July 2017 NY Bar Hangout Thread - Results Are Here!!! Forum

[verejacob]

Any suggestion/advise is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Ariboohowyoudo, verejacob, and sugrl12 pretty much said what I would regarding to memorization, and MBE studying. No need to repeat

A note on the model NCBE answers: they are roughly between 1000 and 1400 words. They are also written by practicing attorneys, who have notes, with unlimited time. So right there, the model answers are reflective of two things you don't have on the exam: extra time and available references. With 30 minutes per essay and between 3-6 sub-parts per question, you're realistically spending only 15-20 minutes actually typing (presuming that nothing goes wrong AND you're on point with what to write). Unless you type upwards of 50-60 WPM (the average person types 35-40 WPM), you're not producing such answers if you answer all 6 questions. Handwriting means even less words.

Also, anybody who's done/worked on real-world legal writing (I've had my fair share, up to state supreme court briefs) knows that you can't produce anything of quality under such conditions. Thankfully, graders know this and their checklists reflect that. Some states require their board of law examiners to release the top MEE answers, and you'll see the vast difference between them and the model NCBE ones. Some of them are quite minimal - the 2 essays I did well on were organized and minimal (I doubt they were more than 600 words). For example, you can have a rough outline per answer, and flesh out that outline and...you're done. Just like that.

Try to find out how fast you type. If you're hand-writing, see how long it takes to answer a question. You need to know what you're capable of first, to make improvements. Part of game planning is knowing how you'll do for test day; that comes with planning and repetition. It also takes away some (but not all) of the stress. You'll might even be able to come up with a contingency plan should things go wrong.

Once I learned the above, it was like night and day. Do as you plan and you'll be celebrating in April.

My $.02

Thanks a ton, b290, airboohowyoudo, sugr12 and aa22 for all your encouragement, useful tips and advise! After hearing from all of you, it seems that doing Adaptibar or Seperac could be overkill, especially as I have access to Barbri, and have also purchased Emanuel MBE S&T and Critical Pass (before July, all I used was Barbri).

For MEE subjects, I'll probably be using JD Advising's One Sheets (hope they get their predictions spot on for Feb 2018 too), unless of course, someone manages to convince me that SmartBarPrep or Lean Sheets or Studicata are far better supplemental resources. I'll also be checking out NCBE's model MEE answers.

I was crushed after I found out I did not pass this time and felt like disappearing off the face of Earth especially after the announcement that July 2017 witnessed the highest pass rates . Thanks to you all, I now see light at the end of the tunnel. Passing the NY bar has a special meaning for me especially, as I graduated from law school more than a decade ago.

I won't leave anything to chances this time and will make sure to prepare well for both MBE and MEE/MPT (for July, I had focused primarily on MBE subjects and the move backfired). The risk is simply not worth taking.

Oh, almost forgot to ask - what format did you all use for MEE? CIRAC, CRAC or IRAC? I used CIRAC but it didn't work out for me that well. Does NCBE/NYSBOLE recommend/prefer any particular format for answering MEE?

[L_William_W]

Congratulations to those who passed. I missed by 10 points. MBE 135, MEE/MPT - 121. Seems I was underprepared for MEE/MPT. Will retake Feb 2018 exam. I have access to Barbri and I have purchased Emanuel MBE S&T and Critical Pass.

My questions to those who passed -
1. Did anyone use Adaptibar? If I'm using Emanuel MBE S&T to improve my MBE, will it be overkill to use Adaptibar too?
2. Did anyone use Serapac UBE Master? Was it useful? Is it overwhelming/overkill if I use Serapac in addition to Barbri, Emanuel and Critical Pass?
3. Did anyone use ELS' (JD Advising) MBE and MEE services viz. MBE One Sheets, MBE Guides and MEE One Sheets? Were these useful?
4. What are the best resources to learn the black letter law? Conviser? Lean Sheets? Any other suggestions?

And my question to those who passed and especially did well in MEE/MPT -
1. What gameplan/strategy did you follow that helped you ace MEE/MPT?

