Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam Forum

[always_raining]

One definition of assault is "attempted burglary." I find that so confusing. So, you can never have an attempted assault if you are taking about battery (because that's just called "assault"), but you can have an attempted assault if you are taking about placing a person in apprehension of imminent bodily harm? Or can you never have an attempted assault?

[habz]

Evidence question. If a defendant is standing trial for murdering someone, and that now deceased person has written in his diary that the defendant is guilty of another crime, can that be admissible under 804 as a forfeiture by wrongdoing or do we have to first prove that the person actually killed the deceased? Meaning, does the forfeiture by wrongdoing come into play when the person is only accused of the wrongdoing as opposed to actually having proved the wrongdoing?

If I understand the question, forfeiture by wrongdoing would not apply unless the other crime is what the defendant is standing trial for now. If it is a murder trial, the notebook would be hearsay without an exception, and likely also impermissible propensity evidence against the defendant, unless this previous crime was prosecuted. Even then, there is better/non-hearsay evidence of that conviction.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding.

I should clarify that the evidence in the diary is motive for the murder itself

Ah gotcha, then yes, I would think forfeiture by wrongdoing would apply. The evidence is being offered as motive, not substantively, and the defendant is responsible for the witness being unavailable.

Thanks. I got it as part of a practice essay but none of the model answers touched on this subject.

[amorsebu14]

Has anyone looked at the 1st Wills essay? The answer, to me, does not answer the call of the question, and I am so frustrated! Anyone? Anyone?

[sd5289]

How seriously do you guys take the practice essays? I'm struggling to do more than half ass an outline and then read the model answers :/

I've been taking them seriously and drafting out answers. In my state, the essays and MPT are worth 50%, and since there's more room to get points, as opposed to the one right answer on the MBE, I've been trying to take them seriously in case something goes drastically wrong on the MBE. I've done 3 practice MPTs, and on the last one I finished with 25 minutes to spare. The first one I went right up to the last minute, and the second one I had about 7 minutes left, so the practicing is helping (just as it does on the MBE).

[habz]

wow. themis actually does do a live simulated MBE. I was not expecting that

[sd5289]

FYI, the email for locations for the simulated MBE in July just went out. My friend told me. Apparently the spots fill up quickly, so make sure to check your email and sign up!

[IamIn]

FYI, the email for locations for the simulated MBE in July just went out. My friend told me. Apparently the spots fill up quickly, so make sure to check your email and sign up!

Thanks so much for posting it here! The email went to my Junk folder--I would've never discovered it.

[annapach]

somuchbooty wrote:
zot1 wrote:
kjartan wrote:
2014 wrote:
How seriously do you guys take the practice essays? I'm struggling to do more than half ass an outline and then read the model answers :/

I take about half of them seriously. I don't get much out of the model answers. I think trying to write the model answers on the actual bar exam could easily lead to a failing score.

So very curious to know what exactly you mean by this

I assume that they mean that a really good answer could in fact look nothing like the model answer, but I'm unsure. I'd agree with that, I think the way they approach things is against any kind of sense in a lot of the model answers I've seen so far.

I've found SO much more calm from ignoring their practice answers, for the most part, and instead consulting REAL sample answers from the bar exam websites for wording of rules/approx length etc. For example, I'm taking PA and NJ, and NJ has a great setup for past answers (https://www.njbarexams.org/bar-exam-que ... le-answers). Usually these are WAY more succinct and imperfect than the ones Themis provides. They help me to maintain a real world perspective on how people who pass actually respond to the essays.

[sd5289]

FYI, the email for locations for the simulated MBE in July just went out. My friend told me. Apparently the spots fill up quickly, so make sure to check your email and sign up!

Thanks so much for posting it here! The email went to my Junk folder--I would've never discovered it.

No worries! I'm getting at least as much help from this thread as I am from the actual program, so anything to help everyone out!

