Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2016 Forum

[Virindi]

I *think* what is going on is- they didnt ask what is the most serious crime he could be convicted of (like themis does). It just asked- what crimes is he guilty of- aka what crimes has he committed. And he's commited those three. Now what crimes could he be FOUND guilty of- he could not be FOUND guilty of all 3. But perhaps- just which crimes did he commit- aka what are the crimes he is guilty of... all three. That's my best guess.

i think you're absolutely right. cheers and thank you

[Vantwins]

They have me still watching lectures up to 7/12 (surety). I think I'm going to go through the outlines/lectures of the remaining topics on my own, not following their schedule. Hopefully will finish before 7/4 so I can review for most of July.

Yep, I'm not worrying about practice tests this week and am just finishing my lectures.

[1down1togo]

The underlying felony is independent of the felony murder. It doesn't merge.

they merge. check page 14 of your criminal law MBE outline

I've also got like 3 crim law questions wrong on the basis of "underlying felony doesn't merge"

[PhillyLawGirl2015]

does anyone know why this adaptibar question doesn't have burglary or robbery merge into the felony murder rule, and instead thinks the D can be tried for burglary, robbery, and FMR?

At 11:00 p.m., a couple was accosted in the entrance to their apartment building by the defendant, who was armed as well as masked. The defendant ordered the couple to take him into their apartment. After they entered the apartment, the defendant forced the woman to bind and gag her husband and then to open a safe which contained a diamond necklace. The defendant then tied her up and fled with the necklace. He was apprehended by apartment building security guards. Before the guards could return to the apartment, but after the defendant was arrested, the husband, straining to free himself, suffered a massive heart attack and died.

The defendant is guilty of

A. burglary, robbery, and murder.

B. robbery and murder only.

C. burglary and robbery only.

D. robbery only.


EXPLANATION:

The correct answer is A. Robbery is defined at common law as the taking, by force or threat of force, of personal property of another with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of the property. Burglary is the breaking and entering into a dwelling with the intent to commit a felony or theft therein. Felony murder is the killing of a human being in the course of a violent felony. In this case, the defendant is guilty of burglary, robbery, and murder. The defendant forced, at weapon point, the couple to allow him to enter their dwelling, which is sufficient for breaking and entering. When this breaking and entering occurred, the defendant had the intent to commit a theft of their property, and he is guilty of burglary. In addition, the defendant used force by tying and binding the couple, and the threat of force by threatening them, to take the necklace from the couple, and he had the intent to permanently deprive them of the necklace. Therefore, the defendant is guilty of robbery. Finally, the husband died as a result of the commission of those two violent felonies, so the defendant is guilty of felony murder. During the commission of the robbery and burglary, the defendant had the husband bound and gagged. That the husband would die from these actions, and the stress of attempting to escape, is foreseeable from the commission of the crime, and the defendant is guilty of murder.

Answer B is incorrect because it ignores the forced entry with the intent to commit felony theft into the apartment. Answer C is incorrect because it ignores the defendant's guilt under felony murder. Answer D is incorrect because it ignores both the burglary and the murder.

I *think* what is going on is- they didnt ask what is the most serious crime he could be convicted of (like themis does). It just asked- what crimes is he guilty of- aka what crimes has he committed. And he's commited those three. Now what crimes could he be FOUND guilty of- he could not be FOUND guilty of all 3. But perhaps- just which crimes did he commit- aka what are the crimes he is guilty of... all three. That's my best guess.

Agreed. The question is worded tricky. It should've said what could he be charged with

[countryfried]

does anyone know why this adaptibar question doesn't have burglary or robbery merge into the felony murder rule, and instead thinks the D can be tried for burglary, robbery, and FMR?

At 11:00 p.m., a couple was accosted in the entrance to their apartment building by the defendant, who was armed as well as masked. The defendant ordered the couple to take him into their apartment. After they entered the apartment, the defendant forced the woman to bind and gag her husband and then to open a safe which contained a diamond necklace. The defendant then tied her up and fled with the necklace. He was apprehended by apartment building security guards. Before the guards could return to the apartment, but after the defendant was arrested, the husband, straining to free himself, suffered a massive heart attack and died.