Any suggestion/advise is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Adaptibar is shit. Instead, use Strategies and Tactics, Strategies and Tactics Finz, and every Kaplan book you can get your hands on (BUY IT NEW).
Also, purchase Emanuel bootcamp outlines. They give you step-by-step instructions on how to approach MBE questions.
When I first took the bar, my MBE was a pathetic 118.6. When I took it in July, my MBE was a 149.3

Separac is unnecessary. Buy a used Barbri book on Amazon and google some bar exam outlines. Use them to make YOUR OWN outlines.

Lean Sheets and One sheets are useless. Don't waste your money

My MPT was shitty- I totally fucked up on the second MPT. Fortunately, my MBE carried me (my overall UBE was 278).

[gdi]

For me, the best bar review course is Seperac because of his passion, dedication and useful tips.

[b290]

what format did you all use for MEE? CIRAC, CRAC or IRAC? I used CIRAC but it didn't work out for me that well. Does NCBE/NYSBOLE recommend/prefer any particular format for answering MEE?

No problem! If you have any other questions, just PM me or find me in the Feb 2018 NY Bar thread

I have the One Sheets, and I’ll be using them again; I loved . But the others are fine too. I used Adaptibar because I liked the idea of answering questions anywhere. Emanuel’s would be just as good. Once you know what works for you, and what you need, get the program/supplement tailored for that.

You need to study ALL subjects, as you never know when a particular one may be your saving grace on Exam Day. While you can easily narrow down what to study in depth to 8-10 subjects and probably be ok, you don’t want to take that chance - esp when at least 2 essays are MEE subjects.

For format, it was usually IRAC/CRAC for me. Anything else I found to be superfluous; time is not your friend for this exam. The NCBE doesn’t “recommend” a particular format, but virtually everybody recommends IRAC, and with it being standard from law school, that’s a safe bet.

Also, if you use headings and delineate your sections (the Q pretty much tells you what to write), you’ve already identified the “issues” and it becomes a game of “how many “RACs” you can pull off. You will save yourself time, which is golden.

If the above sounds simple, it is. Don’t feel stupid though, the simplest things sometimes are also the hardest

My $.02

[Scholarstika]

Just out of pure curiosity, where do out-of-state applicants get sworn? Buffalo or Albany, I imagine?

[TEIAM]

Just out of pure curiosity, where do out-of-state applicants get sworn? Buffalo or Albany, I imagine?

Albany

[rom10]

is it true that we cannot be sworn before 6/18/18 unless we submitted the whole package before 10/2/17? What a nonsense... Would there be any way to expedite the procedure and be sworn earlier?

To be fair, most state bar applications require that you fill out CoF concurrently with your exam app. Also, the Second Department (possibly the First too, not sure with the Fourth) sends you emails not long after the exam to get your stuff in - I got them due to my previous address being in the 2nd. A CoF deadline of about 2 months after the exam is pretty reasonable.

Agreed that it's nonsense to make you wait until June 2018 though. In some states, you can literally walk up to a courthouse after your results, have one of the present attorneys as a sponsor for being motioned (sworn-in), and practice on-the-spot. I'd call.

Shoot, I thought I would fail for sure and there would be no point gathering docs... Am I the only one who procrastinated? Any other passers in my shoes now?
*add: I found in the instruction package that the admission ceremony in the Second Department is conducted generally on a monthly basis. The 10/2/2017 deadline applies to another department, it seems.

Right there with you - scrambling now!

[musername]

I didn't make any steps to gather my admission documents because i was sure I failed! Good surprise though...

Applying for admission in NY- 2nd Dept.

For the employment affidavits-- what happens if the person who was your supervisor no longer works for said organization? Can they still fill it out for you if they work elsewhere?

[musername]

Congratulations to those who passed. I missed by 10 points. MBE 135, MEE/MPT - 121. Seems I was underprepared for MEE/MPT. Will retake Feb 2018 exam. I have access to Barbri and I have purchased Emanuel MBE S&T and Critical Pass.

