Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam Forum

[071816]

The handout for the Jeffries Federal Civ Pro lecture is PURE SHIT

[Gopackgo2010]

I'm not sure if I missed this somewhere along the way, but what exactly is the difference between TRAC and IRAC? I've been doing the essays with just IRAC and haven't seen any type of deductions, comments, or anything of the like. Is it just topic instead of Issue and then Issues go under the topics with sub headings? I usually repeat the questions posed like "M's statement to H....." and then go down the line with relevance, hearsay, exceptions etc... I know super amateur, but I thought better late than never.

[SilverE2]

I'm not sure if I missed this somewhere along the way, but what exactly is the difference between TRAC and IRAC? I've been doing the essays with just IRAC and haven't seen any type of deductions, comments, or anything of the like. Is it just topic instead of Issue and then Issues go under the topics with sub headings? I usually repeat the questions posed like "M's statement to H....." and then go down the line with relevance, hearsay, exceptions etc... I know super amateur, but I thought better late than never.

I dunno, I've just been doing the topic as a heading, and then the rule, analysis, conclusion as paragraphs. I've been scoring way better than average on essays for what it's worth.

Example:

I. A vs. B - Battery

Rule. Rule. Rule. Analysis. Analysis. Analysis.

Conclusion.

II. A vs. B - Assault

Rule. Rule. Rule. Analysis. Analysis. Analysis.

Conclusion.


And so on...

My grader hasn't had any complaints about my formatting.

[JoeFish]

Professor Karlan - who I think is pretty fantastic, by the way - talks about Mayor Benedick and his friend Claudio in Crim Law example 19. But the handout transcribes the former's name as "Mayor Benedict".

Come now, Themis - haven't you read your Shakespeare?

Or were you just afraid to commit the second half of "Benedick" into print?

[Apple Tree]

I think I've reached the stage of being burned out. I've decided to take this weekend off (well, last least today). Hopefully I won't be filled with guilt today.

[Gopackgo2010]

Your question is driving me crazy. Wish someone from Themis would pop on here and clarify - or I guess I could shoot them a message. "Because arson will merge with felony murder, she can only be convicted of one or the other." ??? I haven't read the fact pattern, so maybe I'm missing something, but really can't understand how arson merges with felony murder. Maybe I'll understand it better when I see the question...

Doesn't it just mean that you can't be tried with arson + felony murder if the underlying felony IN the felony-murder conviction is arson? It wouldn't make sense if you could be convicted with arson AND felony murder -- that would essentially mean you'd be convicted twice for arson because the reason you're being convicted of murder is because you committed the crime of arson in the first place (which then happened to kill someone).

You can be TRIED for both, but only a conviction for one of them would logically stand. Arson is basically considered the lesser-included offense of an arson-related felony murder.

So you're saying you can't be convicted of ANY underlying crime of felony murder if you're convicted of felony murder? That make sense... and now that I think about it, sounds familiar - thanks!! I guess I was just thrown off by the rules for mergers. I know the question from someone else was posted from just one MBE question, but this is something that could screw up an entire essay question if we got it wrong so I appreciate the clarification!

I thought this all made sense regarding the underlying felony merging into the Felony Murder, so I thought the same must apply for burglary and the underlying felony. For example, elements of larceny + additional elements of burglary would result in the larceny merging into the burglary, but I came across an mbe question where that was not correct, that larceny does not merge into the burglary. So now I'm questioning whether the underlying felony merges into felony murder. So basically I'm more confused about this than I was 3 days ago. Can't they just have a list of what merges into what? I don't even think it would be too long.

[Tanicius]

I thought this all made sense regarding the underlying felony merging into the Felony Murder, so I thought the same must apply for burglary and the underlying felony. For example, elements of larceny + additional elements of burglary would result in the larceny merging into the burglary, but I came across an mbe question where that was not correct, that larceny does not merge into the burglary. So now I'm questioning whether the underlying felony merges into felony murder. So basically I'm more confused about this than I was 3 days ago. Can't they just have a list of what merges into what? I don't even think it would be too long.

Similarly confused.

[whirledpeas86]

NY people... have we not gotten a summary outline for Corporations? I'm trying not to embarrass myself on graded essay #5, but also do not want to read the 55-page handout.

we just got the msg broadcast today with the link

You all get summary outlines for non-MBE topics‽ I'm pretty sure I've only gotten summary outlines for the MBE subjects but none of the state specific subjects (I'm doing PA).

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

NY people... have we not gotten a summary outline for Corporations? I'm trying not to embarrass myself on graded essay #5, but also do not want to read the 55-page handout.

we just got the msg broadcast today with the link

You all get summary outlines for non-MBE topics‽ I'm pretty sure I've only gotten summary outlines for the MBE subjects but none of the state specific subjects (I'm doing PA).