The defendant is guilty of

A. burglary, robbery, and murder.

B. robbery and murder only.

C. burglary and robbery only.

D. robbery only.


EXPLANATION:

The correct answer is A. Robbery is defined at common law as the taking, by force or threat of force, of personal property of another with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of the property. Burglary is the breaking and entering into a dwelling with the intent to commit a felony or theft therein. Felony murder is the killing of a human being in the course of a violent felony. In this case, the defendant is guilty of burglary, robbery, and murder. The defendant forced, at weapon point, the couple to allow him to enter their dwelling, which is sufficient for breaking and entering. When this breaking and entering occurred, the defendant had the intent to commit a theft of their property, and he is guilty of burglary. In addition, the defendant used force by tying and binding the couple, and the threat of force by threatening them, to take the necklace from the couple, and he had the intent to permanently deprive them of the necklace. Therefore, the defendant is guilty of robbery. Finally, the husband died as a result of the commission of those two violent felonies, so the defendant is guilty of felony murder. During the commission of the robbery and burglary, the defendant had the husband bound and gagged. That the husband would die from these actions, and the stress of attempting to escape, is foreseeable from the commission of the crime, and the defendant is guilty of murder.

Answer B is incorrect because it ignores the forced entry with the intent to commit felony theft into the apartment. Answer C is incorrect because it ignores the defendant's guilt under felony murder. Answer D is incorrect because it ignores both the burglary and the murder.

I *think* what is going on is- they didnt ask what is the most serious crime he could be convicted of (like themis does). It just asked- what crimes is he guilty of- aka what crimes has he committed. And he's commited those three. Now what crimes could he be FOUND guilty of- he could not be FOUND guilty of all 3. But perhaps- just which crimes did he commit- aka what are the crimes he is guilty of... all three. That's my best guess.

He can be found guilty of all three. Burglary and robbery does merge into felony murder on the husband, so the defendant can't be guilty of all three as to the husband. But there were two victims, and the wife didn't die. So the defendant is guilty of felony murder of the husband, and burglary and robbery of the wife.

[Nebby]

does anyone know why this adaptibar question doesn't have burglary or robbery merge into the felony murder rule, and instead thinks the D can be tried for burglary, robbery, and FMR?

At 11:00 p.m., a couple was accosted in the entrance to their apartment building by the defendant, who was armed as well as masked. The defendant ordered the couple to take him into their apartment. After they entered the apartment, the defendant forced the woman to bind and gag her husband and then to open a safe which contained a diamond necklace. The defendant then tied her up and fled with the necklace. He was apprehended by apartment building security guards. Before the guards could return to the apartment, but after the defendant was arrested, the husband, straining to free himself, suffered a massive heart attack and died.

The defendant is guilty of

A. burglary, robbery, and murder.

B. robbery and murder only.

C. burglary and robbery only.

D. robbery only.


EXPLANATION:

The correct answer is A. Robbery is defined at common law as the taking, by force or threat of force, of personal property of another with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of the property. Burglary is the breaking and entering into a dwelling with the intent to commit a felony or theft therein. Felony murder is the killing of a human being in the course of a violent felony. In this case, the defendant is guilty of burglary, robbery, and murder. The defendant forced, at weapon point, the couple to allow him to enter their dwelling, which is sufficient for breaking and entering. When this breaking and entering occurred, the defendant had the intent to commit a theft of their property, and he is guilty of burglary. In addition, the defendant used force by tying and binding the couple, and the threat of force by threatening them, to take the necklace from the couple, and he had the intent to permanently deprive them of the necklace. Therefore, the defendant is guilty of robbery. Finally, the husband died as a result of the commission of those two violent felonies, so the defendant is guilty of felony murder. During the commission of the robbery and burglary, the defendant had the husband bound and gagged. That the husband would die from these actions, and the stress of attempting to escape, is foreseeable from the commission of the crime, and the defendant is guilty of murder.

Answer B is incorrect because it ignores the forced entry with the intent to commit felony theft into the apartment. Answer C is incorrect because it ignores the defendant's guilt under felony murder. Answer D is incorrect because it ignores both the burglary and the murder.

I *think* what is going on is- they didnt ask what is the most serious crime he could be convicted of (like themis does). It just asked- what crimes is he guilty of- aka what crimes has he committed. And he's commited those three. Now what crimes could he be FOUND guilty of- he could not be FOUND guilty of all 3. But perhaps- just which crimes did he commit- aka what are the crimes he is guilty of... all three. That's my best guess.

He can be found guilty of all three. Burglary and robbery does merge into felony murder on the husband, so the defendant can't be guilty of all three as to the husband. But there were two victims, and the wife didn't die. So the defendant is guilty of felony murder of the husband, and burglary and robbery of the wife.

