Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam Forum

[Evaly]

Dumb question time (are we allowed to ask dumb questions?):

I understand Pereira and Van Camp. However, when is a business NOT SP? Is it when the Spouses form the business together as partners? Then, you would use the reverse formulas? is that right?

My understanding is that a business is NOT SP if 1) like you said, the spouses form a business together during marriage, and 2) even if only 1 spouse forms a business, as long as it is during marriage, it is probably presumed CP (community property presumption). You use the reverse formulas when the business is CP and continues to operate after the parties are separated but before divorce because you need to back out the SP portion, the portion during separation, from the overall value of the business.

Edit 1: I am saying this for CA community property. I have no idea if you are talking about another state.

[klbisho4]

Celebrated all weekend and playing catch up, so just did my first essay for Themis. It was supposed to be a FL Con Law essay and when I read it, it seemed to be solely a property question. Caught some key words in it though and realized it was solely about FL homestead laws. They'll probly destroy me when they grade it, but I was able to identify everything they were looking for and analyze it, I just wasn't as organized as their model. I need to read more essays though to issue spot, because taking 5-6 minutes to figure out what I was writing about took some precious time away.

[WonkyPanda]

Dumb question time (are we allowed to ask dumb questions?):

I understand Pereira and Van Camp. However, when is a business NOT SP? Is it when the Spouses form the business together as partners? Then, you would use the reverse formulas? is that right?

My understanding is that a business is NOT SP if 1) like you said, the spouses form a business together during marriage, and 2) even if only 1 spouse forms a business, as long as it is during marriage, it is probably presumed CP (community property presumption). You use the reverse formulas when the business is CP and continues to operate after the parties are separated but before divorce because you need to back out the SP portion, the portion during separation, from the overall value of the business.

Edit 1: I am saying this for CA community property. I have no idea if you are talking about another state.

Yes, CA

I see, okay that makes sense now. I couldn't find that info explicitly mentioned. Thanks!

[nowinGA]

Celebrated all weekend and playing catch up, so just did my first essay for Themis. It was supposed to be a FL Con Law essay and when I read it, it seemed to be solely a property question. Caught some key words in it though and realized it was solely about FL homestead laws. They'll probly destroy me when they grade it, but I was able to identify everything they were looking for and analyze it, I just wasn't as organized as their model. I need to read more essays though to issue spot, because taking 5-6 minutes to figure out what I was writing about took some precious time away.

You did a "graded" essay already? Perhaps you are ahead of me...but from what I understand, the first essays we do are just for practice and are not graded. For example, my first graded essay is not until June 6th on the directed study plan.

Just verifying that I am correct about not all of them being graded, because I totally phoned in my first one to get familiar with how it even worked on the computer, the format, etc.

[puttycake]

Celebrated all weekend and playing catch up, so just did my first essay for Themis. It was supposed to be a FL Con Law essay and when I read it, it seemed to be solely a property question. Caught some key words in it though and realized it was solely about FL homestead laws. They'll probly destroy me when they grade it, but I was able to identify everything they were looking for and analyze it, I just wasn't as organized as their model. I need to read more essays though to issue spot, because taking 5-6 minutes to figure out what I was writing about took some precious time away.

You did a "graded" essay already? Perhaps you are ahead of me...but from what I understand, the first essays we do are just for practice and are not graded. For example, my first graded essay is not until June 6th on the directed study plan.

Just verifying that I am correct about not all of them being graded, because I totally phoned in my first one to get familiar with how it even worked on the computer, the format, etc.

I did a graded essay yesterday. It was my first one. I'd had three or four other essays already. So I don't think the first essay would be a graded one.

[Kiwi917]

Celebrated all weekend and playing catch up, so just did my first essay for Themis. It was supposed to be a FL Con Law essay and when I read it, it seemed to be solely a property question. Caught some key words in it though and realized it was solely about FL homestead laws. They'll probly destroy me when they grade it, but I was able to identify everything they were looking for and analyze it, I just wasn't as organized as their model. I need to read more essays though to issue spot, because taking 5-6 minutes to figure out what I was writing about took some precious time away.