My questions to those who passed -
1. Did anyone use Adaptibar? If I'm using Emanuel MBE S&T to improve my MBE, will it be overkill to use Adaptibar too?
2. Did anyone use Serapac UBE Master? Was it useful? Is it overwhelming/overkill if I use Serapac in addition to Barbri, Emanuel and Critical Pass?
3. Did anyone use ELS' (JD Advising) MBE and MEE services viz. MBE One Sheets, MBE Guides and MEE One Sheets? Were these useful?
4. What are the best resources to learn the black letter law? Conviser? Lean Sheets? Any other suggestions?

And my question to those who passed and especially did well in MEE/MPT -
1. What gameplan/strategy did you follow that helped you ace MEE/MPT?

Any suggestion/advise is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Adaptibar is shit. Instead, use Strategies and Tactics, Strategies and Tactics Finz, and every Kaplan book you can get your hands on (BUY IT NEW).
Also, purchase Emanuel bootcamp outlines. They give you step-by-step instructions on how to approach MBE questions.
When I first took the bar, my MBE was a pathetic 118.6. When I took it in July, my MBE was a 149.3

Separac is unnecessary. Buy a used Barbri book on Amazon and google some bar exam outlines. Use them to make YOUR OWN outlines.

Lean Sheets and One sheets are useless. Don't waste your money

My MPT was shitty- I totally fucked up on the second MPT. Fortunately, my MBE carried me (my overall UBE was 278).

Essentially it doesn't matter how you pass as long as you pass! My overall UBE was 277 but with a 128 MBE lol
I barely studied essays and did over 2000 MBE questions, go figure!

[BlairLawdorf]

Had to stay off here this time around because anxiety became unreal- BUT thrilled to say I PASSED! Third time was a charm. Went up 35 points from Feb UBE with Pieper bar course. Congrats to all who passed! Those who didn’t- don’t give up. I’m living proof you’ll get there.

MBE: 139.7
UBE: 288

[polkadot12]

I also wanted to share my story.

In July 16, I got a 256, with an MBE of 119.

Feb 17, I got a 256 again, with an MBE of 130.

Up to then, I used Kaplan.
For the third, I decided to use Marino.
I have never cried as much as I did with marino. They gave me the wrong law, they were unsupportive, and refused to help me. Two weeks into the July 17 prep, I went back to Kaplan.

July 17, I passed with a score of 304. MBE was 141.2. Kaplan was the organized, supportive place I needed.
No more bars!

[Damage Over Time]

I didn't make any steps to gather my admission documents because i was sure I failed! Good surprise though...

Applying for admission in NY- 2nd Dept.

For the employment affidavits-- what happens if the person who was your supervisor no longer works for said organization? Can they still fill it out for you if they work elsewhere?

When that happened to me, I just found the next closest person to the supervisor role that still worked at the org.

Can't hurt to call tho.

[IwiLLdoIt]

Failed by 8 points. Was 100% expected but had hoped it wouldn't be that close to feel that extra sting. Living at home now and really need to leave, so trying to figure out how to come to terms with another 7+ months here. Overcame a lot of adversity in the 3 years of law school, never want/wanted to be a lawyer (pushed into law school and away from other paths) and was excited to close the door on this chapter, be financially independent and pursue actual dreams asap. Taking the day to feel the pain but just have to start fresh tomorrow. Critical pass is staring at me from across my bed on my desk so I guess it was destiny.

I did 90% of barbri, 1500+ adaptibar, and critical pass. Going to check out emanuels this time, buy the tests from NCBE, and drop adaptibar (can't afford it again). Any other tips are greatly appreciated.

Congrats to all who passed!!!

