Illinois Law 1L Taking Questions Forum

[hkm6315]

how screwed are 2Ls and 3Ls this year? was 2L OCI a disaster? how many firms were interviewing? was there any 3L hiring? what's the general sense of everyone there? has there been any discussion about how recent graduates are fairing?

I don't think it hit the recent graduates as hard as current 2Ls and 3Ls. I don't think the awful job market fully sank in for firms until near the end of last year's OCI.

Well, I would like to first say that our recent grads just had a 98% bar passage rate which is higher than a bunch of the top 14 schools. Secondly "screwed" is a relative term. All law schools had their 2Ls and 3Ls get at least a little "screwed" because the economy is awful and many big firms have cut their summer associate program all together, reduced the number they are hiring, or did something like what they did last summer to many of the current 3Ls who had summer associate positions, and when they finished their summer, the firm told them that they were not extending any offers. So yeah, the terrible terrible economy and job market has had an impact on job offers here..... But it has had an impact on job offers everywhere. I was googling some of the firms that I was applying to and google was finishing my search with "mass layoffs" after the firm name. A firm that cannot even afford to keep lawyers on is not going to be hiring a ton of associates.

On the bright side, it is definitely slowly getting better. Firms are going to be hiring more 3Ls next year. I know a TON of 2Ls right now who squeaked in before the terrible economy problems and have jobs from their summer jobs, or who were offered jobs but were deferred for a year (they get paid during the year of deferment). So basically, things are starting to look brighter for hiring prospects next year.... Which means it should be fine two and a half years from now when you guys would be interviewing.

Yes, OCI was a little rough this year... But all that means is that we have to go out there and do more work searching for firms and applying on our own and not just depend strictly on OCI. I got half my interviews this way. Many of the firms I tried to apply to told me to apply in January because they are not hiring for summer right now. So yeah, it is diffent because of the economy, but there are still jobs to be had. I have friends with jobs in Chicago, New York, D.C, etc. for next summer. So all is not lost, it just takes a little more leg work and a little more putting yourself out there and bracing for rejections, because the positions out there are few and far between. BUT, this will not be a problem 2.5 years from now because things are already looking up for us for next year....

[hkm6315]

Sorry it took me a while to respond. Like I said, 2L year is crazy busy. The last few weeks have been a whirlwind. BUT, feel free to keep the questions coming. I spoke with some curren 1Ls who said they would be willing to answer questions on this thread as well.

[illini10]

I'm currently undergrad finance major at Illinois and I'm not sure that I want to spend another 3 years here. I do want to practice in the Chicago market. I am meeting with my prelaw advisor next week, should I also meet in person with the admissions at the law school?

[hkm6315]

I'm currently undergrad finance major at Illinois and I'm not sure that I want to spend another 3 years here. I do want to practice in the Chicago market. I am meeting with my prelaw advisor next week, should I also meet in person with the admissions at the law school?

^ YES. And you should get a tour of the school after you meet with one of the admissions office people. We are top in the top 3 for placing in the Chicago market along with University of Chicago and Northwestern. We may not be quite as highly ranked as them, but our students have a good reputation in the Chicago market as being intelligent and also relatable, personable, and well rounded people. I heard one employer describing us as having a "where the rubber meets the road" reputation.

Anyways, I will stop going on about how great we are haha : ) Honestly, the law school experience is totally different than undergrad. I barely ever even see undergrads because I live off-campus, the law school is on the fringe of campus, and most of us hang out at donwtown Champaign bars if we are going out and not Green street. One of my best friends here from Chicago did her 4 year undergrad here, then a masters in architecture, and now 3 years of law school. She loves it, and it is just a different type of experience every time.

[mako_shark]

I'm currently undergrad finance major at Illinois and I'm not sure that I want to spend another 3 years here. I do want to practice in the Chicago market. I am meeting with my prelaw advisor next week, should I also meet in person with the admissions at the law school?

^ YES. And you should get a tour of the school after you meet with one of the admissions office people. We are top in the top 3 for placing in the Chicago market along with University of Chicago and Northwestern. We may not be quite as highly ranked as them, but our students have a good reputation in the Chicago market as being intelligent and also relatable, personable, and well rounded people. I heard one employer describing us as having a "where the rubber meets the road" reputation.

Anyways, I will stop going on about how great we are haha : ) Honestly, the law school experience is totally different than undergrad. I barely ever even see undergrads because I live off-campus, the law school is on the fringe of campus, and most of us hang out at donwtown Champaign bars if we are going out and not Green street. One of my best friends here from Chicago did her 4 year undergrad here, then a masters in architecture, and now 3 years of law school. She loves it, and it is just a different type of experience every time.

As far as being a finance major, U of I is a great choice. Myself, I am a finance major and even though i'm currently a 1L and taking generic courses and won't be able to specialize until 2L, I've noticed a quite substantial amount of business/finance law professors among the faculty - ranging from bankruptcy, securities litigation and regulation, tax, corporate governance, mergers and acquisitions etc. There is also the Corporate Business Law Association which you can get involved in as a 1 L. As far as wanting to place in Chicago and concentrate in business/finance law, like hkm6315 said, Illinois has a great reputation and placement.

What hkm6315 said is also true about Law students tending to have our own separate law school experience (usually with a lot of functions in downtown champaign) and it doesn't feel like an undergrad experience! Definitely take a tour as well! and if you can sit in a class, maybe see if you can get one of Professor Hurt's Torts classes, I'd recommend it!

[Baylan]

I'm currently undergrad finance major at Illinois and I'm not sure that I want to spend another 3 years here. I do want to practice in the Chicago market. I am meeting with my prelaw advisor next week, should I also meet in person with the admissions at the law school?

^ YES. And you should get a tour of the school after you meet with one of the admissions office people. We are top in the top 3 for placing in the Chicago market along with University of Chicago and Northwestern. We may not be quite as highly ranked as them, but our students have a good reputation in the Chicago market as being intelligent and also relatable, personable, and well rounded people. I heard one employer describing us as having a "where the rubber meets the road" reputation.

Anyways, I will stop going on about how great we are haha : ) Honestly, the law school experience is totally different than undergrad. I barely ever even see undergrads because I live off-campus, the law school is on the fringe of campus, and most of us hang out at donwtown Champaign bars if we are going out and not Green street. One of my best friends here from Chicago did her 4 year undergrad here, then a masters in architecture, and now 3 years of law school. She loves it, and it is just a different type of experience every time.