CA got summary outlines for both MBE and CA subjects.

Happy Weekend Everyone!! Might take a little break to go to the Farmer's Market. Just hoping I won't feel guilty afterwards... Hard to do anything these days without having that "but I should be studying!!" feeling 32 more days!!

[klbisho4]

FL people -- does Themis provide us with anything on Florida Rules of Judicial Administration or am I missing something? It's mandatorily tested each year and I don't see it as an outline or lecture..does it fall somewhere under professional conduct?

I haven't seen anything either. Maybe it'll be in the FL Civ Pro lectures i'm doing today? But yes typically it would fall under professional conduct rules. I learned them in my PR class.

[bport hopeful]

Me not understanding this may be a product of burnout, but what is the difference between Transactional Immunity and Use and Derivative Use Immunity?

[Genuine4ps]

I think I've reached the stage of being burned out. I've decided to take this weekend off (well, last least today). Hopefully I won't be filled with guilt today.

Have you been drilling a ton of MBE questions? This is where burnout generally sets in with me. I can tell when I'm burnt out when I'm making sloppy mistakes, I'm frustrated, and I'm having trouble concentrating.

I would definitely suggest taking the day off.

[SilverE2]

I thought this all made sense regarding the underlying felony merging into the Felony Murder, so I thought the same must apply for burglary and the underlying felony. For example, elements of larceny + additional elements of burglary would result in the larceny merging into the burglary, but I came across an mbe question where that was not correct, that larceny does not merge into the burglary. So now I'm questioning whether the underlying felony merges into felony murder. So basically I'm more confused about this than I was 3 days ago. Can't they just have a list of what merges into what? I don't even think it would be too long.

Similarly confused.

"The underlying felony will generally merge into the crime of felony murder. For example, a defendant who kills the proprietor of a store while committing a robbery can be convicted only of felony murder; the robbery conviction would merge into the felony-murder conviction." You can find this on Page 15 of the MBE Criminal Law outline, in a note under section II.B.1.d.

I think larceny does not merge with burglary because larceny isn't a lesser-included offense of burglary. Larceny is the: (1) Trespassory (2) taking and (3) carrying away (4) of the personal property (5) of another (6) with the intent to permanently deprive the person of the property. It's a property crime. Burglary isn't even necessarily a property crime (though it's listed under the property crimes section of the outline). Burglary is the (1) breaking and (2) entering (3) of the dwelling (4) of another (5) at nighttime (6) with the specific intent to commit a felony therein. I think the difference here is the fact that if you have the intent to commit ANY FELONY, and not necessarily only the taking of property, then a burglary has still been committed.

[Gopackgo2010]

I thought this all made sense regarding the underlying felony merging into the Felony Murder, so I thought the same must apply for burglary and the underlying felony. For example, elements of larceny + additional elements of burglary would result in the larceny merging into the burglary, but I came across an mbe question where that was not correct, that larceny does not merge into the burglary. So now I'm questioning whether the underlying felony merges into felony murder. So basically I'm more confused about this than I was 3 days ago. Can't they just have a list of what merges into what? I don't even think it would be too long.

Similarly confused.

"The underlying felony will generally merge into the crime of felony murder. For example, a defendant who kills the proprietor of a store while committing a robbery can be convicted only of felony murder; the robbery conviction would merge into the felony-murder conviction." You can find this on Page 15 of the MBE Criminal Law outline, in a note under section II.B.1.d.

I think larceny does not merge with burglary because larceny isn't a lesser-included offense of burglary. Larceny is the: (1) Trespassory (2) taking and (3) carrying away (4) of the personal property (5) of another (6) with the intent to permanently deprive the person of the property. It's a property crime. Burglary isn't even necessarily a property crime (though it's listed under the property crimes section of the outline). Burglary is the (1) breaking and (2) entering (3) of the dwelling (4) of another (5) at nighttime (6) with the specific intent to commit a felony therein. I think the difference here is the fact that if you have the intent to commit ANY FELONY, and not necessarily only the taking of property, then a burglary has still been committed.

Got it and since for felony murder to apply, it has to be the commission of an inherently dangerous felony (BAARK), it has to be one of those rather than just any felony like in Burglary. Thanks a lot! Owe you big time. I literally looked this up for so long and couldn't find a straight answer. I did read a couple pages of a law review article about the proper instructions to a jury for lesser included offenses and the reason why assault and battery cannot serve as the basis for felony murder, which makes me wanna go fall off a cliff.

[Genuine4ps]

Anyone else having trouble with Ks? So much shit that's not in the handout.

