Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam Forum

[j1987]

I mean, we even covered actual cases in evidence class where witnesses were excited hours after events transpired. Normally this would be a situation where the 2-hour window is put into the fact pattern out of a deliberate attempt to trick people into thinking the excited utterance couldn't apply when in fact it does. Since there's no NCBE notation, I'm chalking this one up to Themis.

I got this question wrong too for the exact same reason.

[Prime]

I picked B without first reading the rest of your post/explanation. But it does shed light on a major problem with multiple choice questions that arent 100 percent objective.

I mean, we even covered actual cases in evidence class where witnesses were excited hours after events transpired. Normally this would be a situation where the 2-hour window is put into the fact pattern out of a deliberate attempt to trick people into thinking the excited utterance couldn't apply when in fact it does. Since there's no NCBE notation, I'm chalking this one up to Themis.

Yea, I know the case you are talking about.

[j1987]

Wait, so if we are about 60% for each of the MBE subjects, we are doing pretty well?

[dreakol]

I picked B without first reading the rest of your post/explanation. But it does shed light on a major problem with multiple choice questions that arent 100 percent objective.

I mean, we even covered actual cases in evidence class where witnesses were excited hours after events transpired. Normally this would be a situation where the 2-hour window is put into the fact pattern out of a deliberate attempt to trick people into thinking the excited utterance couldn't apply when in fact it does. Since there's no NCBE notation, I'm chalking this one up to Themis.

Lapse of time isn't the only consideration for excited utterance though, right? The mere fact that he was asked a specific, direct question and responded could show reflection on the issue.

Good essay question. Bad MC question.

[numbertwo88]

Do any if you feel prepared for the simulated MBE this week? I certainly do not but I feel like just sacrificing my emotions and mental stability and taking it anyway.

[Tanicius]

Do any if you feel prepared for the simulated MBE this week? I certainly do not but I feel like just sacrificing my emotions and mental stability and taking it anyway.

Hahahaha, nope! 50 questions at a time severely presses my mental faculties. 200 is going to murder me.

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

Do any if you feel prepared for the simulated MBE this week? I certainly do not but I feel like just sacrificing my emotions and mental stability and taking it anyway.

Hahahaha, nope! 50 questions at a time severely presses my mental faculties. 200 is going to murder me.

The only thing I'm stressing about is that it will take 6 hours away from much needed study time for the essays. I feel MUCH more prepared for the MBEs than I do for the CA Essays... it's all a whirlwind of mish-mash at this point. And honestly, like Tanicius, I just don't know how I'm going to sit through it... 200??!! Holy heck.

[mmmnnn]

Do any if you feel prepared for the simulated MBE this week? I certainly do not but I feel like just sacrificing my emotions and mental stability and taking it anyway.

No, no, no. I need to find some quality time with Property and Contracts first - and maybe Evidence, too. Just spent a whole day reviewing Torts. Feeling okay about Crim stuff. Can't remember the last time I even looked at Con Law....

[Tanicius]

Do any if you feel prepared for the simulated MBE this week? I certainly do not but I feel like just sacrificing my emotions and mental stability and taking it anyway.

Hahahaha, nope! 50 questions at a time severely presses my mental faculties. 200 is going to murder me.

The only thing I'm stressing about is that it will take 6 hours away from much needed study time for the essays. I feel MUCH more prepared for the MBEs than I do for the CA Essays... it's all a whirlwind of mish-mash at this point. And honestly, like Tanicius, I just don't know how I'm going to sit through it... 200??!! Holy heck.

That's a fair point. I also don't know what the actual advantage of doing it is. Yes, I know I'm going to be weaker on the real thing because of test fatigue. But how will taking one simulation test two and a half weeks out from the real deal make that any different? All it will do is tell me where I'm weak, which I already know from subject-specific practice sessions, and that my timing and fatigue could be better, which I already effing know and can't fix either way.

I might at least post-pone it, myself, cause I'm in the same boat with essays. Maybe I'll do it on the weekend.

[Prime]

Evidence is always exciting. Same with Property. Con Law? Haven't looked at that lately. Torts? The same. Crim/Crim Pro? That's hit or miss.

We shall seeeeee! I signed up for a 'live' test tomorrow just to get out of my current environment and see how things fare without the distractions.

