trying to remember arbitrary time frames.

I figure I'm better of trying to tremember rules that actually make sense- and then just guess/b.s. on the time frames.

Then again, my civ pro overall percentage is 5% lower than my next lowest score, so who knows.

Ugh, I know. It just seems like so many of the civ pro questions depend on actually knowing the timelines.

The only theme/pattern/whatever I've noticed is that the response times for discovery stuff (rogs, RFPs, RFAs) are all 30 days.

The other one that sticks in my head is service has to be within 90 days of filing. The only reason I seem to know that is because that's the recently changed rule that affected the correct answer to a question on Milestone Exam #2.

Gahhhh!

Here's how I think about it. The MBE has 200 questions. 26 of them will be civ pro. Lets assume that 10% of civ pro questions you have to know an exact timeline to get right. Thats 2.6 questions. Out of 200 questions total= 1.3% of your raw MBE grade. Heck, lets double it- lets say that 20%- 1 in every 5 civ pro questions requires knowledge of the time line to get right- that's still only 2.6% of your total MBE grade. And that's assuming you don't guess any right.

Now, obviously, you could do this for every sub-topic- any sub-topic alone won't kill you- but if you ignore all of them, you will obviously fail. When I Took the NC bar back in 2013, I said screw RAP and screw the best evidence rule. I passed- i was fine. This time, I am saying still screw RAP and screw timeframes in civ pro (themis has somehow managed to teach me the best evidence rule- despite me not being able to pick it up in law school, studying for the bar the first time, or in 3 years of practice).

Honestly, I jsut feel like the hours you would have to spend memorizing all of them can be better spent elsewhere.

But, I mean, if you've got the time and a good method, go for it.

[livinlaw]

Does anyone have any tips for memorizing all of the civil procedure deadlines? I can't keep them all straight. :/

For civ pro I am writing out a timeline that goes chronologically in the order of pre-trial / trial / post-trial for deadlines. Pin up on wall / write it on mirror with dry erase marker / use quizlet to just keep reinforcing!

[luxxe]

Does anyone have any tips for memorizing all of the civil procedure deadlines? I can't keep them all straight. :/

For civ pro I am writing out a timeline that goes chronologically in the order of pre-trial / trial / post-trial for deadlines. Pin up on wall / write it on mirror with dry erase marker / use quizlet to just keep reinforcing!

Timeline - such a smart idea! Going to do this tonight.

Also currently choosing 14 or 21 at random right now when those questions come up...

[ndp1234]

Yeah, okay Themis. Mixed PQ Set 6 was the hardest one yet, but you set the goal to 70%???

[BigZuck]

Yeah, okay Themis. Mixed PQ Set 6 was the hardest one yet, but you set the goal to 70%???

Themis gotta Them

trololol

You just got THEMISED

etc.

[TLSModBot]

Yeah, okay Themis. Mixed PQ Set 6 was the hardest one yet, but you set the goal to 70%???

Themis gotta Them

trololol

You just got THEMISED

etc.

Themis tries to improve us by pushing us to the limits with its unpredictable abusive psychosis

It's like R. Lee Ermey from Full Metal Jacket meets Vincent D'onofrio from Full Metal Jacket

[salix]

Yeah, okay Themis. Mixed PQ Set 6 was the hardest one yet, but you set the goal to 70%???

Themis gotta Them

trololol

You just got THEMISED

etc.

Themis tries to improve us by pushing us to the limits with its unpredictable abusive psychosis

It's like R. Lee Ermey from Full Metal Jacket meets Vincent D'onofrio from Full Metal Jacket

Yeah, that didn't end well.

[ndp1234]

Yeah, okay Themis. Mixed PQ Set 6 was the hardest one yet, but you set the goal to 70%???

Themis gotta Them

trololol

You just got THEMISED

etc.

Themis tries to improve us by pushing us to the limits with its unpredictable abusive psychosis

It's like R. Lee Ermey from Full Metal Jacket meets Vincent D'onofrio from Full Metal Jacket

Yeah, that didn't end well.

At least it's not at the level of Barbri, so it's okay. I just wish they didn't concentrate all of the hard questions in one set. It's an emotional rollercoaster.

[dkb17xzx]

SCOTUS has original jurisdiction in cases where two or more states are embroiled in a controversy, right? Not just any case where a state is a party?