[milesdavisjd]

Criminal Law Essay Questions... how do you know what the call of the question actually is? I have consistently been confused as to what they expect me to do. It seems like they say things like... can the Defendant be convicted of 2nd degree murder, and then the model answer only goes through intent and causation. Why aren't ALL of the elements of the crime discussed? More confusing, are questions like, "did the court err in denying the Defendant's motion to suppress", and then the model answer ONLY discusses what is required to have standing for a 4th amendment protection against unreasonable searches, even though there were issues in the fact pattern that eluded to issues of 3rd party consent, and searches of 3rd party premises. Examples below:

[+] Spoiler

Question: Murder is defined as “a killing with malice aforethought.” In this jurisdiction, second-degree murder is “all murder that is not deliberate or premeditated.” Defendant has been charged with second-degree murder on account of his shooting Friend and Friend’s subsequent death.
Is Defendant guilty of second-degree murder? Explain.

A: (reduced to keep things easy, but the issues discussed are here) The issue is whether Defendant acted with the mens rea sufficient to be found guilty of second-degree murder and whether whether Defendant’s accidental shooting of Friend was the legal cause of Friend’s death

[+] Spoiler

Questions: Did the trial court err 1) In denying John’s motion for judgment of acquittal? Explain and 2) In failing to instruct the jury on the defense of abandonment? Explain

A: 1) The issue is whether the prosecution produced sufficient evidence to prove all of the elements of the crime and 2) The issue is whether “abandonment” is a defense to a charge of an attempted crime

After writing this, I'm actually beginning to see the connection, but in the moment, I freaked. I knew I should have discussed intent, but only causation as well? While writing the answer to the 2nd question, I was wondering if acquittal was something significantly discussed in crim. pro. that I missed?? It wasn't, but similarly, with the question about jury instructions, I spent more time writing about what was expected of jury instructions and less about whether abandonment was a defense or not.

[henry flower]

My last batch of Maryland essays (2 Civ Pro, 1 Torts, 1 Con Law) threw me for a loop. Up until now, the essays seem to have tested pretty basic stuff, and I was doing reasonably well, even though I will always struggle with managing my time for 25-minute essay questions. These, though, were something else. The rules and topics were definitely off the beaten path and one question was this strange dead end: you were asked what actions Dan Defendant might take to achieve goal X, and there was literally NOTHING that Dan could to achieve goal X... The Bar Examiner's analysis was just a list of what wouldn't work for Dan and why.

[Pleasye]

FYI, the email for locations for the simulated MBE in July just went out. My friend told me. Apparently the spots fill up quickly, so make sure to check your email and sign up!

I haven't gotten this email

[sd5289]

Criminal Law Essay Questions... how do you know what the call of the question actually is? I have consistently been confused as to what they expect me to do. It seems like they say things like... can the Defendant be convicted of 2nd degree murder, and then the model answer only goes through intent and causation. Why aren't ALL of the elements of the crime discussed? More confusing, are questions like, "did the court err in denying the Defendant's motion to suppress", and then the model answer ONLY discusses what is required to have standing for a 4th amendment protection against unreasonable searches, even though there were issues in the fact pattern that eluded to issues of 3rd party consent, and searches of 3rd party premises. Examples below:

[+] Spoiler

Question: Murder is defined as “a killing with malice aforethought.” In this jurisdiction, second-degree murder is “all murder that is not deliberate or premeditated.” Defendant has been charged with second-degree murder on account of his shooting Friend and Friend’s subsequent death.
Is Defendant guilty of second-degree murder? Explain.