As far as being a finance major, U of I is a great choice. Myself, I am a finance major and even though i'm currently a 1L and taking generic courses and won't be able to specialize until 2L, I've noticed a quite substantial amount of business/finance law professors among the faculty - ranging from bankruptcy, securities litigation and regulation, tax, corporate governance, mergers and acquisitions etc. There is also the Corporate Business Law Association which you can get involved in as a 1 L. As far as wanting to place in Chicago and concentrate in business/finance law, like hkm6315 said, Illinois has a great reputation and placement.

What hkm6315 said is also true about Law students tending to have our own separate law school experience (usually with a lot of functions in downtown champaign) and it doesn't feel like an undergrad experience! Definitely take a tour as well! and if you can sit in a class, maybe see if you can get one of Professor Hurt's Torts classes, I'd recommend it!

I can attest to the law school being on the edge of campus. I was staying close by (on Armory) when I visited a couple of weeks ago, and actually received a tour from hkm6315. I liked the facilities and got to sit in on a Contracts class on Friday morning at 9 am. Definitely pretty interesting - and didn't notice too much gunning. Liked the facilities too. The office was also helpful in working out a residency question for me - so I recommend a visit if anyone has a chance. It is well worth the time. I was in an out in about 2 hours or so, 9 am-11am.

[Rob Johnson]

How does it feel being a 2L with realization that you have incurred a shitton of debt and have absolutely no possibility of working in biglaw?

I never dropped a tuition deposit at UIUC so I didn't get into symplicity for this year, but I'd be willing to speculate there were no more then 50 employers at your TTT this year.

[hkm6315]

How does it feel being a 2L with realization that you have incurred a shitton of debt and have absolutely no possibility of working in biglaw?

I never dropped a tuition deposit at UIUC so I didn't get into symplicity for this year, but I'd be willing to speculate there were no more then 50 employers at your TTT this year.

??? If you read my above post, you will see that your above statement is false.

1. Not all of us have incurred a ridiculous amount of debt. Some of us have scholarships and help and are not that much in the hole to where we are freaking out about not getting big law.
2. MANY of my 2L friends DO have summer jobs in biglaw right now so the statement that there is "absolutely no possibility of working in biglaw" is false.
3. I know this may come as a shock, but not everyone wants to work for biglaw and I know a ton of people that didn't even apply for OCI jobs and are just taking the smaller firm/government job/public interest route.
4. Again, playing off of what I said in my above post, many firms have pushed their summer associate hiring back further or are just going to be hiring 3Ls straight out. With the economy, they were not able to hire summer associates, but many foresee that things will be turning up and that they will be able to hire associates by May 2011. (I have a 2L friend right now who was already basically told this by a firm she recently applied to.)
5. It is not the end of the world and we are not crying ourselves to sleep every night. Yes, some of us had to get more creative and reach out a little further with our job searches (ie. biglaw or small to mid sized firms from Chicago or different cities that OCI didn't bring in this year), but there are still jobs out there. Worst case scenario, we are just getting them a little later than usual. Yeah, some people are a little frustrated that the job didn't just fall into their lap this year through OCI like it would of past years. But that is the nature of applying for summer associate jobs during one of the worst economic downturns in the past few decades. As one employer interviewing at OCI for summer associate positions referring to the terrible economy said, "Congratulations, you just picked the worst year in the past few decades to be a 2L." Again, it is already looking up for next year, and people who will be reading this thread and applying for OCI jobs 2 years out shouldn't have anything to worry about. It is like this everywhere, but it is slowly getting better.

[Rob Johnson]

How does it feel being a 2L with realization that you have incurred a shitton of debt and have absolutely no possibility of working in biglaw?

I never dropped a tuition deposit at UIUC so I didn't get into symplicity for this year, but I'd be willing to speculate there were no more then 50 employers at your TTT this year.

??? If you read my above post, you will see that your above statement is false.

1. Not all of us have incurred a ridiculous amount of debt. Some of us have scholarships and help and are not that much in the hole to where we are freaking out about not getting big law.
2. MANY of my 2L friends DO have summer jobs in biglaw right now so the statement that there is "absolutely no possibility of working in biglaw" is false.
3. I know this may come as a shock, but not everyone wants to work for biglaw and I know a ton of people that didn't even apply for OCI jobs and are just taking the smaller firm/government job/public interest route.
4. Again, playing off of what I said in my above post, many firms have pushed their summer associate hiring back further or are just going to be hiring 3Ls straight out. With the economy, they were not able to hire summer associates, but many foresee that things will be turning up and that they will be able to hire associates by May 2011. (I have a 2L friend right now who was already basically told this by a firm she recently applied to.)
5. It is not the end of the world and we are not crying ourselves to sleep every night. Yes, some of us had to get more creative and reach out a little further with our job searches (ie. biglaw or small to mid sized firms from Chicago or different cities that OCI didn't bring in this year), but there are still jobs out there. Worst case scenario, we are just getting them a little later than usual. Yeah, some people are a little frustrated that the job didn't just fall into their lap this year through OCI like it would of past years. But that is the nature of applying for summer associate jobs during one of the worst economic downturns in the past few decades. As one employer interviewing at OCI for summer associate positions referring to the terrible economy said, "Congratulations, you just picked the worst year in the past few decades to be a 2L." Again, it is already looking up for next year, and people who will be reading this thread and applying for OCI jobs 2 years out shouldn't have anything to worry about. It is like this everywhere, but it is slowly getting better.

I'll just respond to corresponding points you made

1) That is good, if you a really large scholarship, then you are alright. But if you are looking at $100K+ debt, you are pretty much fucked w/o biglaw because you debt payments are just going to be to much to repay. Market in smaller firms is around $45K. Post-tax that is $30K (little more, but close). Good luck repaying $24K towards loans for 10 years with your $30K post-tax income. This really doesn't apply for those of you that have good scholarships and don't care about biglaw.

2) I'd say roughly 10% (at best) have SA positions at bigger firms from your school. Not good at all. But what I meant

3) This goes back to point number 1 & 2. Point #1 in that you would need a pretty good scholly to be OK with working at a smaller firm at graduation.

