Themis Bar Review Hangout - Feb. 2016 Exam Forum

[rvp20]

With roughly 2.5 weeks left, I'm freaking the F out.

I "felt" like I had the material down and covered BUT I'm constantly hovering around 50~60% (sometimes below 50%) on the practice MBEs for the individual subjects. Going to take Milestone #2 tonight, so hopefully things get better. I think my problem is that too much of my decision making comes down to a 50/50 guess, which probably means that I don't have a complete and concrete grasp on the rules.

Thought I would just vent here. I'm so sick of hearing "everyone passes, don't worry" or "John/Jane managed to pass with two weeks of studying, don't worry."

What's the average score for you guys on the subject practice MBEs? Themis says the "goal" is 50%, but I have a feeling that's not sufficient.

Then again, I look back to the MPRE. I got 50~55% on the Themis practice tests but ended up with a score of 108 (top 10~15% percentile), so maybe Themis is right that 50% should be the "goal."

To answer your question, my subject-specific practice MBEs were usually around 60%. But I'm a repeater, so I had seen a lot of those questions before, albeit several months ago. To give you some advice that you didn't ask for - your scores on those subject MBEs don't matter. I mean unless you're getting like 30%, which clearly you're not. That's how you're learning. Your score is irrelevant as long as you're understanding and learning the rules that you're getting wrong.

But if you're understanding and learning, wouldn't your scores increase over time? If you are consistently getting around 50% doesn't that mean you aren't actually learning?

Thanks for the replies.

That's exactly my frustration..scores aren't improving at all. I'm trying to be optimistic that i'ts not a linear relationship but somewhat like a "step" or "stairs" where the average jumps after certain amount of practices.

Are you doing the mixed sets yet? Still getting 50s on those? I think the best tool for gauging how you're going to perform on the real thing are the Milestones - specifically the full one that's coming out on Sunday. If you do below 120 on that then you might want to start to worry.

Not doing the mixed ones yet...Just completed all the subject area ones. Thanks for the advice. I guess I have to keep haulin!
Going to postpones taking the Big Milestone for a week so I can regroup myself.

juniormint--did you take Themis on your first try? If so, what were your practice exam scores like?

[juniormint33]

With roughly 2.5 weeks left, I'm freaking the F out.

I "felt" like I had the material down and covered BUT I'm constantly hovering around 50~60% (sometimes below 50%) on the practice MBEs for the individual subjects. Going to take Milestone #2 tonight, so hopefully things get better. I think my problem is that too much of my decision making comes down to a 50/50 guess, which probably means that I don't have a complete and concrete grasp on the rules.

Thought I would just vent here. I'm so sick of hearing "everyone passes, don't worry" or "John/Jane managed to pass with two weeks of studying, don't worry."

What's the average score for you guys on the subject practice MBEs? Themis says the "goal" is 50%, but I have a feeling that's not sufficient.

Then again, I look back to the MPRE. I got 50~55% on the Themis practice tests but ended up with a score of 108 (top 10~15% percentile), so maybe Themis is right that 50% should be the "goal."

To answer your question, my subject-specific practice MBEs were usually around 60%. But I'm a repeater, so I had seen a lot of those questions before, albeit several months ago. To give you some advice that you didn't ask for - your scores on those subject MBEs don't matter. I mean unless you're getting like 30%, which clearly you're not. That's how you're learning. Your score is irrelevant as long as you're understanding and learning the rules that you're getting wrong.

But if you're understanding and learning, wouldn't your scores increase over time? If you are consistently getting around 50% doesn't that mean you aren't actually learning?

Thanks for the replies.

That's exactly my frustration..scores aren't improving at all. I'm trying to be optimistic that i'ts not a linear relationship but somewhat like a "step" or "stairs" where the average jumps after certain amount of practices.

Are you doing the mixed sets yet? Still getting 50s on those? I think the best tool for gauging how you're going to perform on the real thing are the Milestones - specifically the full one that's coming out on Sunday. If you do below 120 on that then you might want to start to worry.

Not doing the mixed ones yet...Just completed all the subject area ones. Thanks for the advice. I guess I have to keep haulin!
Going to postpones taking the Big Milestone for a week so I can regroup myself.

juniormint--did you take Themis on your first try? If so, what were your practice exam scores like?