You did a "graded" essay already? Perhaps you are ahead of me...but from what I understand, the first essays we do are just for practice and are not graded. For example, my first graded essay is not until June 6th on the directed study plan.

Just verifying that I am correct about not all of them being graded, because I totally phoned in my first one to get familiar with how it even worked on the computer, the format, etc.

I did a graded essay yesterday. It was my first one. I'd had three or four other essays already. So I don't think the first essay would be a graded one.

This was the same for me - 4 practice essays and then the 5th was graded. Maybe the difference is between states that had a suggested start date of May 21st compared with those starting on the 27th (I'm taking CA and started on the 21st).

[TIMEATELL]

Hi everyone, I'm using Themis as well. I'll be checking in from time to time to answer (or post) questions. Btw, I created the following bar prep motivation community for those of us who are studying from home: https://plus.google.com/communities/103 ... 9906432868. Good luck to everyone. - Wortham

[nowinGA]

OK, so for those of you who have done graded ones...I have a dumb question. (I believe dumb questions are fabulous)

Did you write them completely without notes or outlines? Does Themis suggest that you do that from jump? Obviously we will have to on test day...but I definitely haven't memorized all of these rules, elements, etc., yet. (Especially in the subjects where I didn't take the class in school.) Is the goal of the practice essays to test the material, or or our ability to write an appropriately structured/substantive essay?

[071816]

When you guys read the outlines are you reading the hard copy from the books or the ones online? I can't decide which I prefer...

[Tanicius]

When you guys read the outlines are you reading the hard copy from the books or the ones online? I can't decide which I prefer...

I read on physical paper whenever possible. Easier to outline and write notes in the margin (even if I almost never review the outline itself, it still helps to take a more interactive role in the reading), and there are just too many distractions for me on the computer (Ex. A: the fact that I am typing this post on TLS right now).

[071816]

When you guys read the outlines are you reading the hard copy from the books or the ones online? I can't decide which I prefer...

I read on physical paper whenever possible. Easier to outline and write notes in the margin (even if I almost never review the outline itself, it still helps to take a more interactive role in the reading), and there are just too many distractions for me on the computer (Ex. A: the fact that I am typing this post on TLS right now).

haha very good points. In fact, I'm gonna go take a look at the hard copy version instead and get the fuck off THE INTERNETS.

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

Celebrated all weekend and playing catch up, so just did my first essay for Themis. It was supposed to be a FL Con Law essay and when I read it, it seemed to be solely a property question. Caught some key words in it though and realized it was solely about FL homestead laws. They'll probly destroy me when they grade it, but I was able to identify everything they were looking for and analyze it, I just wasn't as organized as their model. I need to read more essays though to issue spot, because taking 5-6 minutes to figure out what I was writing about took some precious time away.

You did a "graded" essay already? Perhaps you are ahead of me...but from what I understand, the first essays we do are just for practice and are not graded. For example, my first graded essay is not until June 6th on the directed study plan.

Just verifying that I am correct about not all of them being graded, because I totally phoned in my first one to get familiar with how it even worked on the computer, the format, etc.

I'm doing my first graded essay today for Con Law (California) - and I'm doing it open book, open notes, as a reference if I get stuck - because if I waited until I thought I was really ready, I'd never do it. Once you know you have your book and notes nearby, it's not as daunting. There will be plenty of opportunities to do practice essays closed book in the next 8 weeks... Themis didn't give me any practice essays prior to the graded one. I guess we're all on different schedules

[puttycake]

OK, so for those of you who have done graded ones...I have a dumb question. (I believe dumb questions are fabulous)

Did you write them completely without notes or outlines? Does Themis suggest that you do that from jump? Obviously we will have to on test day...but I definitely haven't memorized all of these rules, elements, etc., yet. (Especially in the subjects where I didn't take the class in school.) Is the goal of the practice essays to test the material, or or our ability to write an appropriately structured/substantive essay?

