Catholic University Columbus School of Law Forum

[nativedelta]

After finishing my first year at Catholic and uncovering some really underhanded tricks they pull, I'd suggest not Catholic.

As a specific example, my lawyering skills class (2 credit writing course in fall and spring semester) is a core course for 1Ls. There are 8 sections of it. No person in any of the other 7 sections got less than a C- which is in line with the curve. My class had 3 Ds and an F. This grade distribution breaks every academic rule the school has; it breaks the teacher's syllabus promise for grading standards, and the administration gave the teacher a waiver to allow it with no questions asked. So 4 people in my section (16% of the class) have a D or F on their 1L transcript. Good luck to any of them finding a job. I am at the high end of the class and have brought this up to the two deans and have had a lot of double talk and a refusal to even consider redistributing the grades to reflect the school's policy.

Beyond that, Catholic's curve is pegged to a 2.8. That's a B-. Every other higher-ranked school in the DC area is set to at least a 3.0. That's a B. So as a 1L competing in DC, your GPA is going to look lower than every other student who is actually ranked at the same spot in the class. This is crippling. They do it to prevent transfers because every single year, Catholic loses its top 16% to better area schools. The dean of the law school claims that the other area schools are using an inflated grading scale, which is funny because for your 2L and 3L years, Catholic switches to a 3.0 mean to match all those "inflated" schools.

Scholarships--around 75% of 1L LSAT/GPA based scholarships are lost after the first year. Yes, you read that right. Catholic stacks most of its scholarship recipients into one or two sections. My writing section, for example has more than half of its people on scholarships as does the other section we are paired with in our classes. There are other classes with almost no scholarship people in them. So what that translates to is that if you stack a section with scholarship people, only 25% of them are going to be able to keep that scholarship by being in the top 25% of the law school class when compared to all the other sections. Therefore, MOST scholarships are lost. What do they do with all this freed-up money? They then redistribute it to the new top 25% of the law school.

This policy allows them to entice the non-scholarship folks who managed to do well to stay instead of transfer, and it keeps the smartie scholarship kids who because their section was stacked could not maintain their scholarships in school because their GPAs are too low to transfer. Thus, Catholic gets to entice newly-found smarties and retain screwed over original smarties to make a more competitive overall graduating class. It's diabolical. Of course the administration blindly denies this practice, but it's pretty obvious when more than 50% of your section has scholarships and 3Ls confirm the practice is in full effect.

In the meantime, after an exhaustive job campaign in Jan/Feb, I have a judicial internship this summer and was offered 4 others from DC Superior Court. So CUA folks can certainly get jobs, but it sure wasn't because of the career center. I applied to 128 judges without guidance to get my 5 nods. I must have stumbled on an application packet that worked.

I absolutely believe I made a mistake in choosing Catholic. That combined with how perilously close CUA is to falling into the 3rd tier should keep you away.

There is also close to no loyalty in the new alumni. The class gift this year, for example, had a whopping 11% of the class contributing one thin dime. I have had 3Ls in the law journals/law reviews tell me how much they hate CUA, and they're at the top of the academic food chain. Several of them have urged me to try to transfer if there's any way I can.

[Danteshek]

After finishing my first year at Catholic and uncovering some really underhanded tricks they pull, I'd suggest not Catholic.

As a specific example, my lawyering skills class (2 credit writing course in fall and spring semester) is a core course for 1Ls. There are 8 sections of it. No person in any of the other 7 sections got less than a C- which is in line with the curve. My class had 3 Ds and an F. This grade distribution breaks every academic rule the school has; it breaks the teacher's syllabus promise for grading standards, and the administration gave the teacher a waiver to allow it with no questions asked. So 4 people in my section (16% of the class) have a D or F on their 1L transcript. Good luck to any of them finding a job. I am at the high end of the class and have brought this up to the two deans and have had a lot of double talk and a refusal to even consider redistributing the grades to reflect the school's policy.