I did, yeah. The first time around I took Themis and I stuck (mostly) to the suggested study schedule. I finished about 80% of the course and completed probably close to 2000 MBEs. My subject specific averages were almost all in the 50s, except Crim and Torts were higher. My score on the first Milestone was 47. I don't remember my score on the second Milestone. 54, maybe? My score on the "big" Milestone was 122. I scored approximately 121 raw on game day/the real exam - which is slightly lower than the national average.

I don't want to scare you because I know you're worried about being in the 50s, but I do want you to learn from my mistakes. I got REALLY attached to scores about this time last cycle. I would do an MBE set, get a low score and be crushed psychologically. That led to a total loss of confidence for me and I got apathetic and discouraged. I only failed the CA bar exam by about 10 points. If I had gotten a better mental grip at that point maybe I would have finished my study schedule stronger and passed.

Don't be intimidated by the practice. Don't be scared of the results. If you need a day to regroup that's fine, but you don't have the luxury of a whole week at this point. Do the big Milestone when it comes out, and then focus in on your weaknesses. Themis does a great job of breaking down where we're weak. Write those rule statements over and over and over again - IN YOUR OWN WORDS. Do one Mixed set a day every day from now until a day or two before the exam. Learn from the questions you get wrong on those. Don't let the scores get you down.

If I learned anything the first time around, it's that you have to own this study experience. You have to wrestle with it every day, grit your teeth and kick its ass. You cannot roll over to it. You cannot say, "I just have to get through this." Getting through it is not enough. Trust me - you don't want to have to go through this again.

[rvp20]

With roughly 2.5 weeks left, I'm freaking the F out.

I "felt" like I had the material down and covered BUT I'm constantly hovering around 50~60% (sometimes below 50%) on the practice MBEs for the individual subjects. Going to take Milestone #2 tonight, so hopefully things get better. I think my problem is that too much of my decision making comes down to a 50/50 guess, which probably means that I don't have a complete and concrete grasp on the rules.

Thought I would just vent here. I'm so sick of hearing "everyone passes, don't worry" or "John/Jane managed to pass with two weeks of studying, don't worry."

What's the average score for you guys on the subject practice MBEs? Themis says the "goal" is 50%, but I have a feeling that's not sufficient.

Then again, I look back to the MPRE. I got 50~55% on the Themis practice tests but ended up with a score of 108 (top 10~15% percentile), so maybe Themis is right that 50% should be the "goal."

To answer your question, my subject-specific practice MBEs were usually around 60%. But I'm a repeater, so I had seen a lot of those questions before, albeit several months ago. To give you some advice that you didn't ask for - your scores on those subject MBEs don't matter. I mean unless you're getting like 30%, which clearly you're not. That's how you're learning. Your score is irrelevant as long as you're understanding and learning the rules that you're getting wrong.

But if you're understanding and learning, wouldn't your scores increase over time? If you are consistently getting around 50% doesn't that mean you aren't actually learning?

Thanks for the replies.

That's exactly my frustration..scores aren't improving at all. I'm trying to be optimistic that i'ts not a linear relationship but somewhat like a "step" or "stairs" where the average jumps after certain amount of practices.

Are you doing the mixed sets yet? Still getting 50s on those? I think the best tool for gauging how you're going to perform on the real thing are the Milestones - specifically the full one that's coming out on Sunday. If you do below 120 on that then you might want to start to worry.

Not doing the mixed ones yet...Just completed all the subject area ones. Thanks for the advice. I guess I have to keep haulin!
Going to postpones taking the Big Milestone for a week so I can regroup myself.

juniormint--did you take Themis on your first try? If so, what were your practice exam scores like?

I did, yeah. The first time around I took Themis and I stuck (mostly) to the suggested study schedule. I finished about 80% of the course and completed probably close to 2000 MBEs. My subject specific averages were almost all in the 50s, except Crim and Torts were higher. My score on the first Milestone was 47. I don't remember my score on the second Milestone. 54, maybe? My score on the "big" Milestone was 122. I scored approximately 121 raw on game day/the real exam - which is slightly lower than the national average.

I don't want to scare you because I know you're worried about being in the 50s, but I do want you to learn from my mistakes. I got REALLY attached to scores about this time last cycle. I would do an MBE set, get a low score and be crushed psychologically. That led to a total loss of confidence for me and I got apathetic and discouraged. I only failed the CA bar exam by about 10 points. If I had gotten a better mental grip at that point maybe I would have finished my study schedule stronger and passed.

