Penn Students Taking Questions Forum

[random248]

Not to sidetrack this exchange, but...

How many people do you know that are hoping/planning on doing a clerkship after they graduate?

In general, do people most people tend to be biglaw oriented?

I agree with Georgiana to an extent -- I think people here are, overall, pretty biglaw-oriented. However, the extent of this does not seem to be any greater than what I see at peer schools. I think Penn gets a bit of a reputation as the place where everyone wants to go the biglaw route, and I don't think that's any more true here than it is elsewhere (with a few exceptions). I definitely know a decent number of people who want to do PI or government and, in all likeness, will stick to it because they chose to come to Penn because of scholarship money that would allow them to follow that path fairly easily. But, yes, overall, I think biglaw goals are more common.

I think that the majority of us would like to do clerkships if we can and, as Georgiana said, will apply if we have the grades come next summer. Penn is really making a push to improve clerkship placement, and it looks like it has gone up a decent amount in the past few years. I think that, previously, we definitely had lower clerkship placement than CCN and probably M/V. There are some schools I suspect we will continue to lag behind but, at this point, I think clerkships are a realistic option so long as you end up with good-but-not-necessarily-amazing grades. This is, of course, just based on 3Ls I know, and I'm sure CP&P or Penn 3Ls around here could give more accurate estimates.

Do you know any students that transferred into Penn/ what schools and stats they came from??

Looking at the list from last year, there was quite a range of schools that people transferred from. USNWR-wise, it looks like people mostly transferred from schools ranked in the 15-30 range, or from nearby schools ranked in the 50-70 range. I don't know about this year, but the two people I know who are transferring did 1L at schools in the former category. I think they are both around here, so perhaps they will stop by with more details!

[raveler]

I don't know about this year, but the two people I know who are transferring did 1L at schools in the former category. I think they are both around here, so perhaps they will stop by with more details!

Haha . . . you rang?

[Georgiana]

I don't know about this year, but the two people I know who are transferring did 1L at schools in the former category. I think they are both around here, so perhaps they will stop by with more details!

Haha . . . you rang?

She's magical!

[raveler]

Lol I wish. I'm just lurking TLS at work waiting to be taken to a coworker party.

[random248]

You're so trusty! Anything to add about transferring?

[raveler]

You're so trusty! Anything to add about transferring?

Hmm . . .

It's a HUGE pain in the ass because the timeframe is so compressed. If I could suggest anything, apply early -- not only does it increase your chance of acceptance, but it will give you much more time to transition to the new school. Penn is pretty fast turning decisions around -- I got accepted two days after my application went complete, although that took about a week and a half. But I don't think people really realize how difficult it is just to get your shit together for transferring . . . the documents you need to send are pretty similar to regular admissions, but you have a lot less time to put together your application. Then once you're accepted, you have a month or even less to find housing, plan a move, get your OCI firm bids together, do the law review write-on competition, pack, etc., all likely while you're doing a fulltime internship. This has been almost as bad (or maybe worse) than the school year, and I've lived in Philly before which makes the process far easier. I can't imagine trying to do this in an unfamiliar city.

In my experience, it does make a big difference what school you're coming from, at least at Penn. I was actually very surprised that I was accepted. I'm coming from a T25 and I'm outside the top 15%, even. If you're coming from a peer school you just need top third or even median grades. But most of the Penn acceptances I've seen from T2 schools or lower are well within the top 5-10%. Some other schools, like GULC and Berkeley, seem to place a little less emphasis on school rank and just want you to be top 5-10% no matter where you're coming from.

[Georgiana]

On a random transfer note, it seems the people that transfer into Penn do quite well. While reviewing the journal webpages (and facebook stalking the EiC's), I found that two of our journals are headed by transfer students. Rather impressive IMO.

[raveler]

On a random transfer note, it seems the people that transfer into Penn do quite well. While reviewing the journal webpages (and facebook stalking the EiC's), I found that two of our journals are headed by transfer students. Rather impressive IMO.

Oh, yeah, something nice about transferring to Penn -- you can write on to any journal through a separate competition for transfers, and you get equal status at OCI and in class selection. This isn't the case at every T14.

[schlizzle]

Thanks so much for answering all these questions - it's really appreciated...

How about... "Penn is not for students that/who..." ?

[Georgiana]

How about... "Penn is not for students that/who..." ?

Thats a hard question...

...hate city life
...don't like diversity
...realistically want to be a SCOTUS clerk
...dont want to work hard

more later maybe

[lostmyname]

But on the SCOTUS front, they just sent out a note in the morning announcement saying that they're starting a Supreme Court litigation clinic!

[law_hippo]

But on the SCOTUS front, they just sent out a note in the morning announcement saying that they're starting a Supreme Court litigation clinic!

More info please? What firm will be associated with it? When will it begin?