Beyond that, Catholic's curve is pegged to a 2.8. That's a B-. Every other higher-ranked school in the DC area is set to at least a 3.0. That's a B. So as a 1L competing in DC, your GPA is going to look lower than every other student who is actually ranked at the same spot in the class. This is crippling. They do it to prevent transfers because every single year, Catholic loses its top 16% to better area schools. The dean of the law school claims that the other area schools are using an inflated grading scale, which is funny because for your 2L and 3L years, Catholic switches to a 3.0 mean to match all those "inflated" schools.

Scholarships--around 75% of 1L LSAT/GPA based scholarships are lost after the first year. Yes, you read that right. Catholic stacks most of its scholarship recipients into one or two sections. My writing section, for example has more than half of its people on scholarships as does the other section we are paired with in our classes. There are other classes with almost no scholarship people in them. So what that translates to is that if you stack a section with scholarship people, only 25% of them are going to be able to keep that scholarship by being in the top 25% of the law school class when compared to all the other sections. Therefore, MOST scholarships are lost. What do they do with all this freed-up money? They then redistribute it to the new top 25% of the law school.

This policy allows them to entice the non-scholarship folks who managed to do well to stay instead of transfer, and it keeps the smartie scholarship kids who because their section was stacked could not maintain their scholarships in school because their GPAs are too low to transfer. Thus, Catholic gets to entice newly-found smarties and retain screwed over original smarties to make a more competitive overall graduating class. It's diabolical. Of course the administration blindly denies this practice, but it's pretty obvious when more than 50% of your section has scholarships and 3Ls confirm the practice is in full effect.

In the meantime, after an exhaustive job campaign in Jan/Feb, I have a judicial internship this summer and was offered 4 others from DC Superior Court. So CUA folks can certainly get jobs, but it sure wasn't because of the career center. I applied to 128 judges without guidance to get my 5 nods. I must have stumbled on an application packet that worked.

I absolutely believe I made a mistake in choosing Catholic. That combined with how perilously close CUA is to falling into the 3rd tier should keep you away.

There is also close to no loyalty in the new alumni. The class gift this year, for example, had a whopping 11% of the class contributing one thin dime. I have had 3Ls in the law journals/law reviews tell me how much they hate CUA, and they're at the top of the academic food chain. Several of them have urged me to try to transfer if there's any way I can.

[phishskier41]

Interesting read. I am a 0L attending CUA in the fall, also receiving a scholarship. I am interested in staying in DC and as I am wait listed at AU along with a million other people, Catholic is the best option for me. I was wondering if you had any specific tips for being successful at Catholic?

Thanks.

[nativedelta]

I'd say pray that AU accepts you off their waitlist. AU accepted me off the WL in late July, and I kick myself every time I think about it for not accepting. Catholic has one of the best recruitment and admissions staff I've ever seen. They do a terrific job of making you feel protected and special before they totally pull the rug out from under you as a 1L. Their goal is to keep you at that school. And they employ a multitude of tricks to make that happen. I mean they can't get a higher ranking if GULC and GW keep cherry-picking their best people.

Honestly, be the gunner. Start running at full force from day one. Don't slack off reading; don't skim at the last minute. Law school will be an INCREDIBLE time sink, so just go into it planning spend 2 or 3 times as long as you think you need on any assignment. You have to be in the top 25% of your class to keep that scholarship and to have a passable GPA. 25th percentile usually translates to a GPA around a 3.2/3.3, so even in the top quarter, your GPA will look low to employers.

If you're a day student, you don't have to worry about the writing teacher our section had who likes to give Ds and Fs; she's teaching night students next year. That's a huge plus. Otherwise, know that Catholic's new strategy is that it knows it cannot move up the rankings 40 spots to compete with GW, GULC, and AU, so instead it's trying to differentiate itself with its writing program. It is very difficult and will take more man hours as a 2-credit course than even your 5-credit courses. Walk in knowing that. They're even talking about extending the writing program to 3 semesters and upping the credit amount.