I'm asking because the correct answer in one of the MBE questions states "Yes, because the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction over all cases in which a state is a party." This would be technically incorrect since it would mean you only need the state on one side of the case. Any schmuck could be on the other side.

That was the best answer because the other answers were basically shitty. The issue with that question was:

[+] Spoiler

Answer choice C says Congress provided original jurisdiction, which is wrong because Congress cannot modify or reduce SCOTUS' original jurisdiction. Congress can only modify appellate jurisdiction. Answer D was better because SCOTUS in fact does has original jurisdiction over all cases where state is a party, but this has been limited by the court itself for prudential reasons.

Yea I figured - it's just that I know the rules but then fudge this up. It's frustrating.

Thanks for the explanation!

[ndp1234]

Does anyone have any tips for memorizing all of the civil procedure deadlines? I can't keep them all straight. :/

I group them by type of document, and a rationalization for each so I can remember.

21 days - Most initial responsive pleadings, motions based on the pleadings, motion to dismiss. Basically anything that the defendant uses to respond to plaintiffs. Answers to counterclaims count as an initial responsive pleading because it's a new claim. Beginning of discovery is 21 days before scheduling order because it's the initial step of discovery.

14 days - Jury trial, other motions that aren't the first responsive document to the complaint). Just think they need less time to think because they already know a lawsuit is in action.

30 days - Most 30 day time limits are related to discovery. Just think it's longer because it takes time to discover information, rather than just formulating a response. But objections are just a response to discovery so that's 14 days.

I realize this is very barebones, but I think it's a good starting point.

[kay2016]

Finally did milestone #2, did so much better ( > 15% better) than milestone #1.

Felt like shit about it though.

[luxxe]

Soo many of the Ks MBE PQ 6 have this disclaimer - "The foregoing NCBE MBE question has been modified to reflect current NCBE stylistic approaches; the NCBE has not reviewed or endorsed this modification."

I keep missing these questions, blaming Themis for weirdly worded questions and answers...

[iliketurtles123]

Does it drive anyone crazy when the model answers for the essays discuss blatantly wrong arguments, just for the sake of argument?

For example, they bring up arguments that would NEVER work but they just write about it anyway.
Example:

[+] Spoiler

For many "co-tenancy" questions, adverse possession is always brought up, even though the co-tenant will never obtain the property through adverse possession since the exclusivity requirement cannot be met.

It drives me crazy because on law school exams, we were told specifically not to do this because it wastes time and diverts away from the real issues

[jchiles]

Does anyone have any tips for memorizing all of the civil procedure deadlines? I can't keep them all straight. :/

I group them by type of document, and a rationalization for each so I can remember.

21 days - Most initial responsive pleadings, motions based on the pleadings, motion to dismiss. Basically anything that the defendant uses to respond to plaintiffs. Answers to counterclaims count as an initial responsive pleading because it's a new claim. Beginning of discovery is 21 days before scheduling order because it's the initial step of discovery.

14 days - Jury trial, other motions that aren't the first responsive document to the complaint). Just think they need less time to think because they already know a lawsuit is in action.

30 days - Most 30 day time limits are related to discovery. Just think it's longer because it takes time to discover information, rather than just formulating a response. But objections are just a response to discovery so that's 14 days.

I realize this is very barebones, but I think it's a good starting point.

Wow that actually does really help, thanks!

[TLSModBot]

Does it drive anyone crazy when the model answers for the essays discuss blatantly wrong arguments, just for the sake of argument?

For example, they bring up arguments that would NEVER work but they just write about it anyway.
Example:

[+] Spoiler

For many "co-tenancy" questions, adverse possession is always brought up, even though the co-tenant will never obtain the property through adverse possession since the exclusivity requirement cannot be met.

It drives me crazy because on law school exams, we were told specifically not to do this because it wastes time and diverts away from the real issues

It bugs the shit out of me, but I think these essays are kind of a "look at me I know ALL DESE LAWS" show more than it is just hunting for a concise and accurate response. Or maybe that's just Themis being Themis.

[ndp1234]

from Mixed PQ Set 6 (q about woman agreeing with bartender to beat up cheating boyfriend):

[+] Spoiler

A woman discovered that her boyfriend was cheating on her. She approached the bartender at her local bar, who she had heard was a member of a biker gang, and offered him $500 to beat up her boyfriend. The bartender agreed immediately. The bartender was actually an undercover officer, however, and he did not intend to beat up the boyfriend. The woman was arrested the next day and charged with solicitation, conspiracy, and assault. The jurisdiction recognizes the common law regarding these crimes. Are the charges against the woman proper?