[champ33]

I think the full 200-question test on Wednesday (in NY) could be useful just to experience that number of questions consecutively before the real thing, but does anyone know what they actually do during the following two days' MBE workshops? I can't imagine they go through each and every question and answer because that seems like a giant waste of time.

[Gopackgo2010]

This answer is objectively wrong. This would almost certainly qualify as an excited utterance:

16. (Question ID#4674)
A plaintiff has sued a defendant, alleging that she was run over by a speeding car driven by the defendant. The plaintiff was unconscious after her injury and, accompanied by her husband, was brought to the hospital in an ambulance.
At trial, the plaintiff calls an emergency room physician to testify that when the physician asked the plaintiff's husband if he knew what had happened, the husband, who was upset, replied, "I saw my wife get run over two hours ago by a driver who went right through the intersection without looking."
Is the physician's testimony about the husband's statement admissible?
A. No, because it relates an opinion.
B. No, because it is hearsay not within any exception.
C. Yes, as a statement made for purposes of diagnosis or treatment.
D. Yes, as an excited utterance.
Incorrect: Answer choice B is correct. The statement is offered to prove liability for the accident. As such, it is not a statement made for purposes of diagnosis or treatment. Moreover, the statement was made two hours after the accident, so it is very unlikely that the husband (who was not himself an accident victim) was under a continuous state of excitement between the time of the accident and the time he made the statement. Therefore, the statement is not admissible as an excited utterance, and no other hearsay exception applies. Answer choice A is incorrect. An out-of-court statement is not inadmissible simply because it contains an opinion. Statements of opinion by out-of-court declarants may be admitted if they qualify under a hearsay exception and otherwise satisfy the rules governing opinion testimony of in-court witnesses. This statement, however, is hearsay not within any exception and is inadmissible. Answer choice C is incorrect. The husband's statement is making an accusation of fault for the accident. Such a statement is not pertinent to the diagnosis or treatment of the plaintiff, as is required by the hearsay exception. No other hearsay exception applies, so the statement is inadmissible. As discussed with respect to answer choice B, because the husband made the statement two hours after the accident, it is very unlikely that the husband (who was not himself an accident victim) was under a continuous state of excitement between the time of the accident and the time he made the statement.

Two hours is nothing. It's actually highly likely that the husband would still be under the stress of excitement of having watched his wife get hit by a car. The hypothetical even specifically says that he was upset at the time.

I picked B without first reading the rest of your post/explanation. But it does shed light on a major problem with multiple choice questions that arent 100 percent objective.

I'm more concerned with their explanation of why C is wrong..."The statement is offered to prove liability for the accident. As such, it is not a statement made for purposes of diagnosis or treatment." So what that it's offered to prove liability, guess what we're doing at this trial. Are they really trying to insinuate that 803(4) can only be triggered when you're offering the statement to prove you made statements for medical diagnosis or treatment? Cause that's not how the rule works.

The correct answer is that all of those answers are wrong, since part of the statement can come in under 803(4). Here's the full statement: "I saw my wife get run over two hours ago by a driver who went right through the intersection without looking."

and here's what should be admitted: I saw my wife get run over two hours ago by a driver (in other words, saw wife get run over by a car)

Let's look for some good old Scalia Textual Support:

803(4) Statement Made for Medical Diagnosis or Treatment. A statement that:

(A) is made for — and is reasonably pertinent to — medical diagnosis or treatment; and
--Reasonable to say it was for medical diagnosis or treatment. They're in a hospital, the wife is unconscious, the nurse asked what happened (asked for the cause of her symptoms).

(B) describes medical history; past or present symptoms or sensations; their inception; or their general cause.
--My wife got ran over by a car is the cause of Wife's present symptoms of being unconscious. Her symptom's general inception occurred around 2 or a little more than 2 hours ago.

--The part about the guy running the intersection could also be admissible, but it's a close call. Would it not tell the doctor something important regarding the cause of her injuries to know whether she was hit by a car going 5 miles an hour or one that was speeding through the intersection? Would knowing that info not affect the treatment or diagnosis the Wife will receive from the doctor? Even if this part should be struck, the first part is definitely admissible.