Honestly though, it's a lot of leg work without a whole lot of payoff. I got an A- and I'm not at all confident about my legal writing ability based on that class. It probably has to do with my particular teacher's style which was figuratively to throw you off the building with no parachute and hope you learned based on the sound you make when you hit the pavement. I'm really hoping my judicial internship will sharpen my skills.

So in summary, pray for AU waitlist and be smarter than I was about accepting. Otherwise, I'd be happy to meet up with you next year if I'm still at Catholic and chit chat in person.

[jerwood84]

NativDelta, thank you so much for your insight. That is some great investigative work on your part if I do say so myself.

[truthchase]

Nativedelta, when I was a kid I attended summer camp, where one of the counselors was a voice on Daria. True story, plus I know you really wanted to know that, you're welcome.

[nativedelta]

That's neat. There was always this rumor that it was Jeanine Garofalo, but I never quite bought that.

So was real person anything like the fictional Daria character he/she played? I loved that show. It's only on Telemundo now, and in Spanish, it just loses a lot of its edge...too much untranslatable sarcasm.

[debbiestevens]

After finishing my first year at Catholic and uncovering some really underhanded tricks they pull, I'd suggest not Catholic.

As a specific example, my lawyering skills class (2 credit writing course in fall and spring semester) is a core course for 1Ls. There are 8 sections of it. No person in any of the other 7 sections got less than a C- which is in line with the curve. My class had 3 Ds and an F. This grade distribution breaks every academic rule the school has; it breaks the teacher's syllabus promise for grading standards, and the administration gave the teacher a waiver to allow it with no questions asked. So 4 people in my section (16% of the class) have a D or F on their 1L transcript. Good luck to any of them finding a job. I am at the high end of the class and have brought this up to the two deans and have had a lot of double talk and a refusal to even consider redistributing the grades to reflect the school's policy.

Beyond that, Catholic's curve is pegged to a 2.8. That's a B-. Every other higher-ranked school in the DC area is set to at least a 3.0. That's a B. So as a 1L competing in DC, your GPA is going to look lower than every other student who is actually ranked at the same spot in the class. This is crippling. They do it to prevent transfers because every single year, Catholic loses its top 16% to better area schools. The dean of the law school claims that the other area schools are using an inflated grading scale, which is funny because for your 2L and 3L years, Catholic switches to a 3.0 mean to match all those "inflated" schools.

Scholarships--around 75% of 1L LSAT/GPA based scholarships are lost after the first year. Yes, you read that right. Catholic stacks most of its scholarship recipients into one or two sections. My writing section, for example has more than half of its people on scholarships as does the other section we are paired with in our classes. There are other classes with almost no scholarship people in them. So what that translates to is that if you stack a section with scholarship people, only 25% of them are going to be able to keep that scholarship by being in the top 25% of the law school class when compared to all the other sections. Therefore, MOST scholarships are lost. What do they do with all this freed-up money? They then redistribute it to the new top 25% of the law school.

This policy allows them to entice the non-scholarship folks who managed to do well to stay instead of transfer, and it keeps the smartie scholarship kids who because their section was stacked could not maintain their scholarships in school because their GPAs are too low to transfer. Thus, Catholic gets to entice newly-found smarties and retain screwed over original smarties to make a more competitive overall graduating class. It's diabolical. Of course the administration blindly denies this practice, but it's pretty obvious when more than 50% of your section has scholarships and 3Ls confirm the practice is in full effect.

In the meantime, after an exhaustive job campaign in Jan/Feb, I have a judicial internship this summer and was offered 4 others from DC Superior Court. So CUA folks can certainly get jobs, but it sure wasn't because of the career center. I applied to 128 judges without guidance to get my 5 nods. I must have stumbled on an application packet that worked.

I absolutely believe I made a mistake in choosing Catholic. That combined with how perilously close CUA is to falling into the 3rd tier should keep you away.

