Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2014 Exam Forum

[Apple Tree]

I have a Civ Pro question that's been bugging me. Does anyone know the difference between a plaintiff joined under permissive joinder and one joined under intervention? Seems like under both situations a third party seeks to join in a law suit. I ask because they have different rules for supplemental jdx.

[puttycake]

I have a Civ Pro question that's been bugging me. Does anyone know the difference between a plaintiff joined under permissive joinder and one joined under intervention? Seems like under both situations a third party seeks to join in a law suit. I ask because they have different rules for supplemental jdx.

This is what I think the difference is:

Joinder is when the plaintiff says, "Ooh, I wanna bring Jim and Jo into this. C'mon, Jim and Jo and let's all sue Dennis!"

Intervention is when Irving then looks at Paul and Jim and Jo and says "I wanna sue Dennis, too."

Because the intervenor was not specifically invited in by the plaintiffs, he has to jump higher hurdles. The intervenor is an interloper. And because they weren't invited, they don't get to ride on the plaintiff's coattails and get in if it would destroy diversity or if they don't have the threshold amount. That makes sense if you imagine twisty motives. If it would destroy diversity, a defendant could actually destroy the case just by getting someone to intervene. We don't want that. And the threshold amount also makes sense because it means that the intervenor is trying to benefit by having someone else do the heavy lifting of putting together a federal case, then stepping in and using that other person's claim as the basis for their own without that person's permission.

[Apple Tree]

I have a Civ Pro question that's been bugging me. Does anyone know the difference between a plaintiff joined under permissive joinder and one joined under intervention? Seems like under both situations a third party seeks to join in a law suit. I ask because they have different rules for supplemental jdx.

This is what I think the difference is:

Joinder is when the plaintiff says, "Ooh, I wanna bring Jim and Jo into this. C'mon, Jim and Jo and let's all sue Dennis!"

Intervention is when Irving then looks at Paul and Jim and Jo and says "I wanna sue Dennis, too."

Because the intervenor was not specifically invited in by the plaintiffs, he has to jump higher hurdles. The intervenor is an interloper. And because they weren't invited, they don't get to ride on the plaintiff's coattails and get in if it would destroy diversity or if they don't have the threshold amount. That makes sense if you imagine twisty motives. If it would destroy diversity, a defendant could actually destroy the case just by getting someone to intervene. We don't want that. And the threshold amount also makes sense because it means that the intervenor is trying to benefit by having someone else do the heavy lifting of putting together a federal case, then stepping in and using that other person's claim as the basis for their own without that person's permission.

That makes sense. Thank you so much!

[ioezeigbo]

Hello all,
I really don't want to come off as a complainer, because overall, I have been somewhat satisfied with Themis' presentation of material for Maryland and MBE subjects. However, as I am completing the MBE contracts lecture I can't help but notice the fact that the Multistate outline has significant holes for certain topics (i.e. "risk of loss for UCC contracts"). Professor Geis is great, and he mentioned that risk of loss is ripe for testing, so I am a bit concerned that Themis has omitted it from the outline (or has hidden it in another area). This concerns me because I tend to rely on the outline to review because the handouts often cover information that is too basic and not really tested on the practice MBE questions. Has anyone else noticed this?

[Genuine4ps]

Hello all,
I really don't want to come off as a complainer, because overall, I have been somewhat satisfied with Themis' presentation of material for Maryland and MBE subjects. However, as I am completing the MBE contracts lecture I can't help but notice the fact that the Multistate outline has significant holes for certain topics (i.e. "risk of loss for UCC contracts"). Professor Geis is great, and he mentioned that risk of loss is ripe for testing, so I am a bit concerned that Themis has omitted it from the outline (or has hidden it in another area). This concerns me because I tend to rely on the outline to review because the handouts often cover information that is too basic and not really tested on the practice MBE questions. Has anyone else noticed this?

That's not my perception. I think the long outlines are WAY too comprehensive, and the handouts are fine. Do you think the subjects are going to be tested with the same depth as they were in law school?

[071816]

Hello all,
I really don't want to come off as a complainer, because overall, I have been somewhat satisfied with Themis' presentation of material for Maryland and MBE subjects. However, as I am completing the MBE contracts lecture I can't help but notice the fact that the Multistate outline has significant holes for certain topics (i.e. "risk of loss for UCC contracts"). Professor Geis is great, and he mentioned that risk of loss is ripe for testing, so I am a bit concerned that Themis has omitted it from the outline (or has hidden it in another area). This concerns me because I tend to rely on the outline to review because the handouts often cover information that is too basic and not really tested on the practice MBE questions. Has anyone else noticed this?