A: (reduced to keep things easy, but the issues discussed are here) The issue is whether Defendant acted with the mens rea sufficient to be found guilty of second-degree murder and whether whether Defendant’s accidental shooting of Friend was the legal cause of Friend’s death

[+] Spoiler

Questions: Did the trial court err 1) In denying John’s motion for judgment of acquittal? Explain and 2) In failing to instruct the jury on the defense of abandonment? Explain

A: 1) The issue is whether the prosecution produced sufficient evidence to prove all of the elements of the crime and 2) The issue is whether “abandonment” is a defense to a charge of an attempted crime

After writing this, I'm actually beginning to see the connection, but in the moment, I freaked. I knew I should have discussed intent, but only causation as well? While writing the answer to the 2nd question, I was wondering if acquittal was something significantly discussed in crim. pro. that I missed?? It wasn't, but similarly, with the question about jury instructions, I spent more time writing about what was expected of jury instructions and less about whether abandonment was a defense or not.

It's kinda hard to comment specifically without the full text of the fact pattern and questions, BUT, keep in mind the following whenever you're doing a criminal law question:

(1) If any required element is missing, no matter how "minor" it may seem to you, then the D has not committed that crime. I'm guessing in the fact pattern you had, what was in dispute was whether the D acted with the required mens rea in order to commit 2nd degree murder. If that is defined in this jurisdiction as any intentional act that causes the death of another that was not premeditated or deliberate, then accidentally killing someone through an intentional act would count. For example, I intend to shoot you in the leg because you annoyed me, but I had no intention to kill you, and never planned on killing you. If I miss, and hit you in the chest, that's an accident, but I'm still guilty of 2nd degree murder under this definition that you've quoted.

(2) I've noticed that the PQ's often have a missing mens rea element. For example, I take your laptop from the library with the intent to use it for 20 minutes at the nearby coffee shop because my laptop ran out of battery. I fully intend on returning it, but on the way back from the coffee shop, a cyclist hits me and the laptop goes flying under a car and is destroyed. The main question in this case was did I intend to deprive you of that property permanently? The answer is no. It seems silly, but you have to accept each element on face value. I'm likely guilty of something lesser, but I'm not guilty of larceny. The key to these question is to take the required elements at face value, and if you're missing one, then you don't have that crime.

I'm not sure if this helps. Hope it does!

[always_raining]

Criminal Law Essay Questions... how do you know what the call of the question actually is? I have consistently been confused as to what they expect me to do. It seems like they say things like... can the Defendant be convicted of 2nd degree murder, and then the model answer only goes through intent and causation. Why aren't ALL of the elements of the crime discussed? More confusing, are questions like, "did the court err in denying the Defendant's motion to suppress", and then the model answer ONLY discusses what is required to have standing for a 4th amendment protection against unreasonable searches, even though there were issues in the fact pattern that eluded to issues of 3rd party consent, and searches of 3rd party premises. Examples below:

[+] Spoiler

Question: Murder is defined as “a killing with malice aforethought.” In this jurisdiction, second-degree murder is “all murder that is not deliberate or premeditated.” Defendant has been charged with second-degree murder on account of his shooting Friend and Friend’s subsequent death.
Is Defendant guilty of second-degree murder? Explain.

A: (reduced to keep things easy, but the issues discussed are here) The issue is whether Defendant acted with the mens rea sufficient to be found guilty of second-degree murder and whether whether Defendant’s accidental shooting of Friend was the legal cause of Friend’s death

[+] Spoiler

Questions: Did the trial court err 1) In denying John’s motion for judgment of acquittal? Explain and 2) In failing to instruct the jury on the defense of abandonment? Explain

A: 1) The issue is whether the prosecution produced sufficient evidence to prove all of the elements of the crime and 2) The issue is whether “abandonment” is a defense to a charge of an attempted crime

After writing this, I'm actually beginning to see the connection, but in the moment, I freaked. I knew I should have discussed intent, but only causation as well? While writing the answer to the 2nd question, I was wondering if acquittal was something significantly discussed in crim. pro. that I missed?? It wasn't, but similarly, with the question about jury instructions, I spent more time writing about what was expected of jury instructions and less about whether abandonment was a defense or not.