There is also close to no loyalty in the new alumni. The class gift this year, for example, had a whopping 11% of the class contributing one thin dime. I have had 3Ls in the law journals/law reviews tell me how much they hate CUA, and they're at the top of the academic food chain. Several of them have urged me to try to transfer if there's any way I can.

Wow-that's really shitty of the school to treat its students like that.

[nativedelta]

Oh Shitty doesn't begin to cover it. We also recently found out that grades aren't even due from professors until mid-June which means that you can't really submit a transfer application until the 9th hour. They don't expect to have our class rankings until MID JULY. Catholic's crappy GPA mean (2. makes your GPA look terrible when you compare it to the other 3.0/3.3 median schools in DC. So without the class rank, you're pretty much screwed. It just gets better and better.

[debbiestevens]

Oh Shitty doesn't begin to cover it. We also recently found out that grades aren't even due from professors until mid-June which means that you can't really submit a transfer application until the 9th hour. They don't expect to have our class rankings until MID JULY. Catholic's crappy GPA mean (2. makes your GPA look terrible when you compare it to the other 3.0/3.3 median schools in DC. So without the class rank, you're pretty much screwed. It just gets better and better.

Dayum! I hope Maryland is not going to be like that!

[hoffb86]

Oh Shitty doesn't begin to cover it. We also recently found out that grades aren't even due from professors until mid-June which means that you can't really submit a transfer application until the 9th hour. They don't expect to have our class rankings until MID JULY. Catholic's crappy GPA mean (2. makes your GPA look terrible when you compare it to the other 3.0/3.3 median schools in DC. So without the class rank, you're pretty much screwed. It just gets better and better.

Dayum! I hope Maryland is not going to be like that!

Debbie - Maryland has a difficult curve, B/B- (2.8 I think?), but I've heard they are pretty quick to get grades in. My friend who just finished 1L year, already has most of his grades, I think.

[debbiestevens]

Oh Shitty doesn't begin to cover it. We also recently found out that grades aren't even due from professors until mid-June which means that you can't really submit a transfer application until the 9th hour. They don't expect to have our class rankings until MID JULY. Catholic's crappy GPA mean (2. makes your GPA look terrible when you compare it to the other 3.0/3.3 median schools in DC. So without the class rank, you're pretty much screwed. It just gets better and better.

Dayum! I hope Maryland is not going to be like that!

Debbie - Maryland has a difficult curve, B/B- (2.8 I think?), but I've heard they are pretty quick to get grades in. My friend who just finished 1L year, already has most of his grades, I think.

Cool--do you get the sense that it is difficult to transfer out of Maryland? At least they have the new campus center which looks pretty sweet!

http://campuscenter.umaryland.edu/index.htm

[hoffb86]

Oh Shitty doesn't begin to cover it. We also recently found out that grades aren't even due from professors until mid-June which means that you can't really submit a transfer application until the 9th hour. They don't expect to have our class rankings until MID JULY. Catholic's crappy GPA mean (2. makes your GPA look terrible when you compare it to the other 3.0/3.3 median schools in DC. So without the class rank, you're pretty much screwed. It just gets better and better.

Dayum! I hope Maryland is not going to be like that!

Debbie - Maryland has a difficult curve, B/B- (2.8 I think?), but I've heard they are pretty quick to get grades in. My friend who just finished 1L year, already has most of his grades, I think.

Cool--do you get the sense that it is difficult to transfer out of Maryland? At least they have the new campus center which looks pretty sweet!

http://campuscenter.umaryland.edu/index.htm

I posted that link in the facebook group for the class of 2012, looks awesome! Have you looked at a place to live yet?

Difficult to transfer? I think it's all on you and how well you do, obviously. I mean, if your are talking in terms of the administration making it a miserable experience to transfer (like it is apparently at Catholic), I just don't see a top 50 school doing that. They will, from what I understand, try to entice their best students to stay, by throwing $$ at them. I have been pretty impressed with Maryland admin, and have heard good things as well.