I don't think that's a dumb question at all. Try harder!

I've only done a ConLaw graded essay. What I did was outline it completely, write at least a rough draft, then checked my notes to see if I needed to fix anything in the wording or in the argument.

I think Themis suggests you use the notes, then gradually wean yourself off them. For ConLaw and Real Property, I feel somewhat comfortable getting the gist right without the notes, but if they handed me, say, a contracts essay I would be nose deep in those notes before I could even begin to get an outline! (I suck at contracts.)

[klbisho4]

Sorry, should've been more specific... not graded. It was a "practice" essay. But my school has a program we submit it to and they grade/critique it, so it'll get graded by them. But idk if i'll listen to Themis when it comes to essays. My school has me using my outlines to help write essays up until mid June, so i'll probly use outlines on all of them until then. These PQ's are still bothering me, because I feel they aren't as clear as the real MBE questions I've done, and ask questions about things the MBE doesn't even test on. Oh well... keep on grinding guys.

[071816]

80 PAGE CON LAW OUTLINE MAKES ME WANT TO KILL SELF

[Lasers]

80 PAGE CON LAW OUTLINE MAKES ME WANT TO KILL SELF

Srsly wtf.

Also re: the graded con law essay...there's no way I can do it without referring to the outline for the specific rule statements. I have the broad strokes down, but none of the elements.

[Tanicius]

80 PAGE CON LAW OUTLINE MAKES ME WANT TO KILL SELF

Srsly wtf.

Also re: the graded con law essay...there's no way I can do it without referring to the outline for the specific rule statements. I have the broad strokes down, but none of the elements.

I'm actually kind of shocked at the level of detail the exam expects from us. It's such a joke - serves absolutely no competency threshold and is meant purely to haze us and limit the legal market.

[Evaly]

When you guys read the outlines are you reading the hard copy from the books or the ones online? I can't decide which I prefer...

I do everything on an iPad. When I read the big outlines I just do some highlighting and underlying, which is ok (not great) in iBook. The minimal amount of action keeps me focused.

For filling out the lecture handout I do it through a pdf editor called Goodreader. It allows me to handwrite the answer into the blanks, highlight, underline, add notes in the margin. I hate carrying around books and notes but still want the tactile experience of note taking to help with memorization.

[Genuine4ps]

80 PAGE CON LAW OUTLINE MAKES ME WANT TO KILL SELF

Srsly wtf.

Also re: the graded con law essay...there's no way I can do it without referring to the outline for the specific rule statements. I have the broad strokes down, but none of the elements.

I'm actually kind of shocked at the level of detail the exam expects from us. It's such a joke - serves absolutely no competency threshold and is meant purely to haze us and limit the legal market.

+1

The bar made sense when people without JDs could enter the profession. It seems like they just kept it to make money off us and slow the flood of lawyers. Perhaps I'm pissed that I have to take it.

[Tanicius]

80 PAGE CON LAW OUTLINE MAKES ME WANT TO KILL SELF

Srsly wtf.

Also re: the graded con law essay...there's no way I can do it without referring to the outline for the specific rule statements. I have the broad strokes down, but none of the elements.

I'm actually kind of shocked at the level of detail the exam expects from us. It's such a joke - serves absolutely no competency threshold and is meant purely to haze us and limit the legal market.

+1

The bar made sense when people without JDs could enter the profession. It seems like they just kept it to make money off us and slow the flood of lawyers. Perhaps I'm pissed that I have to take it.

I would be perfectly happy with a week-long open book exam that was three times as hard to pass. It would more accurately reflect actual lawyer skills. The bar associations of every state have got to know that memorization has literally nothing to do with real practice today...