Notes: The person who is injured does not have to be the one that makes the out of court statement to obtain medical diagnosis/treatment. The statement can come from a parent to obtain treatment for their child, and, here, where the statement is by a husband who has personal knowledge to obtain treatment for his wife, who is unconscious. Lastly, the statement does not only have to be made to a physician, but can also be made to a nurse, paramedic, possibly even a firefighter or cop. Either way, 100% counts if its to a nurse or paramedic (they share a business duty).. So ya, that's just awful. What's worse is I end up spending so much time asking similar questions about other problems, reading responses, and writing my own explanations to the questions of others that I know. Lame.

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

I think the full 200-question test on Wednesday (in NY) could be useful just to experience that number of questions consecutively before the real thing, but does anyone know what they actually do during the following two days' MBE workshops? I can't imagine they go through each and every question and answer because that seems like a giant waste of time.

I think the following 2 days are just days where the practice exam is being given at different locations. For example, it's being given in CA on Friday. My understanding is that you just show up at the location, take the test, go home, and input your own answers into the portal. I think Themis is just "administering" it so you can have a quiet place, with timed conditions, if you need it. At least that's how it is here... we don't have a 3 day session that I know of.

[numbertwo88]

I'm more concerned with their explanation of why C is wrong..."The statement is offered to prove liability for the accident. As such, it is not a statement made for purposes of diagnosis or treatment." So what that it's offered to prove liability, guess what we're doing at this trial. Are they really trying to insinuate that 803(4) can only be triggered when you're offering the statement to prove you made statements for medical diagnosis or treatment? Cause that's not how the rule works.

The correct answer is that all of those answers are wrong, since part of the statement can come in under 803(4). Here's the full statement: "I saw my wife get run over two hours ago by a driver who went right through the intersection without looking."

and here's what should be admitted: I saw my wife get run over two hours ago by a driver (in other words, saw wife get run over by a car)

Let's look for some good old Scalia Textual Support:

803(4) Statement Made for Medical Diagnosis or Treatment. A statement that:

(A) is made for — and is reasonably pertinent to — medical diagnosis or treatment; and
--Reasonable to say it was for medical diagnosis or treatment. They're in a hospital, the wife is unconscious, the nurse asked what happened (asked for the cause of her symptoms).

(B) describes medical history; past or present symptoms or sensations; their inception; or their general cause.
--My wife got ran over by a car is the cause of Wife's present symptoms of being unconscious. Her symptom's general inception occurred around 2 or a little more than 2 hours ago.

--The part about the guy running the intersection could also be admissible, but it's a close call. Would it not tell the doctor something important regarding the cause of her injuries to know whether she was hit by a car going 5 miles an hour or one that was speeding through the intersection? Would knowing that info not affect the treatment or diagnosis the Wife will receive from the doctor? Even if this part should be struck, the first part is definitely admissible.

Notes: The person who is injured does not have to be the one that makes the out of court statement to obtain medical diagnosis/treatment. The statement can come from a parent to obtain treatment for their child, and, here, where the statement is by a husband who has personal knowledge to obtain treatment for his wife, who is unconscious. Lastly, the statement does not only have to be made to a physician, but can also be made to a nurse, paramedic, possibly even a firefighter or cop. Either way, 100% counts if its to a nurse or paramedic (they share a business duty).. So ya, that's just awful. What's worse is I end up spending so much time asking similar questions about other problems, reading responses, and writing my own explanations to the questions of others that I know. Lame.

It seems like reasoning as to a response is a good way to study because in essence you're explaining the law as it makes sense to you ... No matter how time consuming. Of course save for answers like this ridiculous example from Themis when it's hard to realistically be wrong when something is clearly off.

[071816]

This CA Trusts handout doesn't follow the lecture for shit and it's PISSING ME THE FUCK OFF

And why does Anindita Dutta have to tell us her name every single time???

[MICritter]

I've been creeping around these parts for a while and finally decided to join/post. While Themis seems to have its benefits over other commercial prep courses, I've felt pretty isolated just sitting here at home. That said, this thread has been of great value to me lately. Forgive the long post, but I've got some catching up to do.

Predicament: I'm in a jurisdiction (MI) that has tested commercial paper once on the past 25 tests. As you know, the outline is 49 pages and there are 17 lectures. There's no way I can justify spending my time on this right now. Has anyone come across a good condensed outline for this topic? Are there any areas that I should focus on based on your perception of the testability of the subject?

