Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam Forum

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iLoveFruits&Veggies

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by iLoveFruits&Veggies » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:34 pm

puttycake wrote:I have discovered the Worst Feeling in the World.

It's when you are doing a graded essay and you... finish in 40 minutes and spend the last 20 frantically trying to figure out what you're missing.

When there's too much to write, you at least can feel like you know what the hell is going on. You can try to prioritize certain things and dash to the finish.

But when there's not enough? You know that you are a total loser idiot who is going to fail the bar.
That's exactly why I'm in a panic to memorize all of the top issues so I can run through them to make sure I'm not missing something. I'm SO scared of running out of things to say! Would love the problem of not having ENOUGH time to write everything I know. 33 more days to stuff it all into my brain!!

And yes, CA gets 3 hours for 3 essays on Tuesday and then again on Thursday, and it's up to us how much time to spend on each essay within those 3 hours.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by themis513 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:10 pm

Am I totally clueless or does the explanation to why C is wrong make absolutely no sense?? Help someone!!

Question ID:410

A police detective saw a notorious convicted felon who had been released from prison at a local mall. The detective contacted the local police department office to see if there were any outstanding arrest warrants for the felon. A clerk in the office correctly stated that the police database revealed an outstanding arrest warrant for the felon. Unbeknownst to either the detective or the clerk, another police officer had intentionally altered the expiration date of the arrest warrant in the police database, extending the date in order to lay the groundwork for a future arrest of the felon. Acting on the clerk's statement, the detective arrested the felon. A search of the felon uncovered a gun. The felon was charged with possession of a weapon by a felon. The felon's attorney sought to dismiss the charge against his client, contending that the seizure of the gun was unconstitutional and therefore had to be excluded as evidence. Should the court exclude the gun as evidence and dismiss the charges?

Answers
No, because the gun was seized during a search incident to an arrest.
No, because the detective acted in good faith reliance on the clerk's information that a valid arrest warrant existed.
Yes, because a violation of the Fourth Amendment prohibition against unreasonable searches and seizures requires the suppression of the seized evidence.
Yes, because the arrest warrant had expired.

Your Answer Choice: C

Almost everyone picked B

Rationale:
Answer choice D is correct. The gun was seized during an illegal arrest since the warrant for the felon's arrest had expired. As a consequence, exclusion of the gun from the felon's trial for the gun possession charge was mandated. Answer choice A is incorrect because, although the gun was seized incident to the felon's arrest, the arrest was illegal because the arrest warrant had expired. Answer choice B is incorrect because, although the good faith reliance exception to the exclusion of evidence seized pursuant to a defective warrant can apply even where that reliance is caused by isolated police negligence, it does not apply to deliberate police misconduct. Here, although neither the officer who effected the arrest nor the clerk who informed the officer about the warrant was aware of the misconduct, the deliberate misconduct is attributable to a police officer. Answer choice C is incorrect because an unconstitutional search or seizure does not require a court to apply the exclusionary rule. Instead the rule is applied where it serves to deter future constitutional violations.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Shawshank33 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:11 pm

I have been using adaptibar to raise my MBE score...was freaked after milestone 1-- helpful so far! Here's the $50 off code I used: PMWLIENP
Last edited by Shawshank33 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by iLoveFruits&Veggies » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:22 pm

themis513 wrote:Am I totally clueless or does the explanation to why C is wrong make absolutely no sense?? Help someone!!

Question ID:410

A police detective saw a notorious convicted felon who had been released from prison at a local mall. The detective contacted the local police department office to see if there were any outstanding arrest warrants for the felon. A clerk in the office correctly stated that the police database revealed an outstanding arrest warrant for the felon. Unbeknownst to either the detective or the clerk, another police officer had intentionally altered the expiration date of the arrest warrant in the police database, extending the date in order to lay the groundwork for a future arrest of the felon. Acting on the clerk's statement, the detective arrested the felon. A search of the felon uncovered a gun. The felon was charged with possession of a weapon by a felon. The felon's attorney sought to dismiss the charge against his client, contending that the seizure of the gun was unconstitutional and therefore had to be excluded as evidence. Should the court exclude the gun as evidence and dismiss the charges?

Answers
No, because the gun was seized during a search incident to an arrest.
No, because the detective acted in good faith reliance on the clerk's information that a valid arrest warrant existed.
Yes, because a violation of the Fourth Amendment prohibition against unreasonable searches and seizures requires the suppression of the seized evidence.
Yes, because the arrest warrant had expired.