Ah shit good catch

[1down1togo]

does anyone know why this adaptibar question doesn't have burglary or robbery merge into the felony murder rule, and instead thinks the D can be tried for burglary, robbery, and FMR?

At 11:00 p.m., a couple was accosted in the entrance to their apartment building by the defendant, who was armed as well as masked. The defendant ordered the couple to take him into their apartment. After they entered the apartment, the defendant forced the woman to bind and gag her husband and then to open a safe which contained a diamond necklace. The defendant then tied her up and fled with the necklace. He was apprehended by apartment building security guards. Before the guards could return to the apartment, but after the defendant was arrested, the husband, straining to free himself, suffered a massive heart attack and died.

The defendant is guilty of

A. burglary, robbery, and murder.

B. robbery and murder only.

C. burglary and robbery only.

D. robbery only.


EXPLANATION:

The correct answer is A. Robbery is defined at common law as the taking, by force or threat of force, of personal property of another with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of the property. Burglary is the breaking and entering into a dwelling with the intent to commit a felony or theft therein. Felony murder is the killing of a human being in the course of a violent felony. In this case, the defendant is guilty of burglary, robbery, and murder. The defendant forced, at weapon point, the couple to allow him to enter their dwelling, which is sufficient for breaking and entering. When this breaking and entering occurred, the defendant had the intent to commit a theft of their property, and he is guilty of burglary. In addition, the defendant used force by tying and binding the couple, and the threat of force by threatening them, to take the necklace from the couple, and he had the intent to permanently deprive them of the necklace. Therefore, the defendant is guilty of robbery. Finally, the husband died as a result of the commission of those two violent felonies, so the defendant is guilty of felony murder. During the commission of the robbery and burglary, the defendant had the husband bound and gagged. That the husband would die from these actions, and the stress of attempting to escape, is foreseeable from the commission of the crime, and the defendant is guilty of murder.

Answer B is incorrect because it ignores the forced entry with the intent to commit felony theft into the apartment. Answer C is incorrect because it ignores the defendant's guilt under felony murder. Answer D is incorrect because it ignores both the burglary and the murder.

I *think* what is going on is- they didnt ask what is the most serious crime he could be convicted of (like themis does). It just asked- what crimes is he guilty of- aka what crimes has he committed. And he's commited those three. Now what crimes could he be FOUND guilty of- he could not be FOUND guilty of all 3. But perhaps- just which crimes did he commit- aka what are the crimes he is guilty of... all three. That's my best guess.

He can be found guilty of all three. Burglary and robbery does merge into felony murder on the husband, so the defendant can't be guilty of all three as to the husband. But there were two victims, and the wife didn't die. So the defendant is guilty of felony murder of the husband, and burglary and robbery of the wife.

Ah shit good catch

Hardest. Question. Ever.

[Nebby]

I would have got it right for the wrong reason, haha

[iliketurtles123]

Can someone tell me if it's okay to skip the MBE and essay workshop videos?

They seem repetitive and they don't seem to add much (I've only done about 1 or 2 though).

I'm pretty behind on schedule

[alicen]

Can someone tell me if it's okay to skip the MBE and essay workshop videos?

They seem repetitive and they don't seem to add much (I've only done about 1 or 2 though).

I'm pretty behind on schedule

the MBE lectures are definitely not useful, but you may as well do the practice MBE questions in the handout. the essay workshop lecture handout i've found to be useful; the lecture videos itself not so much.

[Virindi]

Can someone tell me if it's okay to skip the MBE and essay workshop videos?

They seem repetitive and they don't seem to add much (I've only done about 1 or 2 though).

I'm pretty behind on schedule

skip the MBE videos, but watch the essay workshop videos. Chris is actually really good and showing you issues and how shit pops up. It's only 10-15 minutes watching them on 1.5x

i'm finding that i'm going to go back and rewatch contracts for sure since its been so long

[kay2016]

Can someone tell me if it's okay to skip the MBE and essay workshop videos?

They seem repetitive and they don't seem to add much (I've only done about 1 or 2 though).

I'm pretty behind on schedule

skip the MBE videos, but watch the essay workshop videos. Chris is actually really good and showing you issues and how shit pops up. It's only 10-15 minutes watching them on 1.5x

i'm finding that i'm going to go back and rewatch contracts for sure since its been so long

I've been doing worse on contracts and am really considering rewatching....

[NaeDeen]

Can someone tell me if it's okay to skip the MBE and essay workshop videos?

They seem repetitive and they don't seem to add much (I've only done about 1 or 2 though).

