0L interested in MBB

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broncosfan9

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0L interested in MBB

Post by broncosfan9 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:[MODS PLEASE KEEP ME ANON]

This is great, and I'm on that same email chain! Currently in biglaw and generally enjoy what I do. I ultimately got to the final interview but was dinged at that point. I had some other interviews lined up within the MBB but ultimately decided not to pursue.

OP, are you currently working for McKinsey?
I remember getting the email and being like really, I can’t believe that this got sent to everyone. CS did something similar with an investment banking recruiting workshop with a webex.

Unfortunately (perhaps fortunately) I did not get an offer with McKinsey or Bain who I also interviewed with. All I’ll say is that I am quite happy where my career landed and perhaps not getting the McKinsey offer may have been beneficial for me in the long run.
Would love to hear more about this. It seems like McKinsey offers similar pay to BigLaw without the billable hours grind. Biggest downside seems to be travel but at least McKinsey is a 2 to 3 year stint vs 5+ years in BigLaw before exiting.

For context, I’m an older student going into HYS next year coming out of the military. Definitely not opposed to hard work or putting in the hours when needed, just seems like BigLaw is a total burnout without much job satisfaction or greater purpose. I’m sure there is a lot I’m missing / haven’t considered though

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Re: Mckinsey Consulting - JD - Interview data / AMA

Post by QContinuum » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:00 pm

broncosfan9 wrote:Would love to hear more about this. It seems like McKinsey offers similar pay to BigLaw without the billable hours grind. Biggest downside seems to be travel but at least McKinsey is a 2 to 3 year stint vs 5+ years in BigLaw before exiting.

For context, I’m an older student going into HYS next year coming out of the military. Definitely not opposed to hard work or putting in the hours when needed, just seems like BigLaw is a total burnout without much job satisfaction or greater purpose. I’m sure there is a lot I’m missing / haven’t considered though
If you're already more interested in consulting than law as a 0L starting law school not even this fall, but in fall 2021, I strongly urge you to rethink law school. B-school may be a much better fit for you. In addition to being a whole year shorter than law school (which is significant, especially for older students), b-school gives you way more options and flexibility in consulting and business job opps more generally. J.D. hiring in consulting is basically limited to MBB - most other consulting firms won't take J.D.s. With an MBA, though, you have many more consulting firms to apply to, significantly reducing your chances of striking out. You also get many other business roles to apply to, as well, which are basically foreclosed to law students.

As TLS always (correctly) says: Don't go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer. That's true even for YSH (HBS/SBS/YSM may be a much better fit than HLS/SLS/YLS).

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Re: Mckinsey Consulting - JD - Interview data / AMA

Post by BrainsyK » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:29 am

Johnnybgoode92 wrote:Pay: similar, although MBB is higher later on if you can withstand the attrition in MBB or big law

Exit ops: MBB’s will generally pay more and be more interesting. The MBB exit ops will be more demanding lifestyle wise than most in house positions.
I'm curious on the compensation point. All examples below are for McKinsey.

The H1B salary database shows that 90%+ of Engagement Managers earn $165k. Let's say that those are the 1st year EMs. Assuming you make EM after 2 and 1/2 years (stub + 1 + 2), you're now equivalent to a rising 3rd year in biglaw, which means to break even w/biglaw's $270k total compensation (sans 401(k) contribution), you'd make to make a $105k bonus (let's assume you're in the middle bucket of bonuses). I find it really difficult to believe that after 2 years with the company, EMs are getting bonuses of ~65% of their base pay. There are also EM salaries at the $180k and $200k range. Let's assume that those are 2nd and 3rd year EMs, respectively, who receive yearly bumps. They would have to make a bonus ~80% of their base pay to catch up with their biglaw counterparts. Again, I find that hard to believe.

Let's climb one level higher. Let's say after another 3 years as an EM, you make an Associate Partner. The H1B salary database records those salaries hovering at $200k, $210, and $225k. Let's be generous and say that those aren't even 3 levels and there's just two levels of AP at ~$200k and ~$225k. Those would be equal to a rising 6th and 7th year biglaw associates, which means their bonus would have to be ~100% and ~90%, respectively to match their biglaw counterparts. Again, it seems unlikely to me. My roommate who is heading to BCG after their MBA quoted me 30%-50% of base for EMs/APs--or whatever is the equivalent rank at BCG.

So, assuming that McKinsey doesn't just blatantly lie and pay their employees higher than what they file on their H1B applications--I don't know why they would; you'd want to inflate, not deflate salaries if you want a higher chance at H1B approval--where the hell does this mythical compensation premium come from? This is up to the end of the 7th year. There's only one year left on the partner track at most biglaw firms. Obviously, there's the 401(k) match, but even if you shave 20% of the percentages I've provided so far and count the 401(k) as part of the compensation premium, the percentages would still seem moderately too high for me. Keep in mind: MBB supposedly has higher attrition, another fact thrown around on TLS that I doubt, so compensation should probably be higher to reward that risk.