4) This is blatantly incorrect and just denial of how screwed you guys really are. 3L hiring market is virtually non-existent. All large firms hire directly out of there 2L class (although some top of the vault chart firms will hire a very, very small number of 3Ls-- but you have NO SHOT at those if you didn't do a 2L summer associateship anywhere-- just think about how much more competitive those are in comparison to 2L hiring where there are a lot of positions). Firms have a good reason for this- i.e. why take a huge risk and hire someone straight out of law school when you can try someone out for an entire summer and see if they are a good fit (and good worker). Pretty much if you didn't get a 2L SA, you aren't getting biglaw unless you clerk. But judges are going to be so flooded with clerkship applications this year with people who in normal years wouldn't have even applied. In fact, I read a blog where someone posted up a Georgetown email, where the school was essentially telling their student even if they have a summer job to apply for clerkships and that they are taking a huge risk if they don't. So you UIUC students that got no SA offers will not stand a chance in hell at a clerkship (I guess this could be more generalized to say any student that couldn't get a SA won't be able to get a clerkship).

5) See point 4. You won't get biglaw jobs later then usual. There is no denying that this was the worst year possible, but it's unclear as to what is going to happen in the future. Analysts predict that the entire big law firms model is undergoing changes and will likely never be where it was in 2007 (it was a pretty retarded model to begin with). While big law firms aren't going to go away altogether, it's definitely going to be a lot tougher to get those positions and UIUC will be a school that gets squeezed before t14 schools will. Sure it doesn't matter if you are on a full ride or a large scholly and want to work at a small firm for $45K /year, but that's not going to be feasible for the majority of the school there, which isn't on scholarship.

[hkm6315]

^ Not sure where you are getting your facts from. You can easily go look at NALP.org and find that small to mid sized starting salaries are strong and competitive with many big firms. Just to throw a couple at you that I know of since I am looking in Indianapolis for a job: Dann Pecar Newman & Kleiman, P.C.> starting salary 92,000 (28 attorneys); Hoover Hull LLP> starting salary 100,000 (14 attorneys); etc. COMPARE to larger biglaw Indianapolis firms like Bingham McHale> starting salary 100,000 (141 attorneys). So, to say that you only make 45K at smaller firms and that they will not provide you with an adequate salary to pay back loans is just not correct. Also, many of these small to mid sized firms offer a higher quality of life and MANY MANY MANY biglaw lawyers end up changing their careers and working at these small to mid sized firms because they value their quality of life (I know a handful of lawyers that have done this). Major, Lindsey & Africa is one of the biggest attorney search consultants and you can see them echoing the same sentiment in this link: --LinkRemoved--

Yes, you are right that it is going to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job without a summer associate, but a few are doing it. You are wrong by implying that we are all in trouble and going to end up begging on the street for change so that we can manage to squeeze out enough to pay back loans and put food on the table. Yes, it is a lot tougher right now. Yes, not as many people have summer associates as did this time last year. BUT, I am not sure where you got these 10% figures since career services doesn't even have those figures, and people are hearing back from employers every day. (I have a friend who accepted a biglaw offer two days ago.) AND, I can name a few biglaw firms that career services has recently sent us information on that have application deadlines that are coming up within the next month or so. Obviously these firms are still looking at people, or else they would not be asking us to send applications in this late. Granted, most firms are making their hiring decisions about now, but there are a few that are holding out.

SO, you don't have to work at a biglaw firm to survive and pay back your loans. It is not 160k a year like some Chicago and NY big firms, but 80k-100k is not exactly chump change and that is what many of these small to mid sized firms are paying (and you will probably like your life a lot more and want to stay there, 80% of biglaw associates leave within the first 5 years, that's no fluke).


Anyways, I appreciate your apparent concern in our future and our ability to find job placement, but I can assure you that we are all highly intelligent and capable law students who will eventually find jobs, be able to pay back our loans, and be ok at the end of the day.

[algren]

^ Not sure where you are getting your facts from. You can easily go look at NALP.org and find that small to mid sized starting salaries are strong and competitive with many big firms. Just to throw a couple at you that I know of since I am looking in Indianapolis for a job: Dann Pecar Newman & Kleiman, P.C.> starting salary 92,000 (28 attorneys); Hoover Hull LLP> starting salary 100,000 (14 attorneys); etc. COMPARE to larger biglaw Indianapolis firms like Bingham McHale> starting salary 100,000 (141 attorneys). So, to say that you only make 45K at smaller firms and that they will not provide you with an adequate salary to pay back loans is just not correct. Also, many of these small to mid sized firms offer a higher quality of life and MANY MANY MANY biglaw lawyers end up changing their careers and working at these small to mid sized firms because they value their quality of life (I know a handful of lawyers that have done this). Major, Lindsey & Africa is one of the biggest attorney search consultants and you can see them echoing the same sentiment in this link: --LinkRemoved--

Yes, you are right that it is going to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job without a summer associate, but a few are doing it. You are wrong by implying that we are all in trouble and going to end up begging on the street for change so that we can manage to squeeze out enough to pay back loans and put food on the table. Yes, it is a lot tougher right now. Yes, not as many people have summer associates as did this time last year. BUT, I am not sure where you got these 10% figures since career services doesn't even have those figures, and people are hearing back from employers every day. (I have a friend who accepted a biglaw offer two days ago.) AND, I can name a few biglaw firms that career services has recently sent us information on that have application deadlines that are coming up within the next month or so. Obviously these firms are still looking at people, or else they would not be asking us to send applications in this late. Granted, most firms are making their hiring decisions about now, but there are a few that are holding out.

SO, you don't have to work at a biglaw firm to survive and pay back your loans. It is not 160k a year like some Chicago and NY big firms, but 80k-100k is not exactly chump change and that is what many of these small to mid sized firms are paying (and you will probably like your life a lot more and want to stay there, 80% of biglaw associates leave within the first 5 years, that's no fluke).


Anyways, I appreciate your apparent concern in our future and our ability to find job placement, but I can assure you that we are all highly intelligent and capable law students who will eventually find jobs, be able to pay back our loans, and be ok at the end of the day.

As someone who works in Chicago with real estate lawyers everyday, and is a prospective 2010 student, I think you're absolutely correct. It's not as easy as it used to be, not by a long shot, but the law is hardly a dead profession that's fiscally impossible to manage an education for.