[northwood]

Me not understanding this may be a product of burnout, but what is the difference between Transactional Immunity and Use and Derivative Use Immunity?

transactional immunity: whatever criminal acts or transgressions that the witness testifies about will not be used against them, and the witness cannot be later charged with those specific crimes and have to face trial

Use immunity: the statements that the witness gives will not be used against them. but if there is sufficient other evidence to warrant a criminal charge against the witness for whatever crime they talked about, they can be charged with that crime.( but their testimony will not be used by the prosecution against them at the trial)

[Gotti]

Anyone else having trouble with Ks? So much shit that's not in the handout.

Yeah. Ks is almost worse than property. Almost.

[Gotti]

NY people... have we not gotten a summary outline for Corporations? I'm trying not to embarrass myself on graded essay #5, but also do not want to read the 55-page handout.

we just got the msg broadcast today with the link

You all get summary outlines for non-MBE topics‽ I'm pretty sure I've only gotten summary outlines for the MBE subjects but none of the state specific subjects (I'm doing PA).

Ahh that sucks, yeah NY does get summary outlines for state-specific subjects

[Gotti]

Oh and yeah not doing anything but studying (I gave up drinking/going out too) has finally gotten to me. I'm burned out and have become a giant bitch. I literally threw a tempter tantrum yesterday because the grocery store was out of ONE PARTICULAR KIND of candy that I really wanted (my mind was allowing no substitutes) and Duane Reade was closed. I decided to take the rest of the night off....

[whirledpeas86]

Anyone else having trouble with Ks? So much shit that's not in the handout.

Yeah. Ks is almost worse than property. Almost.

Ks and property *feel* equally bad as I do their respective practice sets, but somehow I've inexplicably been managing to pull decent-ish scores on Ks, even though it feels like I don't know shit. My contracts average so far is 62% which isn't great, but isn't the worst, and I kind of feel like I'm guessing on every question. Meanwhile, my property score is 55%, which is pretty fucking bad, even though I've read the full long outline more than once and have started going over flash cards and shit to hammer it into my brain.


TL;DR Ks sucks but property remains the WORST

[northwood]

Anyone else having trouble with Ks? So much shit that's not in the handout.

Yeah. Ks is almost worse than property. Almost.

Ks and property *feel* equally bad as I do their respective practice sets, but somehow I've inexplicably been managing to pull decent-ish scores on Ks, even though it feels like I don't know shit. My contracts average so far is 62% which isn't great, but isn't the worst, and I kind of feel like I'm guessing on every question. Meanwhile, my property score is 55%, which is pretty fucking bad, even though I've read the full long outline more than once and have started going over flash cards and shit to hammer it into my brain.


TL;DR Ks sucks but property remains the WORST

Mortgages- the combination of contracts and real property are the home to the 3rd through 5th levels of dante's hell.

[whirledpeas86]

Anyone else having trouble with Ks? So much shit that's not in the handout.

Yeah. Ks is almost worse than property. Almost.

Ks and property *feel* equally bad as I do their respective practice sets, but somehow I've inexplicably been managing to pull decent-ish scores on Ks, even though it feels like I don't know shit. My contracts average so far is 62% which isn't great, but isn't the worst, and I kind of feel like I'm guessing on every question. Meanwhile, my property score is 55%, which is pretty fucking bad, even though I've read the full long outline more than once and have started going over flash cards and shit to hammer it into my brain.


TL;DR Ks sucks but property remains the WORST

Mortgages- the combination of contracts and real property are the home to the 3rd through 5th levels of dante's hell.

That is the goddamn truth.

Also, I just totally bombed a Ks practice set and now my average is down to 55%. Fuck everything, including my hubris.

[Genuine4ps]

I know during the last two weeks, we're supposed to study 10-12 hrs a day. How many hours a day are all of you putting in until then?

[JJ556]

I know during the last two weeks, we're supposed to study 10-12 hrs a day. How many hours a day are all of you putting in until then?

I would say throughout the entire day (between the hours of 9 a.m. and 10 p.m.) I probably put in somewhere around ~8 hours. Around half of that time, however, consists of making my own mini outlines and going over critical pass flashcards and lean sheets, as Themis only give me between 3-4 hours of work a day -- I started early.

[Genuine4ps]

I know during the last two weeks, we're supposed to study 10-12 hrs a day. How many hours a day are all of you putting in until then?

I would say throughout the entire day (between the hours of 9 a.m. and 10 p.m.) I probably put in somewhere around ~8 hours. Around half of that time, however, consists of making my own mini outlines and going over critical pass flashcards and lean sheets, as Themis only give me between 3-4 hours of work a day -- I started early.

I need to step it up.