What's also interesting about this point is that WSO, reddit, Management Consulted all go completely radio silent on specific numbers and base/bonus structures at MBB and only brandish that first year number around, which always says that you can make a bonus "up to" 35k at MBB, but let's face it. If you're middle of the road, you'd make about half that.

It kind of makes me think that this whole "MBB pays better later on" thing is a TLS invention because folks here stan MBB. At least people discuss IBD compensation with concrete numbers on WSO every year so those are more solid.

No hate on MBB. If you like thinking from a business-strategic perspective, pursue that regardless of compensation. Like biglaw, it's a great job that puts you in the top 5% of household incomes and has great exits, but I have seriously doubts that it pays significantly--or even materially--more throughout its partner-track. If anything, it might pay less.

Also, regarding exits, I can't be bothered to pull up every WSO thread that says that early to mid-level exits from MBB into industry corp. dev./strat. is $150k-$200k, but those are basically the numbers thrown around. I don't think biglaw exits are that different. Of course, LA entertainment exits might be closer to $125k, but Houston O&G or NYC financial services can also be like $225k-$250k. In both cases--MBB and biglaw--it seems pretty industry and location dependent (and intuitively, that's probably how it should be).

I can think of two positives for MBB exits outside the subjective criteria of enjoying business-side work more.

First, MBB can exit into IBD/PE. Lawyers can too. The process is basically the same. Network hard and brush up on technical interviewing. MBB folks are probably better at the latter, but that same aptitude is probably what got into MBB in the first place. If you can't do basic math fast and incorporate that math into your analysis of business problems, first, you'd never make it into MBB, and second, being at MBB won't magically make you a better candidate for IBD/PE.

Second, MBB alumni have a better chance at becoming CEO/CFO/COO. Those usually pay more than GCs, but they're also slugging it out with literally everybody else in the company for those roles--including the lawyers sometimes. If you want to be GC, you're only fighting with other lawyers.

OP, do what you want. Business school is good because if nothing else, it's less expensive both in terms of actual and opportunity cost, which is significant. I'd urge you to consider the information above. It's constructed off of bits and pieces of information, and I've never touched consulting in my life so I am definitely talking out of my ass, but I have a hard time see why I'd be wrong, which I definitely can be. Happy to be proven so by actual MBB folks.

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Re: Mckinsey Consulting - JD - Interview data / AMA

Post by broncosfan9 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:34 am

QContinuum wrote: If you're already more interested in consulting than law as a 0L starting law school not even this fall, but in fall 2021, I strongly urge you to rethink law school. B-school may be a much better fit for you. In addition to being a whole year shorter than law school (which is significant, especially for older students), b-school gives you way more options and flexibility in consulting and business job opps more generally. J.D. hiring in consulting is basically limited to MBB - most other consulting firms won't take J.D.s. With an MBA, though, you have many more consulting firms to apply to, significantly reducing your chances of striking out. You also get many other business roles to apply to, as well, which are basically foreclosed to law students.

As TLS always (correctly) says: Don't go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer. That's true even for YSH (HBS/SBS/YSM may be a much better fit than HLS/SLS/YLS).
That is definitely a fair point. Part of hesitation to pursue b-school would be that I already have my HYS admission, and I’m not sure I could reach the same caliber of b-school. I took the LSAT several years before applying while I was still fresh from college and had not started working. Now I’m older, married, and at a job that is extremely demanding - I don’t have the same confidence that I’ll score well on the GMAT. The extra year of law school is a year lost in opportunity cost, but with my partial GI Bill / fellowship I won’t be paying too much out of pocket for tuition / living costs.

I definitely think my struggle is more with careers in law than a disinterest in law school. I am excited to merge my love of foreign policy, economics, and government policy with a legal framework - but I’m also aware that making a career out of those interests would require either a unicorn job or a lower-salary than my current gig. Not looking to be super rich, but if I can replace or go above my current combined household income for a few years (we make approx 150K together) that would be the goal.

Since I’m not going to make a career doing unicorn international law, I’d instead want to be in a fulfilling work environment. I know I enjoy being in a collaborative and team-based environment where I can utilize my leadership skills and be a part of something purposeful (the few times my mil service has allowed to do this were my favorite). While I’d love to continue living overseas, I’m happy living anywhere in the States besides the super expensive cities (i.e. New York, San Francisco). None of these things seem to line-up with a stint in BigLaw. At the same time, doing anything other than BigLaw for 5+ years would appear to limit my career flexibility. Thus - I’ve ended up with MBB as my goal. It seems I’d enjoy the work while being able to have flexibility to move on after two years if/when it becomes too draining. I’ve also thought about doing JAG Reserves (IMA) or doing Department of State / politics down the line, but would love to first experience the private sector versus automatically going back to Uncle Sam.