And really, all the negative talk from other posters about how bad lawyers have it, now and in the future, is for another thread. I've been reading along about the education at Illinois for the last couple of pages and its been informative thus far (thanks to those who have contributed, especially you hkm). Let's throw that other discussion over to this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =2&t=93322

NOW. I might have missed this in here (I'm still plowing through the beginning of the thread), but how're the facilities at Illinois? I know the law school is kind of on the edge of campus, but are buildings nice and taken care of? How about transit, can you get around w/o a car?

And finally, I have to admit I wasn't considering Illinois heavily, but now with the Fee Waiver for everyone I totally am. I'm curious if it was THE decision maker for other prospective students trolling around in this thread?

[Rob Johnson]

^ Not sure where you are getting your facts from. You can easily go look at NALP.org and find that small to mid sized starting salaries are strong and competitive with many big firms. Just to throw a couple at you that I know of since I am looking in Indianapolis for a job: Dann Pecar Newman & Kleiman, P.C.> starting salary 92,000 (28 attorneys); Hoover Hull LLP> starting salary 100,000 (14 attorneys); etc. COMPARE to larger biglaw Indianapolis firms like Bingham McHale> starting salary 100,000 (141 attorneys). So, to say that you only make 45K at smaller firms and that they will not provide you with an adequate salary to pay back loans is just not correct. Also, many of these small to mid sized firms offer a higher quality of life and MANY MANY MANY biglaw lawyers end up changing their careers and working at these small to mid sized firms because they value their quality of life (I know a handful of lawyers that have done this). Major, Lindsey & Africa is one of the biggest attorney search consultants and you can see them echoing the same sentiment in this link: --LinkRemoved--

Yes, you are right that it is going to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job without a summer associate, but a few are doing it. You are wrong by implying that we are all in trouble and going to end up begging on the street for change so that we can manage to squeeze out enough to pay back loans and put food on the table. Yes, it is a lot tougher right now. Yes, not as many people have summer associates as did this time last year. BUT, I am not sure where you got these 10% figures since career services doesn't even have those figures, and people are hearing back from employers every day. (I have a friend who accepted a biglaw offer two days ago.) AND, I can name a few biglaw firms that career services has recently sent us information on that have application deadlines that are coming up within the next month or so. Obviously these firms are still looking at people, or else they would not be asking us to send applications in this late. Granted, most firms are making their hiring decisions about now, but there are a few that are holding out.

SO, you don't have to work at a biglaw firm to survive and pay back your loans. It is not 160k a year like some Chicago and NY big firms, but 80k-100k is not exactly chump change and that is what many of these small to mid sized firms are paying (and you will probably like your life a lot more and want to stay there, 80% of biglaw associates leave within the first 5 years, that's no fluke).

Anyways, I appreciate your apparent concern in our future and our ability to find job placement, but I can assure you that we are all highly intelligent and capable law students who will eventually find jobs, be able to pay back our loans, and be ok at the end of the day.

Those mid/small firms that pay well are really excellent firms to work for. However, the problem is getting a job at a firm that has only 28 attorneys. Most of those firms don't hire right out of law school and hire people exiting biglaw (I mean literally everyone wants those jobs out of law school and if you can get one right out of law school take it and run -- just think about it, who would work 70-80 hours a week for $145-160K when you can work under 50 hours a week for $90K). Biglaw is essentially what I consider the equivalent to a frat hazing that allows you excellent exit options such as the firms you have pointed, governmental agencies, etc, etc. Also, unsuprisingly, those small/mid-size firms are very unlikely to be hiring in this economy (a lot of them are worse off then bigger firms). One reason to shoot for a large firm is because they hire so many students. E.g. Kirkland (Chicago) in a good year will take around 80 summer associates (and hire 78 or them). That's a lot of people. A small 28 attorney firm (assuming they hire straight out of law school) will be able to hire 1-2 max.

The $45K figure comes from what you would likely be making if you end up at what is typically considered shitlaw (firms around 1-9 attorneys that do personal injury/DUIs, and other rediculous shit you see commercial on TV for). That's not to say all shitlaw firms pay that poorly, but the ones you can likely get into right out of law school do.

[98234872348]

How does it feel being a 2L with realization that you have incurred a shitton of debt and have absolutely no possibility of working in biglaw?

I never dropped a tuition deposit at UIUC so I didn't get into symplicity for this year, but I'd be willing to speculate there were no more then 50 employers at your TTT this year.

Hi flame.

[ChattelCat]

I'll just respond to corresponding points you made

1) That is good, if you a really large scholarship, then you are alright. But if you are looking at $100K+ debt, you are pretty much fucked w/o biglaw because you debt payments are just going to be to much to repay. Market in smaller firms is around $45K. Post-tax that is $30K (little more, but close). Good luck repaying $24K towards loans for 10 years with your $30K post-tax income. This really doesn't apply for those of you that have good scholarships and don't care about biglaw.

2) I'd say roughly 10% (at best) have SA positions at bigger firms from your school. Not good at all. But what I meant

3) This goes back to point number 1 & 2. Point #1 in that you would need a pretty good scholly to be OK with working at a smaller firm at graduation.

4) This is blatantly incorrect and just denial of how screwed you guys really are. 3L hiring market is virtually non-existent. All large firms hire directly out of there 2L class (although some top of the vault chart firms will hire a very, very small number of 3Ls-- but you have NO SHOT at those if you didn't do a 2L summer associateship anywhere-- just think about how much more competitive those are in comparison to 2L hiring where there are a lot of positions). Firms have a good reason for this- i.e. why take a huge risk and hire someone straight out of law school when you can try someone out for an entire summer and see if they are a good fit (and good worker). Pretty much if you didn't get a 2L SA, you aren't getting biglaw unless you clerk. But judges are going to be so flooded with clerkship applications this year with people who in normal years wouldn't have even applied. In fact, I read a blog where someone posted up a Georgetown email, where the school was essentially telling their student even if they have a summer job to apply for clerkships and that they are taking a huge risk if they don't. So you UIUC students that got no SA offers will not stand a chance in hell at a clerkship (I guess this could be more generalized to say any student that couldn't get a SA won't be able to get a clerkship).