I'm pretty behind on schedule

skip the MBE videos, but watch the essay workshop videos. Chris is actually really good and showing you issues and how shit pops up. It's only 10-15 minutes watching them on 1.5x

i'm finding that i'm going to go back and rewatch contracts for sure since its been so long

I've been doing worse on contracts and am really considering rewatching....

Advanced sales is a refresher with just a tiny bit more detail. If you watch that and it doesn't help then I'd rematch but on 1.5x or 2x on the parts you really don't understand. I've been bombing in K but watching sales helped me understand some of the stuff that was tripping me up. Good luck and stay positive!!!

[NaeDeen]

Alarm went off at 6:30am and I started rattling off agency and partnership definitions...good morning all! What a way to start my day lol

[unidentifiable]

Alarm went off at 6:30am and I started rattling off agency and partnership definitions...good morning all! What a way to start my day lol

i find myself doing this in the middle of night. except the rules are all jumbled, and i cant tell if i'm right or not.

[NaeDeen]

Alarm went off at 6:30am and I started rattling off agency and partnership definitions...good morning all! What a way to start my day lol

i find myself doing this in the middle of night. except the rules are all jumbled, and i cant tell if i'm right or not.

Just assume you're right and have actually learned something from all your hard work

[a_bowler_hat]

Alarm went off at 6:30am and I started rattling off agency and partnership definitions...good morning all! What a way to start my day lol

i find myself doing this in the middle of night. except the rules are all jumbled, and i cant tell if i'm right or not.

lol I had a dream last night I was doing a wills / trusts essay. worst dream ever. i guess we're really in the thick of it now

[NaeDeen]

Alarm went off at 6:30am and I started rattling off agency and partnership definitions...good morning all! What a way to start my day lol

i find myself doing this in the middle of night. except the rules are all jumbled, and i cant tell if i'm right or not.

lol I had a dream last night I was doing a wills / trusts essay. worst dream ever. i guess we're really in the thick of it now

Yup, sounds about right.

[unidentifiable]

i wish there was a "Go Back" option on these MBE PQs. So many times i've thought of the correct answer immediately after I Submit.

so lame.

[ndp1234]

i wish there was a "Go Back" option on these MBE PQs. So many times i've thought of the correct answer immediately after I Submit.

so lame.

I wish there was a way to do the questions in print, especially the longer sets. I feel my eyes get tired and I'm missing facts because I'm not able to underline and actively engage with question

[Fivedham]

i wish there was a "Go Back" option on these MBE PQs. So many times i've thought of the correct answer immediately after I Submit.

so lame.

I wish there was a go back button in life, man. I would've started studying for this thing like two weeks before I actually did start.

[BarPreppin'12]

i wish there was a "Go Back" option on these MBE PQs. So many times i've thought of the correct answer immediately after I Submit.

so lame.

I wish there was a way to do the questions in print, especially the longer sets. I feel my eyes get tired and I'm missing facts because I'm not able to underline and actively engage with question

I agree. There should be an option that students can actually get a work book similar to the Multistate Practice Exam Book. Not only might it be more realistic because the actual exam is not computerized, but we can impress people by how much work we went through.

[BarPreppin'12]

Anyone having problems with the essays? It seems like I can't remember the rules at all when doing them. I score between 60-70 on MBE questions usually, but I can't seem to do well on essays. Although I do t do this on graded essays, for regular, non graded ones, I usually am forced to look in the outlook book. We are a month away from exams and it is extremely disappointing to be doing this poorly on the essay questions. Anyone have any advise?

This is me. I'm doing well on MBE's but I can't write the rules from scratch. I know the rules but when I have to write it, I just miss it.

I'm using a flash card type system so I can memorize them. Memorizing the law cold isn't something I did in law school, so it's going to be a different experience.

Same with me. Most of my exams in law school were open book exams. Moreover, on essay exams, it was usually a discrete subject, not 3-4 wrapped into one out of a possible 19. For Florida, the bar examiners can choose from 19 subjects. Some of the subjects, like family, have over 10 facts to consider. That's fine. I can learn 10 factors. But 10 factors in family law, the hundreds of different factors in torts and criminal law, the intricacies of Trusts, among the many other things makes it very difficult. That + it is all mixed up. I could have a Family law question with a Dependency + Juvenile question wrapped up, topped off with Ethics. It is just so overwhelming.

Yes, exactly. And I find the essay grader's feedback to be totally unhelpful "this is confusing, read the sample answer" "you should have expanded more, read the sample answer" and then the grade is so low. But they don't give us a scored sample answer, so it doesn't help me personally if I don't know what I'm comparing my answer against.