Don't be intimidated by the practice. Don't be scared of the results. If you need a day to regroup that's fine, but you don't have the luxury of a whole week at this point. Do the big Milestone when it comes out, and then focus in on your weaknesses. Themis does a great job of breaking down where we're weak. Write those rule statements over and over and over again - IN YOUR OWN WORDS. Do one Mixed set a day every day from now until a day or two before the exam. Learn from the questions you get wrong on those. Don't let the scores get you down.

If I learned anything the first time around, it's that you have to own this study experience. You have to wrestle with it every day, grit your teeth and kick its ass. You cannot roll over to it. You cannot say, "I just have to get through this." Getting through it is not enough. Trust me - you don't want to have to go through this again.

Thanks SO MUCH! That was probably the greatest advice I got all throughout this whole bar-exam-studying period.
Still got two weeks left so am going to hammer them through.

[Raiden]

Completely agree Junior Mint, definitely don't want to go through this again. We can make a lot of progress in this next 20 days, let's not waste it.

[Cshark440]

Just pulled a 119 raw on the Simulated MBE today.

Any thoughts on if this is good or bad?

I was planning on devoting the rest of my time over the next two weeks to essays while doing a few practice MBE's (50 or so) each day just to keep current.

Any body have opinions on if that's a good plan or if I need more time on the MBE with that score at this point. I have hardly done any serious essay prep at this point.

[swtlilsoni]

Do you think it would be a good idea to not learn Family Law & Conflict of Law & Wills, and just focus on the topics that could be on both, MBE and Essay, and just learn them back and front? If I stop learning more stuff, and spend the next 20 days memorizing my outlines for the MBE topics, would that give me a good enough window to pass, assuming I'd get the other stuff wrong?

Also, anyone taking it in Colorado?

[Gamecubesupreme]

40% on Milestone 1...51% on Milestone 2.

At least I'm improving. Kinda discouraging to know that I'm still behind the national average though.

[KTnKT]

Just pulled a 119 raw on the Simulated MBE today.

Any thoughts on if this is good or bad?

I was planning on devoting the rest of my time over the next two weeks to essays while doing a few practice MBE's (50 or so) each day just to keep current.

Any body have opinions on if that's a good plan or if I need more time on the MBE with that score at this point. I have hardly done any serious essay prep at this point.

I would say that is the lower end of "okay." Not bad, but not particularly good enough to let up on the learning. I scored 113. I'd consider that on the below okay. AM I was 62%, but PM, I was only at 50%. So I'm still planning on throttling it in MBE work the next two weeks. Figure with a +15 curve, I'm at 128. Minimum I need is 135, but I'd feel better with 145. So I need another solid 15 questions right. Doable, but I'll need to work for it. 119 raw and you're looking at 134. So you're right on the money... but I'd want a bit more cushion.

*The spread sheet that is floating around with scores from last July shows people passing or failing in the teens on the simulation. Most passers ended up with a 140-155 actual exam score. That would seem to indicated that either the Themis is more difficult than the bar, or they studied their butts off because of their lower sim score. But, either way, there wasn't a high enough sampling to be too positive of any particular correlation.

[Raiden]

Just pulled a 119 raw on the Simulated MBE today.

Any thoughts on if this is good or bad?

I was planning on devoting the rest of my time over the next two weeks to essays while doing a few practice MBE's (50 or so) each day just to keep current.

Any body have opinions on if that's a good plan or if I need more time on the MBE with that score at this point. I have hardly done any serious essay prep at this point.

I would say that is the lower end of "okay." Not bad, but not particularly good enough to let up on the learning. I scored 113. I'd consider that on the below okay. AM I was 62%, but PM, I was only at 50%. So I'm still planning on throttling it in MBE work the next two weeks. Figure with a +15 curve, I'm at 128. Minimum I need is 135, but I'd feel better with 145. So I need another solid 15 questions right. Doable, but I'll need to work for it. 119 raw and you're looking at 134. So you're right on the money... but I'd want a bit more cushion.

*The spread sheet that is floating around with scores from last July shows people passing or failing in the teens on the simulation. Most passers ended up with a 140-155 actual exam score. That would seem to indicated that either the Themis is more difficult than the bar, or they studied their butts off because of their lower sim score. But, either way, there wasn't a high enough sampling to be too positive of any particular correlation.

Do we we get +15 curve for february? I thought it was lower for February MBE.

[KTnKT]

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thiiiink it was +15 for the last two exams. That said... its no guarantee. We could get 10.

[RetakeFTW]

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thiiiink it was +15 for the last two exams. That said... its no guarantee. We could get 10.