5) See point 4. You won't get biglaw jobs later then usual. There is no denying that this was the worst year possible, but it's unclear as to what is going to happen in the future. Analysts predict that the entire big law firms model is undergoing changes and will likely never be where it was in 2007 (it was a pretty retarded model to begin with). While big law firms aren't going to go away altogether, it's definitely going to be a lot tougher to get those positions and UIUC will be a school that gets squeezed before t14 schools will. Sure it doesn't matter if you are on a full ride or a large scholly and want to work at a small firm for $45K /year, but that's not going to be feasible for the majority of the school there, which isn't on scholarship.

Obviously you have some personal vendetta against UIUC since you've only posted on TLS seven times, and all seven of those were to post uneducated and disparaging comments about our school. Why people on this board feel the need to do this still astounds me. What do you get out of completely unfounded estimations of our OCI stats and saying unnecessarily negative things? If it's some sort of personal satisfaction that's just sick.

To get straight to the point, sure, OCI was a bloodbath this year, but it was a bloodbath EVERYWHERE. There are plenty of people at T14 schools with decent grades and NO JOB. I'm also not saying this to level the playing field between Illinois and the T14, I'm pointing this out because it's true. If you look in the TLS Legal Employment thread you will find plenty of posts by T14 students who struck out at OCI, after only 1 or 2 callbacks whereas in other years they would have had ten or more offers.

It's not just the top 10% of the class that has Biglaw jobs lined up for the summer.
I came out of OCI with a SA Biglaw position. I am not in the top 10% of our class, I also have work experience that could not be farther away from business or law. My point being that jobs this year are not only going to the top 10% designation with stellar resumes. I know a number of people outside of the top 10% that have accepted offers already, some much closer to the 33% cutoff than the top 10%.

It seems doubtful from your posts that you are actually a law student, and from your tone, quite unlikely that you went through OCI this year. While I applaud you for trying to do your homework about the future of Biglaw jobs, I wouldn't believe everything that "analysts" say about the downfall of Biglaw or much of anything posted on blogs. No one can predict what will happen to the Biglaw model, not even the law firms themselves. Neither you, nor anyone else, can definitively say that 3L hiring is a thing of the past. We'll all find out next year, I suppose. I find it rather ignorant to say that 3L hiring is dead like it's gospel when you have absolutely no facts to back yourself up. Look at all the new "provisional" hiring plans that have been implemented to take care of the class of 2009 (Drinker Biddle comes to mind). What's to say they couldn't do that for 3L hires? While I've certainly seen the logic behind your answer posted hundreds of times on TLS, the bottom line is that no one knows what is going to happen and it's absurd to think that law students on TLS can "predict" what Biglaw will do.

[hkm6315]

^ Not sure where you are getting your facts from. You can easily go look at NALP.org and find that small to mid sized starting salaries are strong and competitive with many big firms. Just to throw a couple at you that I know of since I am looking in Indianapolis for a job: Dann Pecar Newman & Kleiman, P.C.> starting salary 92,000 (28 attorneys); Hoover Hull LLP> starting salary 100,000 (14 attorneys); etc. COMPARE to larger biglaw Indianapolis firms like Bingham McHale> starting salary 100,000 (141 attorneys). So, to say that you only make 45K at smaller firms and that they will not provide you with an adequate salary to pay back loans is just not correct. Also, many of these small to mid sized firms offer a higher quality of life and MANY MANY MANY biglaw lawyers end up changing their careers and working at these small to mid sized firms because they value their quality of life (I know a handful of lawyers that have done this). Major, Lindsey & Africa is one of the biggest attorney search consultants and you can see them echoing the same sentiment in this link: --LinkRemoved--

Yes, you are right that it is going to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job without a summer associate, but a few are doing it. You are wrong by implying that we are all in trouble and going to end up begging on the street for change so that we can manage to squeeze out enough to pay back loans and put food on the table. Yes, it is a lot tougher right now. Yes, not as many people have summer associates as did this time last year. BUT, I am not sure where you got these 10% figures since career services doesn't even have those figures, and people are hearing back from employers every day. (I have a friend who accepted a biglaw offer two days ago.) AND, I can name a few biglaw firms that career services has recently sent us information on that have application deadlines that are coming up within the next month or so. Obviously these firms are still looking at people, or else they would not be asking us to send applications in this late. Granted, most firms are making their hiring decisions about now, but there are a few that are holding out.

SO, you don't have to work at a biglaw firm to survive and pay back your loans. It is not 160k a year like some Chicago and NY big firms, but 80k-100k is not exactly chump change and that is what many of these small to mid sized firms are paying (and you will probably like your life a lot more and want to stay there, 80% of biglaw associates leave within the first 5 years, that's no fluke).

Anyways, I appreciate your apparent concern in our future and our ability to find job placement, but I can assure you that we are all highly intelligent and capable law students who will eventually find jobs, be able to pay back our loans, and be ok at the end of the day.

Those mid/small firms that pay well are really excellent firms to work for. However, the problem is getting a job at a firm that has only 28 attorneys. Most of those firms don't hire right out of law school and hire people exiting biglaw (I mean literally everyone wants those jobs out of law school and if you can get one right out of law school take it and run -- just think about it, who would work 70-80 hours a week for $145-160K when you can work under 50 hours a week for $90K). Biglaw is essentially what I consider the equivalent to a frat hazing that allows you excellent exit options such as the firms you have pointed, governmental agencies, etc, etc. Also, unsuprisingly, those small/mid-size firms are very unlikely to be hiring in this economy (a lot of them are worse off then bigger firms). One reason to shoot for a large firm is because they hire so many students. E.g. Kirkland (Chicago) in a good year will take around 80 summer associates (and hire 78 or them). That's a lot of people. A small 28 attorney firm (assuming they hire straight out of law school) will be able to hire 1-2 max.

The $45K figure comes from what you would likely be making if you end up at what is typically considered shitlaw (firms around 1-9 attorneys that do personal injury/DUIs, and other rediculous shit you see commercial on TV for). That's not to say all shitlaw firms pay that poorly, but the ones you can likely get into right out of law school do.