Your Answer Choice: C

Almost everyone picked B

Rationale:
Answer choice D is correct. The gun was seized during an illegal arrest since the warrant for the felon's arrest had expired. As a consequence, exclusion of the gun from the felon's trial for the gun possession charge was mandated. Answer choice A is incorrect because, although the gun was seized incident to the felon's arrest, the arrest was illegal because the arrest warrant had expired. Answer choice B is incorrect because, although the good faith reliance exception to the exclusion of evidence seized pursuant to a defective warrant can apply even where that reliance is caused by isolated police negligence, it does not apply to deliberate police misconduct. Here, although neither the officer who effected the arrest nor the clerk who informed the officer about the warrant was aware of the misconduct, the deliberate misconduct is attributable to a police officer. Answer choice C is incorrect because an unconstitutional search or seizure does not require a court to apply the exclusionary rule. Instead the rule is applied where it serves to deter future constitutional violations.
Wow - what a tricky question. I would have picked B - because of good faith reliance. Apparently that doesn't work if the reason the warrant was altered was due to a police officer. Good to know! Guess they're just focusing in on it not being an "unreasonable" search and seizure but one that's simply based on an expired warrant and the exclusionary rule is in place to deter bad searches and seizures, not the tampering of warrants. Just my guess. See, this is why it's SO important to do tons of practice questions - to see exactly what answer the Bar is looking for. Stuff like this just slips through the cracks unless you've actually done a problem with a fact pattern to apply the rules to. Now none of us are going to forget the answer to something like this. :shock:

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by JoeFish » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:01 pm

I am very very very bad at contracts.

And Themisman says "don't waste time trying to get better at contracts."

I am inclined to disobey him.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Genuine4ps » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:03 pm

Shawshank33 wrote:I have been using adaptibar to raise my MBE score...was freaked after milestone 1-- helpful so far! Here's the $50 off code I used: PMWLIENP
What is the big deal with adaptibar? Why not just use the questions Themis provides?

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Gotti » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:04 pm

themis513 wrote:Am I totally clueless or does the explanation to why C is wrong make absolutely no sense?? Help someone!!
It's a poorly worded explanation, but I think they're trying to say that the answer isn't that the 4th amendment REQUIRES the application of the exclusionary rule in this particular case. The exclusionary rule applies in situations in which the fact that certain evidence being suppressed would deter certain actions by law enforcement. Here, application of the exclusionary rule wouldn't do anything to serve the purpose of the rule (to deter certain conduct) because that arrest and search would happen regardless of the exclusionary rule since it only happened because of ANOTHER cop's deliberate misconduct.

Idk if that makes sense, but I think the only thing they're trying to say is that the 4th amendment doesn't REQUIRE the application of the exclusionary rule here because applying the rule wouldn't deter the conduct that is at issue here.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Apple Tree » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:38 pm

Just did the Civ Pro graded essay. Literally spent 50% of the time talking about an issue that's not even an issue. I'm glad I learned about that mistake now rather than on the exam, but it's very scary to think that something like this could very well happen on the real exam.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by themis513 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:44 pm

Gotti wrote:
themis513 wrote:Am I totally clueless or does the explanation to why C is wrong make absolutely no sense?? Help someone!!
It's a poorly worded explanation, but I think they're trying to say that the answer isn't that the 4th amendment REQUIRES the application of the exclusionary rule in this particular case. The exclusionary rule applies in situations in which the fact that certain evidence being suppressed would deter certain actions by law enforcement. Here, application of the exclusionary rule wouldn't do anything to serve the purpose of the rule (to deter certain conduct) because that arrest and search would happen regardless of the exclusionary rule since it only happened because of ANOTHER cop's deliberate misconduct.

Idk if that makes sense, but I think the only thing they're trying to say is that the 4th amendment doesn't REQUIRE the application of the exclusionary rule here because applying the rule wouldn't deter the conduct that is at issue here.
I understand what you are saying but, looking at the wording of the problem "another police officer had intentionally altered the expiration date of the arrest warrant in the police database, extending the date in order to lay the groundwork for a future arrest of the felon", isn't this exactly the kind of governmental behaviour that the exclusionary rule would want to deter? I kind of get why D is the right answer but only because I got the question wrong!!! Wonder how many bar questions will be like this one. :shock:

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by iLoveFruits&Veggies » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:58 pm

themis513 wrote:
Gotti wrote:
themis513 wrote:Am I totally clueless or does the explanation to why C is wrong make absolutely no sense?? Help someone!!
It's a poorly worded explanation, but I think they're trying to say that the answer isn't that the 4th amendment REQUIRES the application of the exclusionary rule in this particular case. The exclusionary rule applies in situations in which the fact that certain evidence being suppressed would deter certain actions by law enforcement. Here, application of the exclusionary rule wouldn't do anything to serve the purpose of the rule (to deter certain conduct) because that arrest and search would happen regardless of the exclusionary rule since it only happened because of ANOTHER cop's deliberate misconduct.