[debbiestevens]

Oh Shitty doesn't begin to cover it. We also recently found out that grades aren't even due from professors until mid-June which means that you can't really submit a transfer application until the 9th hour. They don't expect to have our class rankings until MID JULY. Catholic's crappy GPA mean (2. makes your GPA look terrible when you compare it to the other 3.0/3.3 median schools in DC. So without the class rank, you're pretty much screwed. It just gets better and better.

Debbie - Maryland has a difficult curve, B/B- (2.8 I think?), but I've heard they are pretty quick to get grades in. My friend who just finished 1L year, already has most of his grades, I think.

Cool--do you get the sense that it is difficult to transfer out of Maryland? At least they have the new campus center which looks pretty sweet!

http://campuscenter.umaryland.edu/index.htm

I posted that link in the facebook group for the class of 2012, looks awesome! Have you looked at a place to live yet?

Difficult to transfer? I think it's all on you and how well you do, obviously. I mean, if your are talking in terms of the administration making it a miserable experience to transfer (like it is apparently at Catholic), I just don't see a top 50 school doing that. They will, from what I understand, try to entice their best students to stay, by throwing $$ at them. I have been pretty impressed with Maryland admin, and have heard good things as well.

Yeah, that's what I meant in terms of transferring (the admin making it hard on students/not getting in grades/not giving out recommendations,etc.)

I'm still looking for places, but am leaning towards the Tower (although I hear Federal Hill is awesome). Actually, Maryland is one of the nicest law schools I have visited (William & Mary excluded). The campus was at least a lot nicer than Wisconsin's.

[Bankhead]

NativeDelta, you should definitely transfer. I bet you could at least get into GW...

[Bevo06]

I'm wondering from this thread if one of you at CUA could give me some advice, then. I've been accepted and am planning to attend University of Baltimore this fall, but am on the waitlist at Catholic. After reading this, I feel like even though rankings wise, UB is only slightly lower (esp with new USNWR rankings) - I'd be better off at UB and possibly transferring. Grades are due early June and curving on a 2.8 - yikes!

Any advice? I'm thinking I should just stick with UB even if I do get the option......

[nativedelta]

I am interning for a judge this summer. Several of the 15 clerks I work with originally went to University of Baltimore and transferred to George Mason with no trouble. They seemed happier and less disillusioned with their 1L experience than I was.

However, it's never a great idea to go to a law school with the full intent of transferring since grades and the administration are so unpredictable. If you plan to stay in Maryland to practice, it may not be a bad idea; if you plan to work in DC or VA, it's a big gamble.

Oh, and there is NO rhyme or reason to who Catholic accepts. I'm a militant atheist with a 162 LSAT and a 2.76 GPA in Chemistry and Foreign Languages. The only softs of note are my volunteer work with immigrants and my writing and editing jobs. Not only did I get in 2 weeks after I submitted my application, I got a 1/3 scholarship. There are plenty of people in school with me who had better numbers than I and didn't get a dime in scholarship money and were waitlisted.

Just a note on CUA's continuing shittiness....I took my last exam May 8th. Exams ended for everyone May 9th. I am STILL waiting on all but one of my grades.

[hoffb86]

I am interning for a judge this summer. Several of the 15 clerks I work with originally went to University of Baltimore and transferred to George Mason with no trouble. They seemed happier and less disillusioned with their 1L experience than I was.

However, it's never a great idea to go to a law school with the full intent of transferring since grades and the administration are so unpredictable. If you plan to stay in Maryland to practice, it may not be a bad idea; if you plan to work in DC or VA, it's a big gamble.

Oh, and there is NO rhyme or reason to who Catholic accepts. I'm a militant atheist with a 162 LSAT and a 2.76 GPA in Chemistry and Foreign Languages. The only softs of note are my volunteer work with immigrants and my writing and editing jobs. Not only did I get in 2 weeks after I submitted my application, I got a 1/3 scholarship. There are plenty of people in school with me who had better numbers than I and didn't get a dime in scholarship money and were waitlisted.