For question 1:

[+] Spoiler

For the second-degree murder question, you would state what the definition of murder is ((1) unlawful (2) killing of a (3) human being committed with (4) malice aforethought). We already know the friend is a human (so that clears up element 3), and that the killing was not justified by self defense or any other type of defense (and that makes the killing unlawful, clearing up element 1), so the only elements left to talk about are "killing" and "malice aforethought." In order to prove the "killing" element, you must show that there was legal and factual cause. Then are three different levels of intent possible (since the question already said first degree murder is intentional, which means the other three intents are left to second degree). You would have to show he had the correct intent, and to do so, you would want to explain what intents count as malice aforethought and whether any of them are satisfied. (I realize you probably know all of the law here, but I was trying to explain why the model answer focuses on intent and causation, and thought writing out my thought process might be helpful. Or it might be totally unhelpful). Whenever I do these questions and feel lost because the call of the question is unclear, I start by writing out the elements and see which ones would be contested. I have problems like this all the time and it makes me want to punch myself and the Themis people for being so unclear.

I had the same problem with the reference to a motion for acquittal. I didn't remember reading about that, but since I didn't have any other option, I had to assume that was a thing like a Renewed JNOV. I figured that someone had to be aquitted if the prosecution didn't prove all the elements to the crime, but I definitely found it confusing and thought it might have been a trick.

[Pleasye]

Omg these attempts at Civ Pro MBEs are pathetic.

[NonJuris]

.

[kjartan]

Omg these attempts at Civ Pro MBEs are pathetic.

So it's not just me then. Good. Some of these questions seem very shittily drafted, and even if I do see how they arrive at their right answer, it's after going over the river of bullshit wording and through the woods of inconsistent word usage to get there.

It's funny to review my answers and see that like 70% of people selected the same wrong answer as me.

[eloise16]

Omg these attempts at Civ Pro MBEs are pathetic.

So it's not just me then. Good. Some of these questions seem very shittily drafted, and even if I do see how they arrive at their right answer, it's after going over the river of bullshit wording and through the woods of inconsistent word usage to get there.

It's funny to review my answers and see that like 70% of people selected the same wrong answer as me.

Thanks to your comment, I only just now discovered that we can see the breakdown of what answers other people picked.... it's only over half way through the course. How did I miss this!?

[anon sequitur]

Thanks to your comment, I only just now discovered that we can see the breakdown of what answers other people picked.... it's only over half way through the course. How did I miss this!?

Same way I missed it. Also, still can't find how you all are seeing it.

[UnamSanctam]

Thanks to your comment, I only just now discovered that we can see the breakdown of what answers other people picked.... it's only over half way through the course. How did I miss this!?

Same way I missed it. Also, still can't find how you all are seeing it.

MBE PQs -> [Pick a set to review, or if you just finished a set at the completion screen, stay on that screen] -> Click on the text that starts each specific question.

[smalogna]

How is everyone handling the job search thing and studying for the Bar? I have a couple of interviews in July, but am wondering if I'd just be better off just asking to move them out until AFTER the exam.

Honestly, it's a struggle. I have had four interviews this month because I went kind of insane with the apps and it is really distracting. You have to prepare for the interview well, which keeps you from being able to focus and then after the interview you're all worked up and shit hahah. I stopped applying. After this next interview tomorrow, I'm done. I think I will have a follow-up interview for a clerkship in a couple of weeks but I'm not applying for anything new. On one hand, you really are ahead of the competition because once the bar exam passes, these employers are going to be FLOODED with resumes. But on the other hand, it really isn't worth getting totally and completely distracted while you have to focus.

Just bombed Property Set 4 with a 65%.

Considering that's what you're looking for on the actual exam (especially in property) you should be having a celebratory drink

[gr8scOtt!]

Thank you to the person who mentioned you could change the size of the text box for essay writing. I've written two essays today and being able to enlarge the text box was like Christmas morning!

