Colorado 1L taking Questions! Forum

[MumofCad]

Do you agree with the previous posters regarding BigLaw prospects coming from CU ITE?

I'd love to get a government position - maybe State AG's background and trying to decide whether it makes sense to build contacts by going local or better to just attend HYS. HYS grads seem to be mixed, with most only experiencing the biglaw job hunt and not gov't feeling like there aren't alot of options in Colorado firms for them. Is it just hard-going all around? A few advised I'd be better off going to DU or CU and landing in the top 10% versus going to HYS not knowing where I might land, and being out of contention if I land in the bottom quarter of the class. Curious how it looks from your perspective.

You don't know where you'll land at a CU either.

The point is not where I will land. The point is that you may roughly be in the same position for many positions being in the CU top 10% as in the top half of an HYS class, but the impact of not meeting that standard would not preclude some options being local as it might applying for a CO job from Boston. That's what I am hoping to get perspective on. How HYS grads are generally treated for PI jobs vs. CU grads in CO.

[the lantern]

I wouldn't think you'd have any problem finding a government/public interest job in Colorado (or surrounding areas) if you play your cards right and take school seriously. My evidence is mostly anecdotal from students that graduated this year, but it is all I have to offer you. Of course, keep in mind the people having trouble finding jobs aren't the ones telling their acquaintances about it (read: me) and the people who have found the jobs they want are highly likely to tell people like me about it. I wish I could give you a better response but that is a really difficult question to answer. Plus, I am only a rising 2L so my job search has only really just begun.

[MumofCad]

I wouldn't think you'd have any problem finding a government/public interest job in Colorado (or surrounding areas) if you play your cards right and take school seriously. My evidence is mostly anecdotal from students that graduated this year, but it is all I have to offer you. Of course, keep in mind the people having trouble finding jobs aren't the ones telling their acquaintances about it (read: me) and the people who have found the jobs they want are highly likely to tell people like me about it. I wish I could give you a better response but that is a really difficult question to answer. Plus, I am only a rising 2L so my job search has only really just begun.

Thanks! I really appreciate your perspective.

[Fischeriii]

T his is probably a late post but it is nice to get to know other law students in my area. Im currently attending NorthWestern California University School of law (online school-State of California accredited and accepted by the California State Bar) and would love to get acquainted with students in Denver.

[anb008]

Hey all:

I just got my application in for 2012 today!

I was just wondering: I know CU UG has a pretty liberal reputation. Does this carry over a lot into the law school?

[the lantern]

I would say that the CU and Boulder community itself is very liberal. The professors are mostly pretty liberal, but you probably wouldn't even be able to discern their political persuasions from class 99% of the time. The law students themselves seem to be a lot more conservative than I would have thought. While there is a clear middleish-left majority (after all, we are mostly 20somethings), there seems to be a sizable conservative minority.

[chem]

If any graudates, 3Ls or 2Ls can answer this, I was wondering how insular the Colorado (specifically Denver) market was to non-residents. How important are ties to the area? My fiance and I will be attending the same school, her for her PhD, so I want to stick around in the same area after graduating law school for at least 3 years. CU-Boulder is one of the schools we were looking at, but I was wondering just how difficult it would be for a non resident to get a job in the area

[holden147]

If any graudates, 3Ls or 2Ls can answer this, I was wondering how insular the Colorado (specifically Denver) market was to non-residents. How important are ties to the area? My fiance and I will be attending the same school, her for her PhD, so I want to stick around in the same area after graduating law school for at least 3 years. CU-Boulder is one of the schools we were looking at, but I was wondering just how difficult it would be for a non resident to get a job in the area

+1. I am interested in this as well.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Less insular. Denver is a progressive city and also a destination city; these factors are usually an indication of being less insular.

[Pufer]

If any graudates, 3Ls or 2Ls can answer this, I was wondering how insular the Colorado (specifically Denver) market was to non-residents. How important are ties to the area? My fiance and I will be attending the same school, her for her PhD, so I want to stick around in the same area after graduating law school for at least 3 years. CU-Boulder is one of the schools we were looking at, but I was wondering just how difficult it would be for a non resident to get a job in the area

I don't get the impression that ties to the area matter to any great extent except in terms of putting you in contact with the folks who are going to hire you (i.e., if nobody in the applicant pool knows anyone at some particular firm, they probably won't give any extra points to someone who grew up in the state as opposed to someone who didn't, all else being equal). That said, the vast majority of lawyers in the area are either CU or DU grads, so that may be enough to give local law school grads some extra points in the battle (all else being equal, of course), regardless of whether they are lifetime residents or just came to CO for law school.