Just a note on CUA's continuing shittiness....I took my last exam May 8th. Exams ended for everyone May 9th. I am STILL waiting on all but one of my grades.

That seems ridiculous. I'm going to ask my friend if she has any of her's yet. I'm not sure how long is reasonable to wait, but that just doesn't seem reasonable.

[AbsolutLax]

I really wonder if employers pay no attention to the curves at each school...this can't be true- Mason law also has around 2.85 curve which is looks horrible compared to AU's 3.4ish curve. When you apply, can't you just put the curve and/or your rank so firms know what is really up?

[hoffb86]

I really wonder if employers pay no attention to the curves at each school...this can't be true- Mason law also has around 2.85 curve which is looks horrible compared to AU's 3.4ish curve. When you apply, can't you just put the curve and/or your rank so firms know what is really up?

Yes. Or, at least, I think so.

Absolut, you and I are going to two schools with very "difficult" curves (Maryland is about the same as GMU's). AU's is highly inflated. Ultimately, the employers will demand to know where you stand in your class and will use that to compare you to students at other schools. If a school doesn't "rank" (or claim to not rank) then it is about your percentages (top 10, 15, etc.). Firms and other employers will know EXACTLY where you stand among your class and will use that as a comparison with other schools, not so much your GPA (which will be compared more within your school).

[ckalis]

I really wonder if employers pay no attention to the curves at each school...this can't be true- Mason law also has around 2.85 curve which is looks horrible compared to AU's 3.4ish curve. When you apply, can't you just put the curve and/or your rank so firms know what is really up?

In our firm's recruitment process, class rank is always featured and prominent. GPA is sometimes not even listed on the one page resume. I was told the varying curves between schools is part of that rationale.

[AbsolutLax]

Ok, that makes sense, thanks hoff/ckalis

[Bevo06]

Thanks nativedelta - yes, I'm not set on transferring, but I'm leaving it open as an option. I would be happy to stay at UB for three years, but that's funny you mention Mason because that is where I would be looking to transfer to, possibly.

Yeah, I definitely had the numbers for Catholic, so who knows!

I'm glad to hear that they (the UB transfers) had a good 1L experience.

[IwanaGoFishing]

I have to agree with the previous posters. I'm a rising 2E at CUA. Go elsewhere. The Lawyering Skills (LSP) classes are terrible. To get an A you have to write a pretty paper, they don't care about content, research, or anything relevant that will actually win a case. The director of the department is a joke and in tight with the Dean. She's untouchable. She can't lawyer so she teaches. She has little practical experience as a lawyer. She plays favorites and her grading is clearly reflective of it. From what I understand and have heard from the faculty, she was given her position because they were tired of listening to her complain about the former program, not because of her qualifications. In fact, after reviewing the resumes posted online by the other LSP teachers, she's the least qualified.

As for the other administrative issues at the school, it's 6/10/09 and I STILL DON'T HAVE MY FINAL GRADES!!

I took my last final over a month ago.

I'm trying to transfer to GMU. CUA is doing their best to make sure I can't.

Also, many employers shy away from CUA grads. With AU, GMU, GTown, and GW right here, why should they talk to CUA grads? I'm in the upper portion of the top 10% and I have employers stating that they don't recruit/hire CUA grads. Recruiters are having difficult times finding me interviews as well.

Oh, and as far as our office of career and profesisonal development goes, this was the subject line of a recent e-mail from them: "INVITATION: APABA . . . Law Students Know They Career Options!!"

Additionally, the vast majority of e-mails, workshops, and other activities offered by that office are only for "minority" students. Guess I'm on my own to find a job since I'm a white guy.

Of the 13 firms scheduled to appear for Fall recruiting this year, only 2 or 3 are from the DC/MD/VA area.

If I had it to do all over again, I'd go anywhere but CUA.

[Bankhead]

I think a while back I had mistakenly mentioned that our firm did OCI at CUA. We don't. It's a resume collect program. We might have at one point.