Sorry, I am going to have to call you out on this information yet again. Again, I am not sure where you are getting your information from concerning these small to mid sized firms. I have interviewed with firms that have 15-40ish attorneys and met with their first year associates that were summer associates this past summer. These firms told me that they hire their two associates that work for them over the summer and I PHYSICALLY MET THEM. Yes, they do only hire 2, but you will also find dozens of these small to mid sized firms to apply to and not nearly as many biglaw firms. Other small to mid sized firms I have spoken with told me that they hire their summer associates after they are done with their summers and you can just see it by looking on their websites at the graduation dates of the people who work there (ie. J.D. 2008, J.D. 2009). These firms operate very similar to biglaw in that they offer their summer associates positions at the end of their summers. They just bring on fewer associates because obviously, they are smaller and don't need as many. Yes, these are amazing jobs to get. Yes, they do hire lateral transfers from biglaw firms. BUT, they also hire their summer associates just like biglaw. There are just fewer summer associate positions, but there are also many more of these small to midsized firms to apply to than biglaw firms in any given city. You just have to search for them and do your homework. Luckily, Illinois is a T23 school so when we apply to small to mid sized firms in different cities that is recognized and we get a response.

Small to mid sized summer associate positions are also are not heavily advertised jobs. You have to go to places like Martindale Hubbel and other websites that list firms, go to their website, and sometimes even call them to find out about their summer associate positions. Again, this is what I referred to in earlier posts as "having to go out on your own and do more leg work" to find a job. SO, I echo the above poster's call for you to take this to another thread if you want to continue talking about whatever it is you want to talk about because it is not relevant here.

[SamSeaborn2016]

hkm6315,
Thanks for taking the time and providing some great insight.




robjohnson,
Take a hike. We get it.

[Rob Johnson]

Obviously you have some personal vendetta against UIUC since you've only posted on TLS seven times, and all seven of those were to post uneducated and disparaging comments about our school. Why people on this board feel the need to do this still astounds me. What do you get out of completely unfounded estimations of our OCI stats and saying unnecessarily negative things? If it's some sort of personal satisfaction that's just sick.

I wouldn't go as far as a personal vendetta against UIUC. I actually thought it was a good school and had applied there last year. How deceptive they are made me mad, and I felt the need to disparage a few prospective students from going to a TTT.

To get straight to the point, sure, OCI was a bloodbath this year, but it was a bloodbath EVERYWHERE.

This year was unquestionably worse then most, but far form a bloodbath at my school. Our numbers aren't in yet for my school but I'd speculate that around half the class at my school got offers in large firms. Firms were really slow and cautious as analysts had predicted, but I can say there are more people at my school that I know with offer then without offers. The bloodbath was really at schools below the top 12, and really, really bad past the t14 (with GULC & Cornell getting hit decently hard).

It's not just the top 10% of the class that has Biglaw jobs lined up for the summer.
I came out of OCI with a SA Biglaw position. I am not in the top 10% of our class, I also have work experience that could not be farther away from business or law. My point being that jobs this year are not only going to the top 10% designation with stellar resumes. I know a number of people outside of the top 10% that have accepted offers already, some much closer to the 33% cutoff than the top 10%.

Re-read my post. I never said top 10%. I said 10% total. However that number may be derived from your class. Firms were really looking for "fit" this year and if you were at top 25% but fit better then someone at top 5%, you got picked. Congrats on your offer.

It seems doubtful from your posts that you are actually a law student, and from your tone, quite unlikely that you went through OCI this year.

Actually, I'm a 2L at MVPB this year. I transferred up from a TTT w/ my lucky acceptance coming in literally days before my UIUC acceptance. I honestly doubt I would have left to attend UIUC but if I had I think it might have been the worst decision of my life considering the additional debt I would have incurred and the low likelihood of actually getting an offer this year. (Here it is a little better because in the last 5 years there has literally been 1 person who transferred in and didn't receive honors at graduation and that's a selling point to firms because they recognize that odds are that our grades won't drop as a result of the transfer. That's not something that can be said if I had transferred to UIUC).

I wouldn't believe everything that "analysts" say about the downfall of Biglaw or much of anything posted on blogs.

I think this is total utter bullshit. Every single word that came out of this analysts mouth with predictions about the Chicago market so far have been dead on. It's fucking scary how accurately this guy predicted things would happen. From firms being conservative with their offers, moving slowly in making offers and being really caution, to how many offers people would get were all literally dead on.

No one can predict what will happen to the Biglaw model, not even the law firms themselves.

This is true. The analyst said that the biglaw model is going to undergo some serious changes. But it is still really unclear as to what is going to happen. Personally, I think it was a stupid and unsustainable model to begin with and it is going to get wiped out. It's probably good thing for people who want to attend law school in another 5-10 year because if that happens law schools will be forced to stop raising tution rates because no one will attend otherwise (e.g. who in their right mind would risk $200K to go to a top school with only a 10% shot at making a decent return on your investment).

But as for attend UIUC and paying over $100K to attend, that's a pretty big fucking risk. I mean you even said no one can predict what is going to happen and if you are attending law school with the belief that the biglaw model will survive then you are taking one hell of a gamble.

Neither you, nor anyone else, can definitively say that 3L hiring is a thing of the past. We'll all find out next year, I suppose. I find it rather ignorant to say that 3L hiring is dead like it's gospel when you have absolutely no facts to back yourself up. Look at all the new "provisional" hiring plans that have been implemented to take care of the class of 2009 (Drinker Biddle comes to mind). What's to say they couldn't do that for 3L hires?

Why would they hire 3Ls? It's not a charity because they feel bad for our class (i.e. the c/o 2011). Here's a newsflash, they don't care about people who didn't make it this year. Partners are there to put money in their pocket. Hiring 3Ls makes no sense from their standpoint when they can hire 2Ls as summer associates and "try them out before they buy them." If it helps people at your school to sleep at night to think that they will feel bad for the c/o 2011 and will hire them next year then go for it, but it's still not happening.