The real issue is that it's not particularly easy for anyone to get a job in the area. Thus, your connections really do matter, but it's not necessarily because Denver is especially insular.

I also have no idea how being more "progressive" or being a destination city would have any bearing on this ("I used to be a real dick when I was hiring for the Atlanta office, but now that I've been transferred to a progressive destination city—whatever the hell that means—the relative weight I give qualifications has changed completely!").

-Pufer

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

If any graudates, 3Ls or 2Ls can answer this, I was wondering how insular the Colorado (specifically Denver) market was to non-residents. How important are ties to the area? My fiance and I will be attending the same school, her for her PhD, so I want to stick around in the same area after graduating law school for at least 3 years. CU-Boulder is one of the schools we were looking at, but I was wondering just how difficult it would be for a non resident to get a job in the area

I don't get the impression that ties to the area matter to any great extent except in terms of putting you in contact with the folks who are going to hire you (i.e., if nobody in the applicant pool knows anyone at some particular firm, they probably won't give any extra points to someone who grew up in the state as opposed to someone who didn't, all else being equal). That said, the vast majority of lawyers in the area are either CU or DU grads, so that may be enough to give local law school grads some extra points in the battle (all else being equal, of course), regardless of whether they are lifetime residents or just came to CO for law school.

The real issue is that it's not particularly easy for anyone to get a job in the area. Thus, your connections really do matter, but it's not necessarily because Denver is especially insular.

I also have no idea how being more "progressive" or being a destination city would have any bearing on this ("I used to be a real dick when I was hiring for the Atlanta office, but now that I've been transferred to a progressive destination city—whatever the hell that means—the relative weight I give qualifications has changed completely!").

-Pufer

Yes Pufet, because you are just like all of the other residents of Denver. I looked through the CU threads before deciding to go here and couldn't help but notice that you have been stinking them up for years. You graduated, please move on.

The point you missed is simple. Vast majority people who live in OKC are from OK. Vast majority who live in Birmingham are from AL, in Houston are from TX. What is the percentage of Denverites that are actually from CO? 65%??? Less? I haven't seen any statistics, but statewide the "non-natives" have overrun the state. In terms of the legal market, try to name another state school outside the T-14 that has more OOS than in-state students?

Pufet, aren't you from NM?

Its harder to have a backward "good ol boys" network in a progressive city where there is such a massive influx of new people. Sure, it probably helps a tad to have HS like network in Denver. But the Q was about if it would matter "as much."

Enjoy doc review, hope to see you out there in a few years.

[LeDique]

Yes Pufet, because you are just like all of the other residents of Denver. I looked through the CU threads before deciding to go here and couldn't help but notice that you have been stinking them up for years. You graduated, please move on.

The fuck?

ETA: While we're on the topic of "stinking" threads up, weren't you the one going on for ages about your plan to attend a t14 then transfer to UTK? And now you want to visit/transfer to Stttetson?

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

yes. what does that have to do with CO being a state full of newcomers?

[Pufer]

Yes Pufet, because you are just like all of the other residents of Denver. I looked through the CU threads before deciding to go here and couldn't help but notice that you have been stinking them up for years. You graduated, please move on.

I'd hate to see what you'd write if I actually disagreed with your conclusion. Step back from the ledge, buddy.

The point you missed is simple. Vast majority people who live in OKC are from OK. Vast majority who live in Birmingham are from AL, in Houston are from TX.

I'm not sure how you figure I missed your unannounced reasoning in my one sentence dismissal of your ultimate conclusion. Now that you have made clear your argument, I assure you that it is precisely what I presumed your argument to be in dismissing your argument.

There are at least three problems with your argument. First, your definition of Denver as a "destination city" appears to be wildly overbroad. In effect, you are making a claim that is true of any sizable western city. I will use two of the cities that you listed yourself in establishing this point.

The Houston metro area grew from 600k folks to over 6M in the last fifty years, and it was not because a few million people decided that they no longer liked the west Texas oil fields and dry-land bean farms they were living on or something. Similarly, metro OKC grew from 40k people to over 1.2M, and it was not because all the folks in the panhandle started reproducing like rabbits and moving to the city.

Houston and OKC have been the beneficiaries of the prevailing shift of Americans to the south and west, and the migration north from Mexico and other Latin American countries. Denver is no exception to this. While OKC does appear to keep more citizens of its state than does Denver, Denver is not anywhere near as full of out-of-staters as Las Vegas or Phoenix, or even Cheyenne on a per capita basis, and is fairly comparable to Houston (although the first wave of transplants hit Texas about a decade before Denver), a lot of California, and smaller cities like Albuquerque and Salt Lake City.