To anyone that failed the UBE exam, if you send me your scores, I will send you a 12 page score report like the sample below:
http://seperac.com/pdf/Score%20Analysis%20UBE%20F17.pdf

The score report is free. I regard it as a quid pro quo - the reports can help you on your next attempt and the data helps me learn more about the exam. For example, I can’t make the online calculators without a lot of scores because I need at least 100 scores to figure out the scales. I explain everything here:
http://www.seperac.com/index.php#RETAKERS

The score report will tell you exactly where you did well verus where you did poorly. For example, the above examinee needed a 266 to pass the February 2017 NY bar exam but scored a 232. His WORST exam item (based on how many UBE points away from passing) was MBE: Constitutional Law where the examinee was -7.9 UBE points away from passing. The next WORST exam item was MBE: Torts where the examinee was -6.5 UBE points away from passing. His next WORST exam item was MPT2: Brief (Facts/Conclusion) where the examinee was -4.8 UBE points away from passing. In contrast, the examinee was 1.8 UBE points above passing with MBE: Evidence.

The score report will also tell you your % correct on the MBE subjects. For example, in the above sample, the examinee had a %tile for Civil Procedure of 29.0, meaning the examinee scored better than only 29.0% of examinees nationwide on the 25 graded Civil Procedure MBE questions (out of about 23,000 February 2017 examinees). What these percentiles don't tell you are your raw scores (e.g. that you answered 14/25 of the Civil Procedure MBE questions correctly, meaning 56% correct for Civil Procedure). With this information, you can correlate your exam MBE scores to your practice MBE scores (e.g. if you were getting 70% correct on Civil Procedure questions in practice but 56% correct on the exam, you should find a better source of Civil Procedure MBE practice questions).

If you complete my Retaker Advice form, I will also give you my advice:
http://www.seperac.com/scoreform.php

All information submitted is always treated confidentially. The more information you give me, the better advice I can give you about what to do on your next attempt. I have looked at many failing examinee scores and tracked their outcomes so I can probably give you some useful advice.

Sent you my scores. How long is the turnaround time?

[jingosaur]

What happens if one of your supervisors just never responds?

[Shadowcrystal]

is it true that we cannot be sworn before 6/18/18 unless we submitted the whole package before 10/2/17? What a nonsense... Would there be any way to expedite the procedure and be sworn earlier?

To be fair, most state bar applications require that you fill out CoF concurrently with your exam app. Also, the Second Department (possibly the First too, not sure with the Fourth) sends you emails not long after the exam to get your stuff in - I got them due to my previous address being in the 2nd. A CoF deadline of about 2 months after the exam is pretty reasonable.

Agreed that it's nonsense to make you wait until June 2018 though. In some states, you can literally walk up to a courthouse after your results, have one of the present attorneys as a sponsor for being motioned (sworn-in), and practice on-the-spot. I'd call.

Shoot, I thought I would fail for sure and there would be no point gathering docs... Am I the only one who procrastinated? Any other passers in my shoes now?
*add: I found in the instruction package that the admission ceremony in the Second Department is conducted generally on a monthly basis. The 10/2/2017 deadline applies to another department, it seems.

Right there with you - scrambling now!

Lol don’t worry I am doing the same thing. It’s even worse for me because I’m abroad and I have to get the documents notarized at the embassy. It’s the most inconvenient thing ever.

[Siriusendeavor]

is it true that we cannot be sworn before 6/18/18 unless we submitted the whole package before 10/2/17? What a nonsense... Would there be any way to expedite the procedure and be sworn earlier?

To be fair, most state bar applications require that you fill out CoF concurrently with your exam app. Also, the Second Department (possibly the First too, not sure with the Fourth) sends you emails not long after the exam to get your stuff in - I got them due to my previous address being in the 2nd. A CoF deadline of about 2 months after the exam is pretty reasonable.

Agreed that it's nonsense to make you wait until June 2018 though. In some states, you can literally walk up to a courthouse after your results, have one of the present attorneys as a sponsor for being motioned (sworn-in), and practice on-the-spot. I'd call.

Shoot, I thought I would fail for sure and there would be no point gathering docs... Am I the only one who procrastinated? Any other passers in my shoes now?
*add: I found in the instruction package that the admission ceremony in the Second Department is conducted generally on a monthly basis. The 10/2/2017 deadline applies to another department, it seems.

Right there with you - scrambling now!

Lol don’t worry I am doing the same thing. It’s even worse for me because I’m abroad and I have to get the documents notarized at the embassy. It’s the most inconvenient thing ever.