I couldn't disagree more. The bar is about knowing the basics of each topic really well. It's not about mastering the minutia.

[ioezeigbo]

Hello all,
I really don't want to come off as a complainer, because overall, I have been somewhat satisfied with Themis' presentation of material for Maryland and MBE subjects. However, as I am completing the MBE contracts lecture I can't help but notice the fact that the Multistate outline has significant holes for certain topics (i.e. "risk of loss for UCC contracts"). Professor Geis is great, and he mentioned that risk of loss is ripe for testing, so I am a bit concerned that Themis has omitted it from the outline (or has hidden it in another area). This concerns me because I tend to rely on the outline to review because the handouts often cover information that is too basic and not really tested on the practice MBE questions. Has anyone else noticed this?

That's not my perception. I think the long outlines are WAY too comprehensive, and the handouts are fine. Do you think the subjects are going to be tested with the same depth as they were in law school?

I think in certain areas; only because I've missed several MBE PQs in other subjects (i.e. Property, for mortgages and recording acts), where the correct answer referred to material not in the handout, but I only found when reviewing the long outline more carefully. In particular, although I really enjoyed Kramer and his property lecture, I felt that his coverage of mortgages and foreclosure was somewhat superficial considering the detail they are tested on MBE.
Hopefully this isn't true for all subjects; I just hope I don't get constantly tripped up by nuances that are hidden deep in the outline that were glossed over in the lectures.

[Tanicius]

Hello all,
I really don't want to come off as a complainer, because overall, I have been somewhat satisfied with Themis' presentation of material for Maryland and MBE subjects. However, as I am completing the MBE contracts lecture I can't help but notice the fact that the Multistate outline has significant holes for certain topics (i.e. "risk of loss for UCC contracts"). Professor Geis is great, and he mentioned that risk of loss is ripe for testing, so I am a bit concerned that Themis has omitted it from the outline (or has hidden it in another area). This concerns me because I tend to rely on the outline to review because the handouts often cover information that is too basic and not really tested on the practice MBE questions. Has anyone else noticed this?

That's not my perception. I think the long outlines are WAY too comprehensive, and the handouts are fine. Do you think the subjects are going to be tested with the same depth as they were in law school?

Here's the problem, though. In my experience, a good third to half the questions on the practice questions have been things not actually taught by the lectures and their accompanying handouts. The first set of 17 and 34 questions I do for each subject almost always end in a rage because a bunch of my answers are usually correct but not in the very specific context, for which there is an exception included in the outline but not the handout. If this happens to the same degree on the real test, you better pray that the practice questions are accurately representing the type of material we will be tested on, or else there's a sea of exceptions we're not learning by foregoing the long outlines.

[071816]

Hello all,
I really don't want to come off as a complainer, because overall, I have been somewhat satisfied with Themis' presentation of material for Maryland and MBE subjects. However, as I am completing the MBE contracts lecture I can't help but notice the fact that the Multistate outline has significant holes for certain topics (i.e. "risk of loss for UCC contracts"). Professor Geis is great, and he mentioned that risk of loss is ripe for testing, so I am a bit concerned that Themis has omitted it from the outline (or has hidden it in another area). This concerns me because I tend to rely on the outline to review because the handouts often cover information that is too basic and not really tested on the practice MBE questions. Has anyone else noticed this?

That's not my perception. I think the long outlines are WAY too comprehensive, and the handouts are fine. Do you think the subjects are going to be tested with the same depth as they were in law school?

Here's the problem, though. In my experience, a good third to half the questions on the practice questions have been things not actually taught by the lectures and their accompanying handouts. The first set of 17 and 34 questions I do for each subject almost always end in a rage because a bunch of my answers are usually correct but not in the very specific context, for which there is an exception included in the outline but not the handout. If this happens to the same degree on the real test, you better pray that the practice questions are accurately representing the type of material we will be tested on, or else there's a sea of exceptions we're not learning by foregoing the long outlines.