Idk if that makes sense, but I think the only thing they're trying to say is that the 4th amendment doesn't REQUIRE the application of the exclusionary rule here because applying the rule wouldn't deter the conduct that is at issue here.
I understand what you are saying but, looking at the wording of the problem "another police officer had intentionally altered the expiration date of the arrest warrant in the police database, extending the date in order to lay the groundwork for a future arrest of the felon", isn't this exactly the kind of governmental behaviour that the exclusionary rule would want to deter? I kind of get why D is the right answer but only because I got the question wrong!!! Wonder how many bar questions will be like this one. :shock:
You'd think they'd want to deter that too - but the exclusionary rule is specifically for deterring wrongful searches and seizures, not to deter wrongful arrests from invalid warrants. At least that's my take on it after reading the explanation. The search here wasn't "wrong" based on a 4th amendment violation. The problem was with the arrest, not the search. As usual, there's probably going to be two answers that make sense and hopefully we'll be able to recognize which one the Bar considers to be the "better" answer. :?

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by puttycake » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:34 pm

Apple Tree wrote:Just did the Civ Pro graded essay. Literally spent 50% of the time talking about an issue that's not even an issue. I'm glad I learned about that mistake now rather than on the exam, but it's very scary to think that something like this could very well happen on the real exam.
Oof. That's no fun. What did you talk about?

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Gopackgo2010 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:04 am

iLoveFruits&Veggies wrote:
themis513 wrote:
Gotti wrote:
themis513 wrote:Am I totally clueless or does the explanation to why C is wrong make absolutely no sense?? Help someone!!
It's a poorly worded explanation, but I think they're trying to say that the answer isn't that the 4th amendment REQUIRES the application of the exclusionary rule in this particular case. The exclusionary rule applies in situations in which the fact that certain evidence being suppressed would deter certain actions by law enforcement. Here, application of the exclusionary rule wouldn't do anything to serve the purpose of the rule (to deter certain conduct) because that arrest and search would happen regardless of the exclusionary rule since it only happened because of ANOTHER cop's deliberate misconduct.

Idk if that makes sense, but I think the only thing they're trying to say is that the 4th amendment doesn't REQUIRE the application of the exclusionary rule here because applying the rule wouldn't deter the conduct that is at issue here.
I understand what you are saying but, looking at the wording of the problem "another police officer had intentionally altered the expiration date of the arrest warrant in the police database, extending the date in order to lay the groundwork for a future arrest of the felon", isn't this exactly the kind of governmental behaviour that the exclusionary rule would want to deter? I kind of get why D is the right answer but only because I got the question wrong!!! Wonder how many bar questions will be like this one. :shock:
You'd think they'd want to deter that too - but the exclusionary rule is specifically for deterring wrongful searches and seizures, not to deter wrongful arrests from invalid warrants. At least that's my take on it after reading the explanation. The search here wasn't "wrong" based on a 4th amendment violation. The problem was with the arrest, not the search. As usual, there's probably going to be two answers that make sense and hopefully we'll be able to recognize which one the Bar considers to be the "better" answer. :?
A wrongful arrest is a wrongful seizure. More importantly, the search here was improper based on the 4th amendment violation, since, here, the arrest is wrongful, any evidence real or testimonial obtained as a result of the unlawful arrest will also be subject to exclusionary rule under the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree Doctrine. The unlawful arrest has tainted the search incident to that unlawful arrest. In regards to answer choice C, the way I read that is that the answer choice is a general statement of a rule of law, not specific to the fact pattern. Therefore, answer choice C is saying that any violation of the 4th amendment automatically requires the exclusion of any evidence obtained as a result of the violation. "Requires" meaning necessary, meaning every time no matter what, whenever you have a 4th amendment violation, evidence must be excluded. Yet, Answer choice C neglects the various exceptions to the application of the exclusionary rule, such as attenuation, independent source, and inevitable discovery. These exceptions stand for the rationale that despite a 4th amendment violation, the exclusionary rule does not necessarily have to automatically be triggered, and the evidence can still be admitted. Therefore, answer choice D is an incorrect statement of law. It is not true that every 4th amendment violation requires the application of the exclusionary rule, since there are delineated exceptions to application of the exclusionary rule. Answer Choice A is wrong because the search incident to arrest is fruit of the poisonous tree as stated above. Honestly, I would have picked B, but that's because we never covered that exception to the exception of the good faith doctrine. We stopped at it's ok to rely on a police database, even if the info in the database was wrong due to negligence. Unfortunately, the explanation provided by Themis is vague and makes you think that the Exclusionary Rule shouldn't apply here, since it wouldn't serve sufficient deterrence, which is wrong since Answer D, the correct answer, concludes that the ER does apply and the gun should be excluded. That type of illegal police activity is the exact thing that the 4th amend and the ER tries to deter. The rationale provided for C is just a general statement, not specific to the fact pattern, which because of its vagueness makes you think that application of the ER in this instance wouldn't provide sufficient deterrence. As a last resort, you might be able to notice that if C was correct then it would also require D to be correct as well. Yet, for D to be correct, it does not require C to be correct, so you could eliminate C that way.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by iLoveFruits&Veggies » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:37 am