I'm in the same boat - it's a bit overwhelming. Do you have employers abroad, and if so, do they have to go to the embassy to notarize the forms?

[Damage Over Time]

What happens if one of your supervisors just never responds?

Find someone that could conceivably be considered a supervisor from the same place / time period and ask them to sign. If this doesn't work, try to get someone in an administrative role to sign. If it's like a solo practitioner who has disappeared, I have no idea.

[Damage Over Time]

edit: double post

[Blackberie]

I'm walking around in a fog the last couple of days. This sucks.

I took Feb 2017 bar for the first time - got a 233. I didn't use a course at all (didn't have the money). I used only Adaptibar.

Second time around in July 2017 I bought Themis. My score went up to 254. I went up to 139 scaled on my essays but my MBE stayed the same at 115. I'm trying to figure out what to do. My MBE was the same the first and second time despite doing almost 2k MBE questions.

Has anyone ever heard of Law Tutors.net? I'm contemplating using them. (Calling my bank asking for credit increase)

Anyone have any suggestions on what will help improve MBE? Some of my MEE's were still in the mid 40's and I thought I did well on them - I feel like I need to learn HOW to write these essays better and HOW to take the MBE's. Any insight would be appreciated...

[JoeSeperac]

Sent you my scores. How long is the turnaround time?

I hope to send out J17 score reports by Monday. The biggest issue is getting enough scores so I can figure out the MBE subscores (there are about 20 different permutations for each MBE subject so I need to get a couple hundred scores to cover most of the permutations, especially from high-scoring examinees). Accordingly, if anyone has failed the exam and would like to help out (and get a free breakdown of their scores in exchange), you can do the following:

You can email me your UBE score report and I will send you a 9-page score analysis. My email is joe@seperac.com. A sample of the F17 report is here:
http://seperac.com/pdf/Score%20Analysis%20UBE%20F17.pdf

Feel free to redact your name/etc if you are worried about giving me any personal info. I don't even care if you use a dummy email - I just need an email to email the report back to you.

If you don't want to email me your score report, you can simply enter the info in an online form here:
http://seperac.com/scoreform.php

If you complete the Primary Information and UBE Grading Sheet Information sections, I will send you the 9 page score report. If you also fill out the other sections, you will receive a 12 page score report that contains advice from similarly situated examinees who failed last July and then passed in F17.

If you are in a non-UBE state (e.g. California), while I can't send you a score report, I can give you a breakdown of your MBE subscores:
http://seperac.com/subscoreform.php

I've been doing these reports for almost 10 years and you honestly won't get a better breakdown of your scores from anywhere else - my score report is light-years beyond what any bar review would give you. The reason score reports and essays are released by NY BOLE is so examinees can identify deficiencies in their performance. In a 1995 bill to bill to amend the Judiciary Law, the bill stated that it is in New York State's "best interest to insure that all bar applicants are given an equal opportunity to pass the NYS Bar Examination. Disclosure of past testing materials and applicant examinations allow prospective attorneys to become aware of testing subject matter and methodology so that otherwise qualified attorneys are not defeated in their attempts to pass the bar examination." A copy of the bill is here:
http://seperac.com/pdf/NYBOLE-Bill_To_A ... w-1995.pdf

Failing examinees who don't make an effort to understand the methodologies behind the bar exam are only hurting themselves.

[Toubro]

Wait, just curious, how is anyone supposed to know their MBE subscores? Like % right in Torts, for example?

[TEIAM]

Wait, just curious, how is anyone supposed to know their MBE subscores? Like % right in Torts, for example?

It's my understanding that those who do not pass will get a breakdown of all their scores.

[JoeSeperac]

Wait, just curious, how is anyone supposed to know their MBE subscores? Like % right in Torts, for example?