The issue here is that you're not really saying anything about Denver in particular. Denver is really no more a "destination city" under this definition than are Houston, Albuquerque, or Phoenix. However, how insular each of those cities' legal communities are varies significantly (Phoenix is extremely open, Albuquerque is extremely insular, and I understand that Houston is fairly Texas-centric; Denver is somewhere in the middle, leaning towards being less insular).

The second issue with your argument is that it infers something about the legal community from the prevailing demographic change. You're basically looking at a wild oversimplification of who has generally gravitated towards Denver in the last couple decades (where I presume you're getting your "progressive" label from) and assuming that the legal community has moved in the same direction. While it has moved in that direction to a certain extent, that's not the generation that is in charge of the Denver legal community.

As there are everywhere, the powers-that-be in the Denver firms are a bunch of 70-year-olds who have lived here forever (there isn't a particularly huge biglaw community here, so most of the significant firms are predominantly local). These were the folks who were joining the legal community in Denver back when there were mines in the hills, smelters downtown, schools under desegregation orders, and judges' homes were being bombed for standing up for civil rights.

The first waves of major migration came in because of the wealth of federal jobs in the area (7 military bases in the Denver-Colorado Springs corridor, plus the Rocky Mountain Arsenal (nerve gas) and Rocky Flats (uranium production)) and heavy industry in the city itself. As you would expect, a bunch of military families and folks working in a uranium enriching plant aren't the most liberal of folks. It's really only been since the 80s that the yuppies have begun to show up with their kids, and those kids are only recently starting to become lawyers.

The Denver-native who is a partner at his firm predates Denver being a progressive town or being anything but a dusty military town with a Purina plant and a bunch of smelting plants just north of downtown stinking up the joint, and the nation's primary nerve gas production facility and a uranium plant just outside of town, poisoning the air. This will eventually change (well, except for the Purina plant), but it hasn't yet. Legal communities in general are fairly progressive, but Denver's is, overall, no more progressive than, say, Phoenix's is.

Third, you're assuming that, even if Denver is a "destination city" and is "progressive" that the bar would accordingly react in some particular way. In places like Albuquerque and Cheyenne, however, experience has shown that the influx of out-of-state lawyers has caused the local bars to circle the wagons. Metro Albuquerque has grown at a similar rate to Denver and has what is probably a much more liberal bar than Denver does. However, they tend to see the outsiders as being one of two things: (1) opportunists trying to take over a rising community and stealing the bread off their tables, or (2) amateurs who are in Albuquerque only to get a few years of legal experience before moving on to greener pastures. Now, I think that both perceptions are nonsense, but they are present. Accordingly, Albuquerque's bar has a lot of very insular tendencies (ties to the community are basically the whole game for admissions to UNM Law and for most legal jobs in the city). A progressive destination city does not an open city make.


All that said, I still wasn't disagreeing with you. Denver is not a particularly insular legal community compared to Cheyenne or Albuquerque (or, I would assume, Birmingham or even many Texas cities). It's just that the lack of insularness doesn't have that much to do with the effects of the large migration of Americans west in the last half century.

The issue someone moving to Denver will have getting a job will be the fact that law jobs are hard to come by for anyone in Denver, not that Denver is particularly insular. Thus, as I said, your connections really do matter in getting any kind of job in Denver given the general scarcity, but not necessarily because Denver is particularly insular.

In terms of the legal market, try to name another state school outside the T-14 that has more OOS than in-state students?

I explicitly noted that where one went to law school—CU or DU—may matter because of connections. Where you spent your time before law school doesn't very much because Denver is not a particularly insular legal community.

Anyway, I'd argue that their OOS numbers are skewed. CU admits a lot of people who were born and raised in Colorado, but went elsewhere for undergrad/a first career. They count as out-of-staters on the stats, but they have a lot of ties to the community.

Pufet, aren't you from NM?

Yup. Going quite a few generations back on my mother's side. Not sure what role this plays in your argument.

Its harder to have a backward "good ol boys" network in a progressive city where there is such a massive influx of new people.

By the same reasoning, it is harder to have a backward "good ol boys" network in any city given the massive influx of new lawyers that have joined the profession since the 70s. Insofar as such groups exist anywhere, they do exist in Denver, and favor the local school. However, the "good ol boys" network isn't that big or influential a club any longer virtually anywhere because the legal profession has become so diluted.

Sure, it probably helps a tad to have HS like network in Denver. But the Q was about if it would matter "as much."

As I said, Denver is not particularly insular. We do not disagree on our ultimate points. I was taking issue with your reasoning, which I maintain has nothing to do with the fact that Denver is not insular (if I had known what an affront my off-hand comment would have been to your delicate sensibilities, I wouldn't have mentioned it in the first place).