As for the MBE questions, I've got to say that there was a moment last week when I just got it. I mean, I'm not completely knocking them out of the park now, but something clicked and my scores went from 50s to 70s that day. I guess I saw enough PQs or something to start recognizing the patterns. Has anyone else experienced this? Could this be the result of me seeing too many Themis questions and just getting used to them (only 55% through the PQs now)? I don't want to get too excited yet...


Also, for those of you who are visual learners, check these flowcharts out. The link leads to inchoate offenses but there are plenty more subjects on the site. You might have to play around with your print settings to get them to work but, once you get it, they'll make a fine wallpaper in your home.

http://brendanconley.com/barexam/crimes ... liability/

[Lasers]

lol, finally done with all lectures and prelim review of all subjects. gonna spend a few hours reviewing the essay topics then spend the next few days just practicing the main MBE subjects.

[Tanicius]

I've been creeping around these parts for a while and finally decided to join/post. While Themis seems to have its benefits over other commercial prep courses, I've felt pretty isolated just sitting here at home. That said, this thread has been of great value to me lately. Forgive the long post, but I've got some catching up to do.

Predicament: I'm in a jurisdiction (MI) that has tested commercial paper once on the past 25 tests. As you know, the outline is 49 pages and there are 17 lectures. There's no way I can justify spending my time on this right now. Has anyone come across a good condensed outline for this topic? Are there any areas that I should focus on based on your perception of the testability of the subject?

As for the MBE questions, I've got to say that there was a moment last week when I just got it. I mean, I'm not completely knocking them out of the park now, but something clicked and my scores went from 50s to 70s that day. I guess I saw enough PQs or something to start recognizing the patterns. Has anyone else experienced this? Could this be the result of me seeing too many Themis questions and just getting used to them (only 55% through the PQs now)? I don't want to get too excited yet...


Also, for those of you who are visual learners, check these flowcharts out. The link leads to inchoate offenses but there are plenty more subjects on the site. You might have to play around with your print settings to get them to work but, once you get it, they'll make a fine wallpaper in your home.

http://brendanconley.com/barexam/crimes ... liability/

Hm. This is making me heavily consider not spending the day studying Commercial Paper. I can't imagine most bar associations care about something so monumentally outdated. (Seriously, who writes "to bearer" on their check, ever?)

Any idea where we can find the breakdown of how often each state has tested certain topics?

[TooManyLoans]

I've been creeping around these parts for a while and finally decided to join/post. While Themis seems to have its benefits over other commercial prep courses, I've felt pretty isolated just sitting here at home. That said, this thread has been of great value to me lately. Forgive the long post, but I've got some catching up to do.

Predicament: I'm in a jurisdiction (MI) that has tested commercial paper once on the past 25 tests. As you know, the outline is 49 pages and there are 17 lectures. There's no way I can justify spending my time on this right now. Has anyone come across a good condensed outline for this topic? Are there any areas that I should focus on based on your perception of the testability of the subject?

As for the MBE questions, I've got to say that there was a moment last week when I just got it. I mean, I'm not completely knocking them out of the park now, but something clicked and my scores went from 50s to 70s that day. I guess I saw enough PQs or something to start recognizing the patterns. Has anyone else experienced this? Could this be the result of me seeing too many Themis questions and just getting used to them (only 55% through the PQs now)? I don't want to get too excited yet...


Also, for those of you who are visual learners, check these flowcharts out. The link leads to inchoate offenses but there are plenty more subjects on the site. You might have to play around with your print settings to get them to work but, once you get it, they'll make a fine wallpaper in your home.

http://brendanconley.com/barexam/crimes ... liability/

This happened to me as well. I was in the high 50s low 60s throughout the individual subject PQ sessions. As soon as I started the mixed PQs I've been hitting 73%-85% each session.

[MICritter]

Hm. This is making me heavily consider not spending the day studying Commercial Paper. I can't imagine most bar associations care about something so monumentally outdated. (Seriously, who writes "to bearer" on their check, ever?)

Any idea where we can find the breakdown of how often each state has tested certain topics?

Michigan makes this information available in the form of "cluster charts." It's a fancy name for a chart that just shows what subjects have been tested since 2001 or something. They've been extremely helpful in prioritizing. I'm not sure if other states offer this information but it would definitely be worth looking.