Some failing reports (e.g. NY, Washington, Missouri) contain the MBE subscore percentiles. This tells you how you did compared to examinees nationally. Once I receive enough scoresheets to cover the majority of permutations, I can figure out each examinee's % correct for each MBE subject. For example, right now I have the following for Civ Pro MBE scores:

0.2 6
1.4 8
3.1 9
5.9 10
10.5 12
16.7 13
25.1 14
35.2 15
46.4 16
58.3 17
69.9 18
80.1 20

This means if your Civ Pro %tile was 46.4, you probably got 16/25 Civ Pro MBE questions correct (64% correct). With this % correct, you can compare how you did in practice versus the actual exam. For example if you were getting 40% correct on Civ Pro MBE practice questions but got 64% on the MBE, your Civ Pro outline/study materials were probably more helpful to your Civ Pro MBE score than the Civ Pro MBE practice questions you used, and so you should focus on those Civ Pro outlines/study materials on your next attempt and replace the Civ Pro MBE practice questions where you scored 40% correct with a more reflective source of Civ Pro MBE practice questions. The stats aren't earth-shattering but they can definitely help you fine-tune your studies after you do a post-mortem of your failing attempt.

By the way, congrats on your MBE score which was insanely high. Based on your scaled MBE score of 187, your estimated raw MBE score was about 170/175 correct. This is based on the 2013 New York MBE raw/scaled conversion (which is the most recent time a July MBE raw/scaled conversion was released by a state). This means you answered about 97% of the graded MBE questions correctly.

If you don't mind, can you briefly explain how you studied for the MBE (how long, what percentage of your overall study time, what questions you used, how many did you answer overall, and your overall % correct). I ask this to see if there is any commonality in study routines (such as # of practice questions). Also, if you had to attribute your passing to just one thing, what would that be?

[barrelofmonkeys]

Wait, just curious, how is anyone supposed to know their MBE subscores? Like % right in Torts, for example?

...
By the way, congrats on your MBE score which was insanely high. Based on your scaled MBE score of 187, your estimated raw MBE score was about 170/175 correct. This is based on the 2013 New York MBE raw/scaled conversion (which is the most recent time a July MBE raw/scaled conversion was released by a state). This means you answered about 97% of the graded MBE questions correctly....

LOL
eta: like I cannot even begin to comprehend

[Toubro]

Wait, just curious, how is anyone supposed to know their MBE subscores? Like % right in Torts, for example?

By the way, congrats on your MBE score which was insanely high. Based on your scaled MBE score of 187, your estimated raw MBE score was about 170/175 correct. This is based on the 2013 New York MBE raw/scaled conversion (which is the most recent time a July MBE raw/scaled conversion was released by a state). This means you answered about 97% of the graded MBE questions correctly.

If you don't mind, can you briefly explain how you studied for the MBE (how long, what percentage of your overall study time, what questions you used, how many did you answer overall, and your overall % correct). I ask this to see if there is any commonality in study routines (such as # of practice questions). Also, if you had to attribute your passing to just one thing, what would that be?

Those statistics are definitely above my pay grade, but I can order a UBE score report and send it to you if it would help in your data gathering.

And thanks, I was happy with my score for like 2 hours before realizing that I was probably really inefficient with my time and could have enjoyed my summer more haha.

Happy to share how I studied for the MBE though. I did all of the questions that Barbri assigned -- including the daily MPQ sets, the midterm, the refresher, and (I think) also the extra sets they had on their website. I think this totaled to about 1200 "fake" MBE questions. With respect to the real questions, I did the Emanuel book (I think he says there are about ~600 real questions in there). Also, I did the OPEs NCBE released to the extent not covered in the Emanuel book. Lastly, in my down time, I'd take a crack at the three full-length MBEs NCBE published on the website. Those were 200 questions each, also totaling 600. That last resource was a little dubious because obviously the law has changed since then, as has their editorial style.

In each case and to the extent available, I also read the answer explanations for each answer choice for all questions regardless of whether I got it right or not, and I would hate myself for wasting hours reading stuff I already knew but every now and then I would discover that I got a question right for the wrong reason.

All of this excessive MBE prep was certainly not without prejudice to my MEE/MPT scores, but I knew that I'd rather get the MBE down than struggle through the minutiae of Sec Trans or Will/Trusts.