I feel like doing enough practice MBEs will teach you most if not all of the exceptions you need to know for the actual test. I personally could never get anything from sitting there and reading those long outlines for each subject (been using them as a reference), but if you guys can then more power to you.

[Tanicius]

Here's the problem, though. In my experience, a good third to half the questions on the practice questions have been things not actually taught by the lectures and their accompanying handouts. The first set of 17 and 34 questions I do for each subject almost always end in a rage because a bunch of my answers are usually correct but not in the very specific context, for which there is an exception included in the outline but not the handout. If this happens to the same degree on the real test, you better pray that the practice questions are accurately representing the type of material we will be tested on, or else there's a sea of exceptions we're not learning by foregoing the long outlines.

I feel like doing enough practice MBEs will teach you most if not all of the exceptions you need to know for the actual test. I personally could never get anything from sitting there and reading those long outlines for each subject (been using them as a reference), but if you guys can then more power to you.

You know it's been a long day when your rant about the MBE practice questions is primarily motivated by a non-applicable reason to fear the MEE -- which is that you can't do trial and error for the MEE because there are no multiple choice questions for it.

Woops. Time to stop listening to Jeffries for a few hours.

[071816]

I CAN'T FOCUS ON ANYTHING RIGHT NOW. I FEEL LIKE BURNOUT CITY IS SETTING IN. I THINK I'M GONNA TAKE THE SECOND HALF OF TODAY OFF. I DON'T KNOW WHY I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS.

[Tanicius]

I CAN'T FOCUS ON ANYTHING RIGHT NOW. I FEEL LIKE BURNOUT CITY IS SETTING IN. I THINK I'M GONNA TAKE THE SECOND HALF OF TODAY OFF. I DON'T KNOW WHY I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS.

You play EUIV? That's what I'm doing for the rest of the day. Multi-claim litigation and impleaders will have to wait.

[071816]

I CAN'T FOCUS ON ANYTHING RIGHT NOW. I FEEL LIKE BURNOUT CITY IS SETTING IN. I THINK I'M GONNA TAKE THE SECOND HALF OF TODAY OFF. I DON'T KNOW WHY I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS.

You play EUIV? That's what I'm doing for the rest of the day. Multi-claim litigation and impleaders will have to wait.

I don't play it, but I approve. I think it's way better to step away when feeling unproductive and do something fun than powering through the studying even when you feel like you're getting nothing out of it.

[bport hopeful]

I CAN'T FOCUS ON ANYTHING RIGHT NOW. I FEEL LIKE BURNOUT CITY IS SETTING IN. I THINK I'M GONNA TAKE THE SECOND HALF OF TODAY OFF. I DON'T KNOW WHY I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS.

I went to the library, then got a little drunk for soccer, and am back at the library. Needless to say, I am miserable and unproductive.

[bobanderson]

Hello all,
I really don't want to come off as a complainer, because overall, I have been somewhat satisfied with Themis' presentation of material for Maryland and MBE subjects. However, as I am completing the MBE contracts lecture I can't help but notice the fact that the Multistate outline has significant holes for certain topics (i.e. "risk of loss for UCC contracts"). Professor Geis is great, and he mentioned that risk of loss is ripe for testing, so I am a bit concerned that Themis has omitted it from the outline (or has hidden it in another area). This concerns me because I tend to rely on the outline to review because the handouts often cover information that is too basic and not really tested on the practice MBE questions. Has anyone else noticed this?

That's not my perception. I think the long outlines are WAY too comprehensive, and the handouts are fine. Do you think the subjects are going to be tested with the same depth as they were in law school?

Here's the problem, though. In my experience, a good third to half the questions on the practice questions have been things not actually taught by the lectures and their accompanying handouts. The first set of 17 and 34 questions I do for each subject almost always end in a rage because a bunch of my answers are usually correct but not in the very specific context, for which there is an exception included in the outline but not the handout. If this happens to the same degree on the real test, you better pray that the practice questions are accurately representing the type of material we will be tested on, or else there's a sea of exceptions we're not learning by foregoing the long outlines.

Yeah I'm trying really hard not to get too upset when I get a ton of MC questions wrong, because I feel like they purposely ask about picky distinctions as a way to teach us stuff we would otherwise never remember. It's annoying though because it is super stressful and frustrating to get a bunch of questions wrong in a row, particularly when they tell you you're wrong immediately after you submit the answer.