Yeah. Out of curiosity, I wonder if someone would copy the sample answer verbatim, would that be enough to get the maximum number of points. Also, my essay grader does this, "You got the concept down, but you haven't shown mastery of the rules. You need to memorize it." My retort would be, "You try memorizing 19 possible subjects, show mastery, all in a 2 month period, with most of the subjects being completely new."

[ultimolugar]

Anyone having problems with the essays? It seems like I can't remember the rules at all when doing them. I score between 60-70 on MBE questions usually, but I can't seem to do well on essays. Although I do t do this on graded essays, for regular, non graded ones, I usually am forced to look in the outlook book. We are a month away from exams and it is extremely disappointing to be doing this poorly on the essay questions. Anyone have any advise?

This is me. I'm doing well on MBE's but I can't write the rules from scratch. I know the rules but when I have to write it, I just miss it.

I'm using a flash card type system so I can memorize them. Memorizing the law cold isn't something I did in law school, so it's going to be a different experience.

Same with me. Most of my exams in law school were open book exams. Moreover, on essay exams, it was usually a discrete subject, not 3-4 wrapped into one out of a possible 19. For Florida, the bar examiners can choose from 19 subjects. Some of the subjects, like family, have over 10 facts to consider. That's fine. I can learn 10 factors. But 10 factors in family law, the hundreds of different factors in torts and criminal law, the intricacies of Trusts, among the many other things makes it very difficult. That + it is all mixed up. I could have a Family law question with a Dependency + Juvenile question wrapped up, topped off with Ethics. It is just so overwhelming.

Yes, exactly. And I find the essay grader's feedback to be totally unhelpful "this is confusing, read the sample answer" "you should have expanded more, read the sample answer" and then the grade is so low. But they don't give us a scored sample answer, so it doesn't help me personally if I don't know what I'm comparing my answer against.

Yeah. Out of curiosity, I wonder if someone would copy the sample answer verbatim, would that be enough to get the maximum number of points. Also, my essay grader does this, "You got the concept down, but you haven't shown mastery of the rules. You need to memorize it." My retort would be, "You try memorizing 19 possible subjects, show mastery, all in a 2 month period, with most of the subjects being completely new."

Since they are attorneys, they have tried at least?

[ndp1234]

Anyone having problems with the essays? It seems like I can't remember the rules at all when doing them. I score between 60-70 on MBE questions usually, but I can't seem to do well on essays. Although I do t do this on graded essays, for regular, non graded ones, I usually am forced to look in the outlook book. We are a month away from exams and it is extremely disappointing to be doing this poorly on the essay questions. Anyone have any advise?

This is me. I'm doing well on MBE's but I can't write the rules from scratch. I know the rules but when I have to write it, I just miss it.

I'm using a flash card type system so I can memorize them. Memorizing the law cold isn't something I did in law school, so it's going to be a different experience.

Same with me. Most of my exams in law school were open book exams. Moreover, on essay exams, it was usually a discrete subject, not 3-4 wrapped into one out of a possible 19. For Florida, the bar examiners can choose from 19 subjects. Some of the subjects, like family, have over 10 facts to consider. That's fine. I can learn 10 factors. But 10 factors in family law, the hundreds of different factors in torts and criminal law, the intricacies of Trusts, among the many other things makes it very difficult. That + it is all mixed up. I could have a Family law question with a Dependency + Juvenile question wrapped up, topped off with Ethics. It is just so overwhelming.

Yes, exactly. And I find the essay grader's feedback to be totally unhelpful "this is confusing, read the sample answer" "you should have expanded more, read the sample answer" and then the grade is so low. But they don't give us a scored sample answer, so it doesn't help me personally if I don't know what I'm comparing my answer against.

Yeah. Out of curiosity, I wonder if someone would copy the sample answer verbatim, would that be enough to get the maximum number of points. Also, my essay grader does this, "You got the concept down, but you haven't shown mastery of the rules. You need to memorize it." My retort would be, "You try memorizing 19 possible subjects, show mastery, all in a 2 month period, with most of the subjects being completely new."

The graders you have is unrealistic. It's repeated time and time again that "mastery of the rules" is not required and most people don't reach that level. This is a minimal competency exam with . As long as you can recite some semblance of the correct rules, that should be fine. Obviously you're not reading the sample answer when you try the essay first, so telling you to read the sample answer is not helpful.