Answers:

Yes as to solicitation, but no as to assault and conspiracy.
Correct Answer: Yes as to solicitation and assault, but no as to conspiracy.
Yes as to solicitation and conspiracy, but no as to assault.
No as to all charges.

Can someone explain why solicitation doesn't merge into the completed crime here ?

[whsy]

from Mixed PQ Set 6 (q about woman agreeing with bartender to beat up cheating boyfriend):

[+] Spoiler

A woman discovered that her boyfriend was cheating on her. She approached the bartender at her local bar, who she had heard was a member of a biker gang, and offered him $500 to beat up her boyfriend. The bartender agreed immediately. The bartender was actually an undercover officer, however, and he did not intend to beat up the boyfriend. The woman was arrested the next day and charged with solicitation, conspiracy, and assault. The jurisdiction recognizes the common law regarding these crimes. Are the charges against the woman proper?

Answers:

Yes as to solicitation, but no as to assault and conspiracy.
Correct Answer: Yes as to solicitation and assault, but no as to conspiracy.
Yes as to solicitation and conspiracy, but no as to assault.
No as to all charges.

Can someone explain why solicitation doesn't merge into the completed crime here ?

It doesn't merge because there is no agreement. Under CL, you cannot enter into a conspiracy with an undercover officer because there is no real agreement on the undercover cop's part to beat up the boyfriend.

[hirkaismyname]

from Mixed PQ Set 6 (q about woman agreeing with bartender to beat up cheating boyfriend):

[+] Spoiler

A woman discovered that her boyfriend was cheating on her. She approached the bartender at her local bar, who she had heard was a member of a biker gang, and offered him $500 to beat up her boyfriend. The bartender agreed immediately. The bartender was actually an undercover officer, however, and he did not intend to beat up the boyfriend. The woman was arrested the next day and charged with solicitation, conspiracy, and assault. The jurisdiction recognizes the common law regarding these crimes. Are the charges against the woman proper?

Answers:

Yes as to solicitation, but no as to assault and conspiracy.
Correct Answer: Yes as to solicitation and assault, but no as to conspiracy.
Yes as to solicitation and conspiracy, but no as to assault.
No as to all charges.

Can someone explain why solicitation doesn't merge into the completed crime here ?

It doesn't merge because there is no agreement. Under CL, you cannot enter into a conspiracy with an undercover officer because there is no real agreement on the undercover cop's part to beat up the boyfriend.

I get why no conspiracy (need 2 people to agree under CL), but I don't get why assault would be charged. Doesn't the intended target (boyfriend) have to have a reasonable apprehension of imminent harm? The facts seem to indicate that the Bartender never went forward with the act of beating up the boyfriend.

[Chardee_MacDennis]

from Mixed PQ Set 6 (q about woman agreeing with bartender to beat up cheating boyfriend):

[+] Spoiler

A woman discovered that her boyfriend was cheating on her. She approached the bartender at her local bar, who she had heard was a member of a biker gang, and offered him $500 to beat up her boyfriend. The bartender agreed immediately. The bartender was actually an undercover officer, however, and he did not intend to beat up the boyfriend. The woman was arrested the next day and charged with solicitation, conspiracy, and assault. The jurisdiction recognizes the common law regarding these crimes. Are the charges against the woman proper?

Answers:

Yes as to solicitation, but no as to assault and conspiracy.
Correct Answer: Yes as to solicitation and assault, but no as to conspiracy.
Yes as to solicitation and conspiracy, but no as to assault.
No as to all charges.

Can someone explain why solicitation doesn't merge into the completed crime here ?

[+] Spoiler

B/c assault can also be considered an attempted battery, so the solicitation wouldn't merge with the attempt

[NaeDeen]

I don't think I'll ever be able to explain in any language how much I loathe civ pro. It's infuriating. And this is coming from someone who has taken countless tax classes! Seriously, the IRS code is so much more learnable than this foolishness. What in the world is an interpleader/impleader?!!!!! So. Many. Rules. Just, WHY?!!! *sigh* sorry...

[NaeDeen]

I need someone to explain this shit to me like I'm a brain dead comatose monkey drooling at the mouth that's hanging on for dear life with pictures and numbers. Maybe then I'll get it. *banging head on table*