[northwood]

I CAN'T FOCUS ON ANYTHING RIGHT NOW. I FEEL LIKE BURNOUT CITY IS SETTING IN. I THINK I'M GONNA TAKE THE SECOND HALF OF TODAY OFF. I DON'T KNOW WHY I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS.

I went to the library, then got a little drunk for soccer, and am back at the library. Needless to say, I am miserable and unproductive.

then you need to take some flashcards ( or go print out 5 pages of an outline of your choice- return to the bar and as you casually resume drinking not more than 4 to 7 drinks flip through your notes.. and most importantly don't forget about getting some bar food so you can say you are having a nice meal

[Gotti]

It frustrates me when the lecture handouts don't follow the long outlines. I'm trying to make my flashcards using both and I'm having a hard time with it because of that

[071816]

Yeah I'm trying really hard not to get too upset when I get a ton of MC questions wrong, because I feel like they purposely ask about picky distinctions as a way to teach us stuff we would otherwise never remember. It's annoying though because it is super stressful and frustrating to get a bunch of questions wrong in a row, particularly when they tell you you're wrong immediately after you submit the answer.

I feel the same way. I'm just trying to take this process as a learning experience and not worry too much about the percentage I get correct. There's a lot to be gained from reading every single answer explanation as you go through the questions.

[jigglypuffdreams]

Yeah I'm trying really hard not to get too upset when I get a ton of MC questions wrong, because I feel like they purposely ask about picky distinctions as a way to teach us stuff we would otherwise never remember. It's annoying though because it is super stressful and frustrating to get a bunch of questions wrong in a row, particularly when they tell you you're wrong immediately after you submit the answer.

I feel the same way. I'm just trying to take this process as a learning experience and not worry too much about the percentage I get correct. There's a lot to be gained from reading every single answer explanation as you go through the questions.

Agreed, reading what you got wrong on the MBE questions is really helpful. Lately my new strategy to stop myself from getting angry is to let myself take tiny little breaks and cool down. I tend to give myself an arbitrary goal like "do 10 questions in interactive mode per half hour" so that I stay on track but still give myself time to process which questions I got wrong and why. I know I won't be able to take breaks like that during the actual bar, but I also won't have to read and learn from my mistakes in real time, so it evens out.

[iLoveFruits&Veggies]

What do you guys think of Anindita Dutta's CA Essay Review Videos and Review Sheets? I was thinking of using the review handouts to make lists of the top issues tested for each subject, then memorize the lists of issues, and then memorize the laws that go with them. Has anyone noticed any errors or important omissions on them yet? Not done with all the videos, but starting to panic and wanting to memorize something... even if it's just for a little part of my day, I really feel like I can't wait any longer for the memorization part. If nothing else, it will calm me down - hopefully!

[puttycake]

What do you guys think of Anindita Dutta's CA Essay Review Videos and Review Sheets? I was thinking of using the review handouts to make lists of the top issues tested for each subject, then memorize the lists of issues, and then memorize the laws that go with them. Has anyone noticed any errors or important omissions on them yet? Not done with all the videos, but starting to panic and wanting to memorize something... even if it's just for a little part of my day, I really feel like I can't wait any longer for the memorization part. If nothing else, it will calm me down - hopefully!

If you want to memorize something, memorize the paragraphs of law (you can paraphrase them) and have them available in your mind to just start typing them out.

[j1987]

Am I the only one that finds the Agency and Partnership lectures super boring? yawn.

[puttycake]

I have discovered the Worst Feeling in the World.

It's when you are doing a graded essay and you... finish in 40 minutes and spend the last 20 frantically trying to figure out what you're missing.

When there's too much to write, you at least can feel like you know what the hell is going on. You can try to prioritize certain things and dash to the finish.

But when there's not enough? You know that you are a total loser idiot who is going to fail the bar.

[Gotti]

It's when you are doing a graded essay and you... finish in 40 minutes and spend the last 20 frantically trying to figure out what you're missing.

why are you spending 1 hour per essay? does your state give you 1 hour per essay?!!?!?

[puttycake]

It's when you are doing a graded essay and you... finish in 40 minutes and spend the last 20 frantically trying to figure out what you're missing.

why are you spending 1 hour per essay? does your state give you 1 hour per essay?!!?!?

Yes. CA has a total of 6 essays at 1 hour each for the exam.