[Georgiana]

But on the SCOTUS front, they just sent out a note in the morning announcement saying that they're starting a Supreme Court litigation clinic!

Yes, very true. I think its getting to them that we haven't had a SCOTUS clerk in... a long time? I'm not interested so I don't check the stats, but its been a long while.

The supreme ct clinic does look cool though (because of the DC trips obv).

http://www.law.upenn.edu/blogs/news/arc ... _cour.html

Shout out for Prof Wax... she is awes!

Class description for the clinic:
"Supreme Court Clinic Professors S. Bibas and S. Kinnaird Yearlong: Fall 2009 and Spring 2010, 3 credits per semester, Mon. 4:30-6:30 p.m. Pre- or co-requisite: Supreme Court Practice and Process seminar, LAW 947-001, 3 credits, Fall 2009 Tue. 4:30-6:30 p.m. Clinic enrollment limited to eight students This year-long clinic will give students intensive, hands-on experience litigating cases before the Supreme Court of the United States. It is distinct from the pre- or co-requisite seminar, Supreme Court Practice and Process, LAW 947-001, which introduces students to the law, politics, and lawyering of the Supreme Court as an institution through a wide array of cases, briefs, and visiting speakers. The clinic, in contrast, will focus on the practical side of identifying and litigating real pending cases. In conjunction with the instructors and Supreme Court lawyers at a major Washington law firm, students will research and identify promising cases for Supreme Court review and take part in strategy sessions and conference calls, learning first-hand the tactical considerations that shape litigating positions and stances. They will then research and write first drafts of certiorari petitions, sections of merits briefs for the parties, and briefs amicus curiae at the certiorari and merits stages. Through intensive research, writing, editing, and rewriting, students will hone their legal-writing skills. Though students cannot argue these cases or sign briefs, their names will appear in appendices or footnotes to the briefs thanking them for their contributions. Students will travel to Washington D.C. several times each semester to meet with experienced litigators and watch moot courts and oral arguments in the cases on which they have worked. Students may take the seminar without taking the clinic, but if they wish to enroll in the clinic they must previously have taken or apply to take the seminar at the same time. They must be prepared to commit an average of at least ten hours per week to the clinic throughout the entire academic year, though the load will probably be lighter right around the final examinations period"

[lostmyname]

But on the SCOTUS front, they just sent out a note in the morning announcement saying that they're starting a Supreme Court litigation clinic!

More info please? What firm will be associated with it? When will it begin?

Adding on to the course description above, this is what they wrote in the announcement:

A new Supreme Court Litigation Clinic is being led by Professor Stephanos Bibas, a former law clerk to Justice Anthony Kennedy. Students taking the Supreme Court Clinic must enroll in a Supreme Court seminar before or at the same time as their clinic work. The seminar is taught by Professor Amy Wax, who has argued 15 cases before the Supreme Court, and adjunct lecturer James Feldman, who has appeared before the Court 45 times. The Supreme Court Clinic will work with Stephen B. Kinnaird, who heads the Supreme Court practice in the Washington, DC, office of Paul Hastings, to identify and research cases, write briefs, participate in moot oral arguments, etc.

[RandomPennDude]

But on the SCOTUS front, they just sent out a note in the morning announcement saying that they're starting a Supreme Court litigation clinic!

Yes, very true. I think its getting to them that we haven't had a SCOTUS clerk in... a long time? I'm not interested so I don't check the stats, but its been a long while.

I'm pretty sure we had one in the 07-08 term.

[ArmyVet07]

I understand Wharton's Lauder program is now taking a few law students. Do you know anyone in the program? It sounds like a great opportunity to increase one's proficiency in a foreign language, but I am concerned that the intensive summer language program following 1L would be a disadvantage because the students would not be doing anything law-related.

Also, is Penn a good school for someone who would like to work for the federal government? This could apply to any dept. or agency, but I'm especially interested in the SEC, GAO, or Commerce.

[Georgiana]

I'm pretty sure we had one in the 07-08 term.

You're right, there were two that term, there were none the 4 years prior (not sure about before 2003) and haven't been any since. Sorry for my mistake.

[Georgiana]

I understand Wharton's Lauder program is now taking a few law students. Do you know anyone in the program? It sounds like a great opportunity to increase one's proficiency in a foreign language, but I am concerned that the intensive summer language program following 1L would be a disadvantage because the students would not be doing anything law-related.

Also, is Penn a good school for someone who would like to work for the federal government? This could apply to any dept. or agency, but I'm especially interested in the SEC, GAO, or Commerce.

I know very little (aka nothing) about the Lauder program.

I will say that not doing legal work during the summer will hurt. Depending on the commitment required by Lauder you may be able to do the program and work as an RA or work for a judge. You definitely need to do something involving law during the summer.