Yea I believe that is right. With the trend in MBE scores declining for a while, I'd guess it stays around here. Disclaimer, of course, we should all aim as high as we can.

[left shark]

So while I am thankful for these MBE Analysis videos, and I am getting something out of them, I really and seriously need the lecturer to stop assuming I chose certain answer choices because of my "EMOTIONAL REACTION" and "feeeelings" rather than just poor recall of the freaking rules.

SHUT UP, BOB.

[Raiden]

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thiiiink it was +15 for the last two exams. That said... its no guarantee. We could get 10.

Yea I believe that is right. With the trend in MBE scores declining for a while, I'd guess it stays around here. Disclaimer, of course, we should all aim as high as we can.

well shoot, if we get +15, then scoring a 50% MBE would put you in passing range, sweet.

[milesdavisjd]

I've been lurking around here for a while - I'm a repeat taker in IL. My MBE score was actually pretty good, but I didn't do as well on the essays (I failed the whole exam by about 5 pts, which is annoying, I blame the MPT). That being said...

My advice - start focusing on the Mixed Sets NOW. Stop doing the subject specific MBE questions. There are 18 different mixed sets available - meaning that you have at least one (some days, two) that you can do every day between now and the bar exam. Remember how exhausting it was to do the Milestone exam? Try and get used to it. Do more questions in one sitting (34 is not enough to get comfortable). Prepare yourself to mentally jump around. You'll notice that sometimes the questions aren't clear on what subject they're testing (i.e. Con law issues come in Crim Pro and Civ Pro, Evidence comes up in about everything, Statute of Frauds and Contract Principles arise in almost every subject, etc). On the day of the exam, you could possibly get some concepts mixed up (i.e. valid defenses in Torts v. Criminal Law), because there's nothing point out that "this is a question in X subject", you're under stress, or you start to panic.

Like the previous poster said.... Don't be scared to approach the topics you don't do well in... it's the best feeling in the world to "face the beast" and tackle something that's been confusing to you. And don't let low scores get you down. Recognize your mistakes. Pay attention to how they are trying to trick you (If you have the time - ha! or money, read/do questions in the Emmanuel MBE book. It's very worthwhile, far more comprehensive than the MBE Subject Reviews done by Prof. Lisa at the end of every subject. The questions are super tough, but the Themis questions feel like a cake walk in comparison and you'll notice a marked improvement in your score). Review the ENTIRE area you're getting questions wrong in. For example, if you get a question wrong about an exception permitting you to use extrinsic character evidence, don't just review that exception... take 5-10 minutes to go over ALL of the rules about extrinsic evidence, and make sure that you see how the concept you got wrong fits into the bigger picture.

You can do this! We're so close to the finish line.

[Gamecubesupreme]

Does anyone have a good flow chart for character evidence? I'm getting so many questions wrong because I keep messing up about the rules and exceptions to when certain character evidence is admissible for civil and criminal trials.

[left shark]

I hear Barbri people say all the time that the MBE practice questions they get are harder than the real thing- please, please someone tell me that is true of Themis as well. Because I just got a question over the SUSPENSION CLAUSE. Which, let's face it, I'm not going to remember. I mean, seriously. WTF kind of question is that?!

I think I've passed the freaked out phase and have moved solidly into the angry resentful phase.

[juniormint33]

I hear Barbri people say all the time that the MBE practice questions they get are harder than the real thing- please, please someone tell me that is true of Themis as well. Because I just got a question over the SUSPENSION CLAUSE. Which, let's face it, I'm not going to remember. I mean, seriously. WTF kind of question is that?!

I think I've passed the freaked out phase and have moved solidly into the angry resentful phase.

I took July 2015 w/ Themis. While the Themis MBE questions are definitely not "harder" per se, they seem to test more nuance.

One thing I would really encourage people to do at this point is be practicing in Test Mode. Part of the reason the real MBE felt so hard was because I had studied in Interactive Mode and on game day I wasn't getting the instant gratification of knowing whether I got it right or wrong. You need to get used to that feeling.

As far as angry resentful phase - it's soooo easy to go there but try really hard to not to get attached to scores or questions. It's only going to hurt you in the form of lost confidence.

[left shark]

I hear Barbri people say all the time that the MBE practice questions they get are harder than the real thing- please, please someone tell me that is true of Themis as well. Because I just got a question over the SUSPENSION CLAUSE. Which, let's face it, I'm not going to remember. I mean, seriously. WTF kind of question is that?!