[/quote] A wrongful arrest is a wrongful seizure. More importantly, the search here was improper based on the 4th amendment violation, since, here, the arrest is wrongful, any evidence real or testimonial obtained as a result of the unlawful arrest will also be subject to exclusionary rule under the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree Doctrine. The unlawful arrest has tainted the search incident to that unlawful arrest. In regards to answer choice C, the way I read that is that the answer choice is a general statement of a rule of law, not specific to the fact pattern. Therefore, answer choice C is saying that any violation of the 4th amendment automatically requires the exclusion of any evidence obtained as a result of the violation. "Requires" meaning necessary, meaning every time no matter what, whenever you have a 4th amendment violation, evidence must be excluded. Yet, Answer choice C neglects the various exceptions to the application of the exclusionary rule, such as attenuation, independent source, and inevitable discovery. These exceptions stand for the rationale that despite a 4th amendment violation, the exclusionary rule does not necessarily have to automatically be triggered, and the evidence can still be admitted. Therefore, answer choice D is an incorrect statement of law. It is not true that every 4th amendment violation requires the application of the exclusionary rule, since there are delineated exceptions to application of the exclusionary rule. Answer Choice A is wrong because the search incident to arrest is fruit of the poisonous tree as stated above. Honestly, I would have picked B, but that's because we never covered that exception to the exception of the good faith doctrine. We stopped at it's ok to rely on a police database, even if the info in the database was wrong due to negligence. Unfortunately, the explanation provided by Themis is vague and makes you think that the Exclusionary Rule shouldn't apply here, since it wouldn't serve sufficient deterrence, which is wrong since Answer D, the correct answer, concludes that the ER does apply and the gun should be excluded. That type of illegal police activity is the exact thing that the 4th amend and the ER tries to deter. The rationale provided for C is just a general statement, not specific to the fact pattern, which because of its vagueness makes you think that application of the ER in this instance wouldn't provide sufficient deterrence. As a last resort, you might be able to notice that if C was correct then it would also require D to be correct as well. Yet, for D to be correct, it does not require C to be correct, so you could eliminate C that way.[/quote]

I stand corrected :wink: Your explanation makes sense :)

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by whirledpeas86 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:38 am

Did some review, a question set, and a performance test essay this morning. Then spent the rest of the day baking cinnamon almond apricot and Nutella toffee rugelach. Then went to a a chill dinner party at a friend's house. Today was a good day.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Lasers » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:31 am

just finished milestone 1 yesterday. i'd like to be at 70% before exam time, but i'm fine for now.

in the middle of evidence. ugh.

and fuck the essays. easily the worst part of the bar. gonna spend another week getting through all the subjects then just gonna cram rule statements and do practice.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Tanicius » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:12 am

I don't have any idea what my grader is even trying to tell me.
You want your tone and organization of your answer to read as a memo, not an essay. Therefore, you should not organization your answer in the same way that you would an essay question (Issue, analysis, etc.) but rather should write as though it is for a client.
WTF, that's exactly how we were told to organize it in the lecture videos. And what would non-IRAC structure "for a client" even look like? Just lackadaisically talking about anything anywhere?