[Rob Johnson]

^ Not sure where you are getting your facts from. You can easily go look at NALP.org and find that small to mid sized starting salaries are strong and competitive with many big firms. Just to throw a couple at you that I know of since I am looking in Indianapolis for a job: Dann Pecar Newman & Kleiman, P.C.> starting salary 92,000 (28 attorneys); Hoover Hull LLP> starting salary 100,000 (14 attorneys); etc. COMPARE to larger biglaw Indianapolis firms like Bingham McHale> starting salary 100,000 (141 attorneys). So, to say that you only make 45K at smaller firms and that they will not provide you with an adequate salary to pay back loans is just not correct. Also, many of these small to mid sized firms offer a higher quality of life and MANY MANY MANY biglaw lawyers end up changing their careers and working at these small to mid sized firms because they value their quality of life (I know a handful of lawyers that have done this). Major, Lindsey & Africa is one of the biggest attorney search consultants and you can see them echoing the same sentiment in this link: --LinkRemoved--

Yes, you are right that it is going to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job without a summer associate, but a few are doing it. You are wrong by implying that we are all in trouble and going to end up begging on the street for change so that we can manage to squeeze out enough to pay back loans and put food on the table. Yes, it is a lot tougher right now. Yes, not as many people have summer associates as did this time last year. BUT, I am not sure where you got these 10% figures since career services doesn't even have those figures, and people are hearing back from employers every day. (I have a friend who accepted a biglaw offer two days ago.) AND, I can name a few biglaw firms that career services has recently sent us information on that have application deadlines that are coming up within the next month or so. Obviously these firms are still looking at people, or else they would not be asking us to send applications in this late. Granted, most firms are making their hiring decisions about now, but there are a few that are holding out.

SO, you don't have to work at a biglaw firm to survive and pay back your loans. It is not 160k a year like some Chicago and NY big firms, but 80k-100k is not exactly chump change and that is what many of these small to mid sized firms are paying (and you will probably like your life a lot more and want to stay there, 80% of biglaw associates leave within the first 5 years, that's no fluke).

Anyways, I appreciate your apparent concern in our future and our ability to find job placement, but I can assure you that we are all highly intelligent and capable law students who will eventually find jobs, be able to pay back our loans, and be ok at the end of the day.

Those mid/small firms that pay well are really excellent firms to work for. However, the problem is getting a job at a firm that has only 28 attorneys. Most of those firms don't hire right out of law school and hire people exiting biglaw (I mean literally everyone wants those jobs out of law school and if you can get one right out of law school take it and run -- just think about it, who would work 70-80 hours a week for $145-160K when you can work under 50 hours a week for $90K). Biglaw is essentially what I consider the equivalent to a frat hazing that allows you excellent exit options such as the firms you have pointed, governmental agencies, etc, etc. Also, unsuprisingly, those small/mid-size firms are very unlikely to be hiring in this economy (a lot of them are worse off then bigger firms). One reason to shoot for a large firm is because they hire so many students. E.g. Kirkland (Chicago) in a good year will take around 80 summer associates (and hire 78 or them). That's a lot of people. A small 28 attorney firm (assuming they hire straight out of law school) will be able to hire 1-2 max.

The $45K figure comes from what you would likely be making if you end up at what is typically considered shitlaw (firms around 1-9 attorneys that do personal injury/DUIs, and other rediculous shit you see commercial on TV for). That's not to say all shitlaw firms pay that poorly, but the ones you can likely get into right out of law school do.

Sorry, I am going to have to call you out on this information yet again. Again, I am not sure where you are getting your information from concerning these small to mid sized firms. I have interviewed with firms that have 15-40ish attorneys and met with their first year associates that were summer associates this past summer. These firms told me that they hire their two associates that work for them over the summer and I PHYSICALLY MET THEM. Yes, they do only hire 2, but you will also find dozens of these small to mid sized firms to apply to and not nearly as many biglaw firms. Other small to mid sized firms I have spoken with told me that they hire their summer associates after they are done with their summers and you can just see it by looking on their websites at the graduation dates of the people who work there (ie. J.D. 2008, J.D. 2009). These firms operate very similar to biglaw in that they offer their summer associates positions at the end of their summers. They just bring on fewer associates because obviously, they are smaller and don't need as many. Yes, these are amazing jobs to get. Yes, they do hire lateral transfers from biglaw firms. BUT, they also hire their summer associates just like biglaw. There are just fewer summer associate positions, but there are also many more of these small to midsized firms to apply to than biglaw firms in any given city. You just have to search for them and do your homework. Luckily, Illinois is a T23 school so when we apply to small to mid sized firms in different cities that is recognized and we get a response.

Small to mid sized summer associate positions are also are not heavily advertised jobs. You have to go to places like Martindale Hubbel and other websites that list firms, go to their website, and sometimes even call them to find out about their summer associate positions. Again, this is what I referred to in earlier posts as "having to go out on your own and do more leg work" to find a job. SO, I echo the above poster's call for you to take this to another thread if you want to continue talking about whatever it is you want to talk about because it is not relevant here.

Just think about those numbers. I just looked it up on martindale's to be an exact as possible. There are 155 law firms in Chicago ranging from 10-49 attorney. The bottom side of that definitely doesn't hire summer associates and give offers (i.e. firms around 10 attorneys). A lot of the firms on the upper part of that don't as well. So let's say about 50% of the 155 firms do hire right out of law school, and each of them hire 2 students (which is a LOT for this economy). That comes to a grand total of 155 jobs. That's not even half your class alone and there are 6 schools in the area fights for jobs in Chicago. Even if you were to assume every single one of those firms hired right out of law school that's 310 jobs (assuming 2 per firm, including firms with only 10 attorneys-- massive growth). Your odds are still stacked against you with the 6 schools in Chicago (not to mention the t14s from other states that want in at Chicago firms).

EDIT- if it really were as easy to land $100K paying jobs as you think it is, don't you think less people would be worried at TTTs? Just check out JDunderground. Those are hardcore losers, but I'd bet there are plenty of people that busted ass in tier 1s that still couldn't find $100K jobs right out of school and struggled to repay their student debt (i.e. making $45K a year if they were that lucky).

[ChattelCat]

Obviously you have some personal vendetta against UIUC since you've only posted on TLS seven times, and all seven of those were to post uneducated and disparaging comments about our school. Why people on this board feel the need to do this still astounds me. What do you get out of completely unfounded estimations of our OCI stats and saying unnecessarily negative things? If it's some sort of personal satisfaction that's just sick.

I wouldn't go as far as a personal vendetta against UIUC. I actually thought it was a good school and had applied there last year. How deceptive they are made me mad, and I felt the need to disparage a few prospective students from going to a TTT.

So let me get this straight - You feel the need to disparage prospective students from going somewhere you don't go and have absolutely no experience with based on unfounded suppositions about what MIGHT have happened if you had decided to attend?!!??!?!? RIDICULOUS! Are you really this angry and miserable of a person? Go ahead and post all you want - I think this admission alone speaks wonderfully to the utter lack of foundation for any of your remarks regarding our school. Thank you for that clarification. Over and out.