I think I've passed the freaked out phase and have moved solidly into the angry resentful phase.

I took July 2015 w/ Themis. While the Themis MBE questions are definitely not "harder" per se, they seem to test more nuance.

One thing I would really encourage people to do at this point is be practicing in Test Mode. Part of the reason the real MBE felt so hard was because I had studied in Interactive Mode and on game day I wasn't getting the instant gratification of knowing whether I got it right or wrong. You need to get used to that feeling.

As far as angry resentful phase - it's soooo easy to go there but try really hard to not to get attached to scores or questions. It's only going to hurt you in the form of lost confidence.

You make a good point. But what a dumb question, for real. Of course now I'll remember it because it was so ludicrous. Room that could have been set aside for character evidence rules is now taken up with enemy combatants and habeas corpus.

I left the interactive mode behind a while back- after a particularly horrible civ pro set, I decided I didn't need the right/wrong counter staring at me as I tried to answer every question. It seems to have helped- or maybe things are just sticking better. Would have been nice to hit the 60% goal, but c'est la vie. Next set will be better.

[swtlilsoni]

Does anyone have a good flow chart for character evidence? I'm getting so many questions wrong because I keep messing up about the rules and exceptions to when certain character evidence is admissible for civil and criminal trials.

I wanna try (this will help me remember too)

Civil Trials
must be an essential element of the crime

Criminal Trials
For D: opinion evidence: to show D's character is inconsistent OR regarding victim if related to defense
specific act: inconsistent with crime AND essential element
For P: can introduce opinion evidence of victim's character to argue against initial aggressor theory

*MIMIC is not really character evidence and is fair game*

am I missing anything

[juniormint33]

Does anyone have a good flow chart for character evidence? I'm getting so many questions wrong because I keep messing up about the rules and exceptions to when certain character evidence is admissible for civil and criminal trials.

I wanna try (this will help me remember too)

Civil Trials
must be an essential element of the crime

Criminal Trials
For D: opinion evidence: to show D's character is inconsistent OR regarding victim if related to defense
specific act: inconsistent with crime AND essential element
For P: can introduce opinion evidence of victim's character to argue against initial aggressor theory

*MIMIC is not really character evidence and is fair game*

am I missing anything

Looks good to me. This is how I remember it. Always ask first whether civil or criminal matter.

Civil: ONLY ok if an "essential element of the crime" (negligent entrustment/hiring, defamation, etc.); all 3 types (opinion, reputation, specific instances) OK
Criminal: D controls the door; must be pertinent to crime charged; opinion/reputation always ok but specific instances only on cross.

[left shark]

Does anyone have a good flow chart for character evidence? I'm getting so many questions wrong because I keep messing up about the rules and exceptions to when certain character evidence is admissible for civil and criminal trials.

I wanna try (this will help me remember too)

Civil Trials
must be an essential element of the crime

Criminal Trials
For D: opinion evidence: to show D's character is inconsistent OR regarding victim if related to defense
specific act: inconsistent with crime AND essential element
For P: can introduce opinion evidence of victim's character to argue against initial aggressor theory

*MIMIC is not really character evidence and is fair game*

am I missing anything

Looks good to me. This is how I remember it. Always ask first whether civil or criminal matter.

Civil: ONLY ok if an "essential element of the crime" (negligent entrustment/hiring, defamation, etc.); all 3 types (opinion, reputation, specific instances) OK
Criminal: D controls the door; must be pertinent to crime charged; opinion/reputation always ok but specific instances only on cross.

THIS IS AWESOME. Thank you!!

[juniormint33]

Bad study day for me. Can't get my head in the game. Womp.

[Gamecubesupreme]

40% on Milestone 1, 51% on Milestone 2, and now 62% on Morning Simulation of the MBE!

Still below the national average of 65% though...but at least I'm definitely improving!

[rvp20]

What do you guys think about the MBE Analysis Day videos? Worth the time or should I just review the questions by myself?

7 topics, 3 videos each for about 20 minutes, so that 7 hours of pure video. Maybe I should 1.5X it and skim through nonetheless.

[left shark]

What do you guys think about the MBE Analysis Day videos? Worth the time or should I just review the questions by myself?

7 topics, 3 videos each for about 20 minutes, so that 7 hours of pure video. Maybe I should 1.5X it and skim through nonetheless.

Go through the questions on your own. If there are any that you still don't understand, skim through the video til you find those explanations. 7 hours is a lot of time right now!