Enjoy doc review, hope to see you out there in a few years.

The DOJ frowns on its lawyers doing doc review on the side.

-Pufer

[the lantern]

I'd say at least 75% of my interviews have asked me why I came to Colorado and whether I plan on staying. I would say that ties to the area are very important. You better have something good to say (not that hard to think of obviously).

[MeyerMom80]

I'd say at least 75% of my interviews have asked me why I came to Colorado and whether I plan on staying. I would say that ties to the area are very important. You better have something good to say (not that hard to think of obviously).

I currently work as a paralegal in a large Denver-based law firm, previously worked at a medium Denver-based law firm and have participated in many interviews with resident and non-resident first year associate candidates. The first question always asked of non-residents is "Why Denver?" I think the national firms with Denver offices expect lateral movement at some point. But Denver-based firms aren't just looking for work horses that will likely burn out in a few years, they are looking for associate talent that they can develop and good candidates to be their own future partners since they don't have the same deep benches as the big guys. Also, both firms are very partner heavy - people come and they stay and they mentor associates (so they want to make sure all that time is invested in someone who will stick around). Part of what makes these firms such great places to work!

[alphorn]

Colorado seems very generous w/ scholarships this year. Any ideas on why that might be? It is esp. puzzling given the current economic climate and the fact that there was word of an applicant increase last year when most schools saw reduced numbers. Hasn't yield also been increasing of late?

One other thing: Are there so few transfers out because everybody wants to stay or because the administration discourages transferring? Is Colorado one of those schools from which the horror stories originate i.e. profs are unwilling to write recommendations, etc.?

[CanadianWolf]

My best guess is that most select Colorado for a lifestyle that is not easily found elsewhere in the country. Also, I believe that it is easy to get resident tuition rates after one's first year.

[LeDique]

Colorado seems very generous w/ scholarships this year. Any ideas on why that might be? It is esp. puzzling given the current economic climate and the fact that there was word of an applicant increase last year when most schools saw reduced numbers. Hasn't yield also been increasing of late?

One other thing: Are there so few transfers out because everybody wants to stay or because the administration discourages transferring? Is Colorado one of those schools from which the horror stories originate i.e. profs are unwilling to write recommendations, etc.?

I know nothing about the scholarship offers - glancing at LSN, I don't notice a huge increase though in amounts. The increase in amounts that it looks like is happening is likely attributable to the anticipated rise in tuition.

I think the small amount of transfers is indeed because everyone wants to stay. I certainly haven't heard any horror stories about transfer the few times it's gotten mentioned.

[alphorn]

I know nothing about the scholarship offers - glancing at LSN, I don't notice a huge increase though in amounts. The increase in amounts that it looks like is happening is likely attributable to the anticipated rise in tuition.

What is the rumor regarding the tuition increase? When will the figure be released? Haven't the last two years witnessed pretty steep hikes?

[LeDique]

I know nothing about the scholarship offers - glancing at LSN, I don't notice a huge increase though in amounts. The increase in amounts that it looks like is happening is likely attributable to the anticipated rise in tuition.

What is the rumor regarding the tuition increase? When will the figure be released? Haven't the last two years witnessed pretty steep hikes?

I don't think there's an exact dollar amount out there. There's some rather public angling going on though: http://www.dailycamera.com/cu-news/ci_19893872

[yihdih]

Any suggestions on housing and finding roommates?

[alphorn]

I don't think there's an exact dollar amount out there. There's some rather public angling going on though: http://www.dailycamera.com/cu-news/ci_19893872

Thanks for the link.

[shock259]

It's unclear how much tuition may go up. As the article says, there is some scrutiny. That said, undergrad tuition at CU is going to go up a LOT this year (i'm too lazy to look, but I think it is 15% or so). The dean has told us he is trying to hold the line as much as possible with law school increases. I would be surprised if it went up more than 5% of so.

My $.02. No way to know, really.

[alphorn]

You don't know where you'll land at a CU either.

"Incoming second year students are invited to participate on the University of Colorado Law Review based on a write-on competition, which involves the submission of an original work written on any topic contained in the write-on packet which is distributed after spring semester of the first year of law school. The write-on packet will contain all the sources that may be referred to while writing the paper, and reference to any other source is prohibited. Papers submitted for the write-on competition are read and evaluated by 5 current Law Review members and given numeric scores according to content, organization, analysis, and mechanics. The Law Review will use class rank as a minor positive factor for those students ranked in the top ten percent of their class. Authors of the top-scoring papers are extended invitations for membership."

--LinkRemoved--

Only a minor positive factor? What proportion of law review members were not ranked in the top 10%?