[klbisho4]

I'm not even really paying attention to those huge outlines. The FL Wills one was 62 pgs and they wanted me to read it in 30 min? That's absurd. I have outlines I got from prep classes I took this past Spring that are doing just fine and are no more than 10 pages. Half the stuff they throw in those massive outlines isn't even tested. They just put it in there to cover their asses in the 1 in a million chance that it is tested.

[JJ556]

I'm not even really paying attention to those huge outlines. The FL Wills one was 62 pgs and they wanted me to read it in 30 min? That's absurd. I have outlines I got from prep classes I took this past Spring that are doing just fine and are no more than 10 pages. Half the stuff they throw in those massive outlines isn't even tested. They just put it in there to cover their asses in the 1 in a million chance that it is tested.

I stopped paying much attention to the long outlines as well. I've been completing the handouts while watching the lectures and then creating my own condensed outlines (I try to make sure the outline is no longer than 1/3 the length of the handout). It's worked well thus far; and I add any minutiae that isn't covered in the handout/lecture as it is discussed in the correct answers to the PQs and practice essays.

[Genuine4ps]

I'm not even really paying attention to those huge outlines. The FL Wills one was 62 pgs and they wanted me to read it in 30 min? That's absurd. I have outlines I got from prep classes I took this past Spring that are doing just fine and are no more than 10 pages. Half the stuff they throw in those massive outlines isn't even tested. They just put it in there to cover their asses in the 1 in a million chance that it is tested.

I stopped paying much attention to the long outlines as well. I've been completing the handouts while watching the lectures and then creating my own condensed outlines (I try to make sure the outline is no longer than 1/3 the length of the handout). It's worked well thus far; and I add any minutiae that isn't covered in the handout/lecture as it is discussed in the correct answers to the PQs and practice essays.

I'm also starting to wonder what the hell the point of the long outline is, but I'm reluctant to deviate from the course.

[dudnaito]

I'm not even really paying attention to those huge outlines. The FL Wills one was 62 pgs and they wanted me to read it in 30 min? That's absurd. I have outlines I got from prep classes I took this past Spring that are doing just fine and are no more than 10 pages. Half the stuff they throw in those massive outlines isn't even tested. They just put it in there to cover their asses in the 1 in a million chance that it is tested.

I stopped paying much attention to the long outlines as well. I've been completing the handouts while watching the lectures and then creating my own condensed outlines (I try to make sure the outline is no longer than 1/3 the length of the handout). It's worked well thus far; and I add any minutiae that isn't covered in the handout/lecture as it is discussed in the correct answers to the PQs and practice essays.

I'm also starting to wonder what the hell the point of the long outline is, but I'm reluctant to deviate from the course.

It's like someone else said. It's about Themis covering their ass in case a MBE question comes out that wasn't covered at all in the outlines. Even the Themis personnel tell you to "skim" over the outline and rely more heavily on the handouts and lectures anyway. Nothing beats just doing the MBE PQ's and MEE's and getting a sense of what subject parameters are actually being tested i'd imagine.

Regardless, it's just gonna suck. Cause at the end of the day, you're still going to be responsible for knowing a mind-numbing # of elements and expected to have perfect recall on em anyway. Just bite down on the towel and take it up the... ahem, i digress.

[ConsiderMeMilesDavis]

Thoughts for the day:

1. Echoing above, the Bar Exam is complete rubbish - who the eff needs to recall 5 element rule statements, their exemptions, and the exceptions to those exemptions....spanning 19 areas of law?! Jesus Christ, I feel like Will Hunting is the only person truly qualified to be an attorney. Perhaps the exam's purpose is to ensure that the law survives a some bizarre apocalyptic event that takes out the internet and our ability to retrieve this info in seconds.

2. My memorization skills are total dogshit (tossing a bucket of kerosene onto #1).

3. Themis should really provide the a hard-copy of lecture handouts and/or allow us to manipulate the PDF's. It seems to be a total waste of time to draft outlines from scratch.