[ruleser]

Hi there, good school, would consider with a scholarship.

Just popped in to ask though, is that Justine Bateman or a self-tar?

[Rob Johnson]

Obviously you have some personal vendetta against UIUC since you've only posted on TLS seven times, and all seven of those were to post uneducated and disparaging comments about our school. Why people on this board feel the need to do this still astounds me. What do you get out of completely unfounded estimations of our OCI stats and saying unnecessarily negative things? If it's some sort of personal satisfaction that's just sick.

I wouldn't go as far as a personal vendetta against UIUC. I actually thought it was a good school and had applied there last year. How deceptive they are made me mad, and I felt the need to disparage a few prospective students from going to a TTT.

So let me get this straight - You feel the need to disparage prospective students from going somewhere you don't go and have absolutely no experience with based on unfounded suppositions about what MIGHT have happened if you had decided to attend?!!??!?!? RIDICULOUS! Are you really this angry and miserable of a person? Go ahead and post all you want - I think this admission alone speaks wonderfully to the utter lack of foundation for any of your remarks regarding our school. Thank you for that clarification. Over and out.

Dude did you even look at the video and brochures they send you with your application packet? It is total shit and nothing but number fudging-- e.g. "we're a top 10 public law school" -- what the hell kind of a metric is that? Then there was the part where they tell you to ignore USworld news rankings and to attend the school you want and not to worry about rankings-- that'd be great advice if it really didn't matter but it does as far as firms are concerned. Then they tell you it really doesn't matter what the salary statistics are, but to just look at what you want to do and if you want to work at a larger firm then the average is $160K. Do they think people are retarded? I mean seriously, median salary at least hints at the ability of students to go into certain jobs (as does the total % that went into large firms). I don't have the video or brochures with me but I remember there being much more that was bad.

[hkm6315]

Self-tar : )

I am no longer acknowledging that Rob Johnson is posting on this thread because none of his posts are relevant to the purpose of this thread (answering questions about the University of Illinois School of Law posed by prospective students). Furthermore, many of his statements have been totally inaccurate thus far, so I am not even going to dignify the rest of them with a response. Again, thank you for your concern about our future jobs Rob, but it is time to take it somewhere else.

[Helmholtz]

Okay, carry on.

Rob, take it somewhere else.

[hkm6315]

Flame blow out.

[hkm6315]

Now, to respond to someone who actually has questions and is in line with the purpose of this thread: the facilities are great, not having a car is totally reasonable, and I have no idea who that troll is. : ) But really, the law school is really nice. You should come for a tour and sit in on a class! We have LCD tvs in front of all of the rooms projecting the class times, etc. The library is fantastic, many people essentially live in there to study, and you could hear a pin drop. Also, the law school is on the fringe, but it is also a few blocks from ARC which just reopened last year after some amazing renovations (one of the nation's largest on-campus recreation centers at over 340,000 feet and every type of exercise equipment you could imagine). Also, many many people live on or close to campus and don't have cars. They either walk to class or take the bus. There are many buses on campus and buses that go by stops in front of nearby apartment complexes (like Hessel on the Park). Hope you apply and come visit! It is definitely worth it!

^ Not sure where you are getting your facts from. You can easily go look at NALP.org and find that small to mid sized starting salaries are strong and competitive with many big firms. Just to throw a couple at you that I know of since I am looking in Indianapolis for a job: Dann Pecar Newman & Kleiman, P.C.> starting salary 92,000 (28 attorneys); Hoover Hull LLP> starting salary 100,000 (14 attorneys); etc. COMPARE to larger biglaw Indianapolis firms like Bingham McHale> starting salary 100,000 (141 attorneys). So, to say that you only make 45K at smaller firms and that they will not provide you with an adequate salary to pay back loans is just not correct. Also, many of these small to mid sized firms offer a higher quality of life and MANY MANY MANY biglaw lawyers end up changing their careers and working at these small to mid sized firms because they value their quality of life (I know a handful of lawyers that have done this). Major, Lindsey & Africa is one of the biggest attorney search consultants and you can see them echoing the same sentiment in this link: --LinkRemoved--

Yes, you are right that it is going to be a lot harder to get a biglaw job without a summer associate, but a few are doing it. You are wrong by implying that we are all in trouble and going to end up begging on the street for change so that we can manage to squeeze out enough to pay back loans and put food on the table. Yes, it is a lot tougher right now. Yes, not as many people have summer associates as did this time last year. BUT, I am not sure where you got these 10% figures since career services doesn't even have those figures, and people are hearing back from employers every day. (I have a friend who accepted a biglaw offer two days ago.) AND, I can name a few biglaw firms that career services has recently sent us information on that have application deadlines that are coming up within the next month or so. Obviously these firms are still looking at people, or else they would not be asking us to send applications in this late. Granted, most firms are making their hiring decisions about now, but there are a few that are holding out.

SO, you don't have to work at a biglaw firm to survive and pay back your loans. It is not 160k a year like some Chicago and NY big firms, but 80k-100k is not exactly chump change and that is what many of these small to mid sized firms are paying (and you will probably like your life a lot more and want to stay there, 80% of biglaw associates leave within the first 5 years, that's no fluke).


Anyways, I appreciate your apparent concern in our future and our ability to find job placement, but I can assure you that we are all highly intelligent and capable law students who will eventually find jobs, be able to pay back our loans, and be ok at the end of the day.

As someone who works in Chicago with real estate lawyers everyday, and is a prospective 2010 student, I think you're absolutely correct. It's not as easy as it used to be, not by a long shot, but the law is hardly a dead profession that's fiscally impossible to manage an education for.

And really, all the negative talk from other posters about how bad lawyers have it, now and in the future, is for another thread. I've been reading along about the education at Illinois for the last couple of pages and its been informative thus far (thanks to those who have contributed, especially you hkm). Let's throw that other discussion over to this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =2&t=93322

NOW. I might have missed this in here (I'm still plowing through the beginning of the thread), but how're the facilities at Illinois? I know the law school is kind of on the edge of campus, but are buildings nice and taken care of? How about transit, can you get around w/o a car?

And finally, I have to admit I wasn't considering Illinois heavily, but now with the Fee Waiver for everyone I totally am. I'm curious if it was THE decision maker for other prospective students trolling around in this thread?