[chuckbasstard]

Does anyone know what the deal is with obtaining a filled in handout? Folks mentioned being able to get copies earlier this month after dealing with hard to follow lectures, but after requesting one for myself my adviser says we're not allowed to have them . . .

[bport hopeful]

Im in the middle of Property MBE4 and its hard as shit. Making me feel real dumb and like Im def gonna fail.

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

I've been creeping around these parts for a while and finally decided to join/post. While Themis seems to have its benefits over other commercial prep courses, I've felt pretty isolated just sitting here at home. That said, this thread has been of great value to me lately. Forgive the long post, but I've got some catching up to do.

Predicament: I'm in a jurisdiction (MI) that has tested commercial paper once on the past 25 tests. As you know, the outline is 49 pages and there are 17 lectures. There's no way I can justify spending my time on this right now. Has anyone come across a good condensed outline for this topic? Are there any areas that I should focus on based on your perception of the testability of the subject?

As for the MBE questions, I've got to say that there was a moment last week when I just got it. I mean, I'm not completely knocking them out of the park now, but something clicked and my scores went from 50s to 70s that day. I guess I saw enough PQs or something to start recognizing the patterns. Has anyone else experienced this? Could this be the result of me seeing too many Themis questions and just getting used to them (only 55% through the PQs now)? I don't want to get too excited yet...


Also, for those of you who are visual learners, check these flowcharts out. The link leads to inchoate offenses but there are plenty more subjects on the site. You might have to play around with your print settings to get them to work but, once you get it, they'll make a fine wallpaper in your home.

http://brendanconley.com/barexam/crimes ... liability/

Thanks for posting the link with the charts! They're great! I'm a kinesthetic learner, so the more variety in learning, the better!

[j1987]

Does anyone know what the deal is with obtaining a filled in handout? Folks mentioned being able to get copies earlier this month after dealing with hard to follow lectures, but after requesting one for myself my adviser says we're not allowed to have them . . .

I requested one for Secured Transactions because the lecturer was not at all clear as to what went in each blank. My advisor emailed me back telling me that it's against Themis' policy and philosophy, but that she would make an exception for me just "this once" as long as I promised to follow along and pay attention. The kicker was I had already watched the lectures and filled in the handout to the best of my ability - there were just a few blanks that I couldn't figure out at all so I asked for the filled in handout to see what I had missed. So I guess they technically aren't allowed to give out the filled in handouts because it messes with our "memory retention." I just emailed my advisor and asked. Maybe you could try reaching out to someone else at Themis?

[jigglypuffdreams]

I've been creeping around these parts for a while and finally decided to join/post. While Themis seems to have its benefits over other commercial prep courses, I've felt pretty isolated just sitting here at home. That said, this thread has been of great value to me lately. Forgive the long post, but I've got some catching up to do.

Predicament: I'm in a jurisdiction (MI) that has tested commercial paper once on the past 25 tests. As you know, the outline is 49 pages and there are 17 lectures. There's no way I can justify spending my time on this right now. Has anyone come across a good condensed outline for this topic? Are there any areas that I should focus on based on your perception of the testability of the subject?

As for the MBE questions, I've got to say that there was a moment last week when I just got it. I mean, I'm not completely knocking them out of the park now, but something clicked and my scores went from 50s to 70s that day. I guess I saw enough PQs or something to start recognizing the patterns. Has anyone else experienced this? Could this be the result of me seeing too many Themis questions and just getting used to them (only 55% through the PQs now)? I don't want to get too excited yet...


Also, for those of you who are visual learners, check these flowcharts out. The link leads to inchoate offenses but there are plenty more subjects on the site. You might have to play around with your print settings to get them to work but, once you get it, they'll make a fine wallpaper in your home.

http://brendanconley.com/barexam/crimes ... liability/

Yeah, I'm also in Michigan so I'm in your boat. I just got through most of "Michigan Bar Exam Essay Deconstruction" which supposedly has all the essay questions asked in the past 10 years. Only one commercial paper question and two secured transaction question in the whole book. The commercial paper videos are pretty short, but I definitely haven't been memorizing or reviewing it as hard as everything else. Maybe I'll focus on a basic "this is a negotiable instrument question" type answer I can spit out if it comes up.