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Apple Tree » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:36 am

puttycake wrote:
Apple Tree wrote:Just did the Civ Pro graded essay. Literally spent 50% of the time talking about an issue that's not even an issue. I'm glad I learned about that mistake now rather than on the exam, but it's very scary to think that something like this could very well happen on the real exam.
Oof. That's no fun. What did you talk about?
PJ. I talked about all the other issues that we were supposed to too, but had to completely forgo writing out the rule statements because there wasn't enough time. I'll probably get a 30 on the grade. But I'm mainly just worried about having the same thing happen to me on the real exam.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by kapital98 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:45 am

Shawshank33 wrote:I have been using adaptibar to raise my MBE score...was freaked after milestone 1-- helpful so far! Here's the $50 off code I used: PMWLIENP
Thanks! I might use this. It all depends on where my score is for MBE sections right before the test (say, two weeks before).

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by kapital98 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:47 am

Genuine4ps wrote:
Shawshank33 wrote:I have been using adaptibar to raise my MBE score...was freaked after milestone 1-- helpful so far! Here's the $50 off code I used: PMWLIENP
What is the big deal with adaptibar? Why not just use the questions Themis provides?
I'm afraid I might run out of Themis questions before becoming adequate at answering them. For example, Themis' directed study blew most of the Torts questions by asking us to complete them more than a month before the exam.

Also, I'm not sure what the difference in the questions are. Adaptibar says their questions are licensed from the NCBE but I'm not sure what that really means. This is what they say:
Absolutely all of the questions in the AdaptiBar database were written by the National Conference of Bar Examiners (NCBE). The NCBE is the organization that writes the questions for the MBE portion of the Bar Exam. This differentiates AdaptiBar from every other product of its kind on the market. Other bar exam review courses either:
a) Employ people to write questions that attempt to simulate those appearing on the Bar; or
b) Mix NCBE-authored questions with a majority of simulated questions.
AdaptiBar licenses previous MBE questions as well as their answers directly from the NCBE, so you know that you are always preparing with the most relevant practice questions.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Tanicius » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:07 am

kapital98 wrote:
Genuine4ps wrote:
Shawshank33 wrote:I have been using adaptibar to raise my MBE score...was freaked after milestone 1-- helpful so far! Here's the $50 off code I used: PMWLIENP
What is the big deal with adaptibar? Why not just use the questions Themis provides?
I'm afraid I might run out of Themis questions before becoming adequate at answering them. For example, Themis' directed study blew most of the Torts questions by asking us to complete them more than a month before the exam.
Ugh, ConLaw too. I haven't done a practice set of ConLaw questions in forever. I don't know if I can remember off the top of my head just about any of the First Amendment rules anymore.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Tanicius » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:08 am

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HI! I'M DAVID SCHOTT! I bet you thought your weekend was about to start early, but no can do, because I'm here, to talk to you, about Family Law! (All while playing with my wedding ring, same as I did with Evidence, baby.)

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Lilly76 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:10 am

How necessary is Adaptibar or any other supplemental course? I ask because I used Themis' free course to study for the MPRE, and on test day it was obvious that the Themis prep questions were noticeably different from the NCBE's questions, yet I still passed.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Tanicius » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:11 am

Lilly76 wrote:How necessary is Adaptibar or any other supplemental course? I ask because I used Themis' free course to study for the MPRE, and on test day it was obvious that the Themis prep questions were noticeably different from the NCBE's questions, yet I still passed.
Nobody knows. This is the hard truth. All anyone can offer are anecdotes and personal opinions about what they found useful and not useful.

Gotta keep reminding you guys though, 90% of the Themis folks pass, so they're clearly doing something right.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by Lilly76 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:17 am

Tanicius wrote:
Lilly76 wrote:How necessary is Adaptibar or any other supplemental course? I ask because I used Themis' free course to study for the MPRE, and on test day it was obvious that the Themis prep questions were noticeably different from the NCBE's questions, yet I still passed.
Nobody knows. This is the hard truth. All anyone can offer are anecdotes and personal opinions about what they found useful and not useful.

Gotta keep reminding you guys though, 90% of the Themis folks pass, so they're clearly doing something right.
Thanks. Doubt/fear is starting to creep over me like a slow moving fog, but that's what I keep trying to tell myself. Even if Themis doesn't use NCBE questions, clearly what it does provide is enough to pass.

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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam

Post by jigglypuffdreams » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:24 am

Yeah, I get the appeal of using actual NCBE questions, but I've heard a lot of the older ones that were released are much easier than the questions asked nowadays so I'm a bit scared of paying for adaptibar and just getting a false sense of security. Plus my scores have been improving as I review the outlines and go through the mixed sets slowly.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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