And now I look for the little bars in the lower right hand corner for all text boxes and just noticed you can also enlarge the text box for posting here!

[milesdavisjd]

Criminal Law Essay Questions... how do you know what the call of the question actually is? I have consistently been confused as to what they expect me to do. It seems like they say things like... can the Defendant be convicted of 2nd degree murder, and then the model answer only goes through intent and causation. Why aren't ALL of the elements of the crime discussed? More confusing, are questions like, "did the court err in denying the Defendant's motion to suppress", and then the model answer ONLY discusses what is required to have standing for a 4th amendment protection against unreasonable searches, even though there were issues in the fact pattern that eluded to issues of 3rd party consent, and searches of 3rd party premises. Examples below:

[+] Spoiler

Question: Murder is defined as “a killing with malice aforethought.” In this jurisdiction, second-degree murder is “all murder that is not deliberate or premeditated.” Defendant has been charged with second-degree murder on account of his shooting Friend and Friend’s subsequent death.
Is Defendant guilty of second-degree murder? Explain.

A: (reduced to keep things easy, but the issues discussed are here) The issue is whether Defendant acted with the mens rea sufficient to be found guilty of second-degree murder and whether whether Defendant’s accidental shooting of Friend was the legal cause of Friend’s death

[+] Spoiler

Questions: Did the trial court err 1) In denying John’s motion for judgment of acquittal? Explain and 2) In failing to instruct the jury on the defense of abandonment? Explain

A: 1) The issue is whether the prosecution produced sufficient evidence to prove all of the elements of the crime and 2) The issue is whether “abandonment” is a defense to a charge of an attempted crime

After writing this, I'm actually beginning to see the connection, but in the moment, I freaked. I knew I should have discussed intent, but only causation as well? While writing the answer to the 2nd question, I was wondering if acquittal was something significantly discussed in crim. pro. that I missed?? It wasn't, but similarly, with the question about jury instructions, I spent more time writing about what was expected of jury instructions and less about whether abandonment was a defense or not.

It's kinda hard to comment specifically without the full text of the fact pattern and questions, BUT, keep in mind the following whenever you're doing a criminal law question:

(1) If any required element is missing, no matter how "minor" it may seem to you, then the D has not committed that crime. I'm guessing in the fact pattern you had, what was in dispute was whether the D acted with the required mens rea in order to commit 2nd degree murder. If that is defined in this jurisdiction as any intentional act that causes the death of another that was not premeditated or deliberate, then accidentally killing someone through an intentional act would count. For example, I intend to shoot you in the leg because you annoyed me, but I had no intention to kill you, and never planned on killing you. If I miss, and hit you in the chest, that's an accident, but I'm still guilty of 2nd degree murder under this definition that you've quoted.

(2) I've noticed that the PQ's often have a missing mens rea element. For example, I take your laptop from the library with the intent to use it for 20 minutes at the nearby coffee shop because my laptop ran out of battery. I fully intend on returning it, but on the way back from the coffee shop, a cyclist hits me and the laptop goes flying under a car and is destroyed. The main question in this case was did I intend to deprive you of that property permanently? The answer is no. It seems silly, but you have to accept each element on face value. I'm likely guilty of something lesser, but I'm not guilty of larceny. The key to these question is to take the required elements at face value, and if you're missing one, then you don't have that crime.

I'm not sure if this helps. Hope it does!

Thank you! Thinking about it and discussing was super helpful. I was talking to my husband (who's been an attorney for 10 years) and he thought it was tricky as well, so it was somewhat reassuring. Hopefully all the criminal law questions aren't tricks!

[jadasistgoodja]

Hi all,

Wondered whether you all want to share total correct MBE %, might be helpful as a point of comparison?

Mine is 55% (unimpressed)

You can access it by clicking course progress >MBE sets on the left > it's at the very top above the other averages (obviously you all know that)

[zot1]

So how quickly can Themis update con law, family law, wills, and whatever else I could be missing?