Penn generally feeds to Biglaw/Law firm life, but I think the debt gets to everyone and we all want to make six figs. The government/public interest jobs are there, its just that few people go after them. The SEC is participating in our OCI this year, as are other government agencies/jobs (e.g. legal counsel for the house of reps). The process for government jobs is a little different from law firms and takes more of the self starter. People generally don't get the jobs through OCI, you contact the agency/employer directly with your information and go to them for interviews. Its still competitive though so it's not like the bottom half of Penn is applying for gov jobs, you still need good credentials and they prefer that you have more clinic/externship experience because there is more responsibility from the start (so spending the first summer learning a language instead of doing legal work would be a poor choice though languages do confer their own benefits).

[markymark]

thanks

[Georgiana]

I'll be a Penn 1L in a month and have two questions for you:

1. We have to pay to use the Pottruck Center right?
2. I saw on the goat that Penn is having off campus regional interviewing in LA and Chicago this year. My biggest concern about going to Penn is not having the opportunity of going back home (LA) or where a lot of my friends are (Chicago). Are a lot of Chicago/LA firms coming to campus for OCI (how many?), or are they mainly going to be at those offsite locations?

Thanks!

I'm so glad I get this question! lol

1) Yes you have to pay. I don't remember the cost, something like $200 for the year? I got a bally's membership instead because it is closer to my apartment.
2) I am doing the LA regional interview program and have 6 interviews lined up for that (there were 9 firms originally but 3 canceled so I ended up getting all of the firms that were interviewing). Not too terrible. Not sure I'll get a job out of it though. Chicago had 2 firms I think for their regionals... according to a friend of mine. As far as OCI, I bid on pretty much all of the LA firms (as well as the DC firms). There were 16 firms with LA offices coming. So with the 6 regionals that makes for 22 LA firms you could potentially interview with. I don't know the numbers for Chicago off hand but I would think it's actually less than LA... gut feeling? lol I don't remember seeing much of it when I was going through the list.

Edit: Counted Chicago firms, there are 8. And 2 doing regionals. So 10 total... nothing stopping you from contacting them outside of OCI/Regionals though.

[Kretzy]

Quick question: What's the campus GLBTQ community like, in size and visibility? Penn has a great reputation for being pro-gay, and I am hoping that is seen in its LS environment as well.

Thanks!

[Georgiana]

Quick question: What's the campus GLBTQ community like, in size and visibility? Penn has a great reputation for being pro-gay, and I am hoping that is seen in its LS environment as well.
Thanks!

Definitely... the LS is very pro-gay. I don't know if you need more assurance than that You can contact Lambda Law (the LGBT group) if you have any specific questions.

There are plenty of openly gay people at the LS and there are openly gay profs (Prof Wolff), deans (Dean Clinton), and admissions people (Bayrex). I'm sure there are probably others, I just haven't met them.

[Capercaillie]

Quick question: What's the campus GLBTQ community like, in size and visibility? Penn has a great reputation for being pro-gay, and I am hoping that is seen in its LS environment as well.

Thanks!

Notwithstanding Renée Post's obdurate love of The Raiders of the Lost Arse and Sperms of Endearment, Penn is staunchly neutral on matters concerning sexual inclinations.

[kurama20]

Quick question: What's the campus GLBTQ community like, in size and visibility? Penn has a great reputation for being pro-gay, and I am hoping that is seen in its LS environment as well.
Thanks!

Definitely... the LS is very pro-gay. I don't know if you need more assurance than that You can contact Lambda Law (the LGBT group) if you have any specific questions.

There are plenty of openly gay people at the LS and there are openly gay profs (Prof Wolff), deans (Dean Clinton), and admissions people (Bayrex). I'm sure there are probably others, I just haven't met them.

I've picked up on the pro gay slant at Penn. Is it to the point that you are ridiculed as ignorant if you are not of the same viewpoint or interested in GLBTQ issues?

[KaraThrace]

Quick question: What's the campus GLBTQ community like, in size and visibility? Penn has a great reputation for being pro-gay, and I am hoping that is seen in its LS environment as well.

Thanks!

Notwithstanding Renée Post's obdurate love of The Raiders of the Lost Arse and Sperms of Endearment, Penn is staunchly neutral on matters concerning sexual inclinations.

I can't speak to the law school, but having attended as an UG (class of '08) I can say that that's simply not true. The Penn LGBT center is very well-funded and UGs attended tons of events. There was actually a gay party circuit (Gay Friday's at Cliff's... don't know if that's happening any more) that attracted attention from the Advocate, which named it one of the nation's most gay-friendly schools.

In terms of school policy, the school is definitely pro-gay and also friendly to trans students - Penn is one of the first schools to allow roommates to be of mixed gender (not just co-ed rooms, co-ed floors.) in 2005. Obviously that wouldn't just benefit trans stuents, but I remember the trans rights lobby at Penn originally advocated that students should be able to room with whatever gender roommate they pleased. There's also co-ed restrooms in some school buildings.

So, in short... very gay friendly.