Apologize for the long rant - I really appreciate all your thoughtful commentary / opinions on this.

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:49 am

broncosfan9 wrote:I definitely think my struggle is more with careers in law than a disinterest in law school.
Then don't go to law school until you're a little more settled on being an attorney. Law school is professional training; that's it. If you don't want a career in law, then going to law school will not serve any useful function.

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by broncosfan9 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:46 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
broncosfan9 wrote:I definitely think my struggle is more with careers in law than a disinterest in law school.
Then don't go to law school until you're a little more settled on being an attorney. Law school is professional training; that's it. If you don't want a career in law, then going to law school will not serve any useful function.
Yeah. Thankfully I have another 1.5 year to terse that out and consider options before starting school with the advantage of knowing what school I’m going to. Found this thread on MBB as an option and wanted to explore that idea as a serious possibility, but overall just trying to understand what’s out there.

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by broncosfan9 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:58 am

Johnnybgoode92 wrote:
broncosfan9 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
broncosfan9 wrote:I definitely think my struggle is more with careers in law than a disinterest in law school.
Then don't go to law school until you're a little more settled on being an attorney. Law school is professional training; that's it. If you don't want a career in law, then going to law school will not serve any useful function.
Yeah. Thankfully I have another 1.5 year to terse that out and consider options before starting school with the advantage of knowing what school I’m going to. Found this thread on MBB as an option and wanted to explore that idea as a serious possibility, but overall just trying to understand what’s out there.
Get the highest gpa possible in a useful major (Econ, business, anything with numbers), work at a bulge bracket investment bank for two years, move over to private equity. If you hit a rut get an MBA at an M7. This is the most lucrative and prestigious career path outside of entrepreneurship at the moment. You’ll be making more than an average doctor before you’re 30.
Sorry if I was unclear but I already graduated undergrad a while back. Currently working as an officer in the US military, accepted to HYS law school this cycle with a deferral to start Fall 2021.

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by Sackboy » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:50 pm

I always find it hilarious to see people on here talk about finance, MBB, and tech.
  • They always leave out the tremendous downsides to many of the jobs.
  • They always neglect to take into consideration that the material might not be interesting.
  • They always assume that unicorn scenarios are a lock, when in reality they are closer to the odds of landing a COA clerkship, at best, out of a T13.
  • They always forget that you almost have to live in super high COL places (e.g. tech in SV) for these $$$ outcomes. Those $300k tech packages all of a sudden are incredibly MEH.
  • When it comes to long-term scenarios, they're talking about becoming CEOs and COOs of major corporations, which is like starting a law school thread saying you're going to HYS because you it will make you a SCOTUS clerk.
  • They often have no idea about how many people (hint: a lot) go to MBB or top finance and have the same sort of mediocre careers as flat lining as an in-house counsel for a F500. They think you spend two years at McKinsey, 2 years at HBS, 2 years at some PE/HF, and then you're CEO/ultra millionaire/etc. In reality, even most of these high achieving folks spend 20+ years of their career in middle management in corporate, making $200-$300k. Many of them top out at high-grade Directors with all in comp of $300-$500k in their 50s or 60s. Very few of them actually become VP/SVP/EVP/C-Suite.
  • They assume that you can leave and just create a successful startup, failing to recognize the thousands of very smart people who try and fail in the startup space every year. Also, they operate with this assumption that they will get cash thrown at them for their startup. All of which is even more hilarious, because these posters envious of MBB/tech/finance lacked so much imagination that they became lawyers in the first place. It's unlikely that they'd have a novel idea, let alone one that's worth any $$$.
All around, so many of these posts are detached from reality in the same way that a 0L dreaming about becoming a SCOTUS justice is.

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by QContinuum » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:11 pm

The same logic applies here as applies to relationships: If you're in a bad relationship, you should get out of that relationship, even if you believe it'll be difficult to find another partner of the same "caliber" on paper.

Put another way, you should not attend law school merely because you fear it'll be difficult for you to get into a business school of the same "caliber". You should make the law school decision independently of your presumed b-school prospects. Your ability, or inability, to get into HBS does not affect whether it's a good idea for you to attend HLS. You want to be a businessman. You do not want to be a lawyer. There are legal jobs that interest you, but you're not willing to take them - even if you were to get them, which isn't a sure thing given the ultra-competitive nature of those jobs - because, in your view, they don't pay enough. There are legal jobs that pay enough for your tastes, but you dread the prospect of taking them because they don't interest you. Even if you don't get into HBS, you shouldn't attend HLS.

And, further, in this case you can have your cake and eat it too: You aren't scheduled to start law school until fall 2021. You need not make a final decision now on whether to attend HLS. In the 1 year and 4 months between now and fall 2021, what's stopping you from going all in on prepping for the GMAT, or the GRE for that matter (definitely double-check this, but I believe most/all b-schools take the GRE now)?

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by hpntq » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:14 pm

Sackboy wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:50 pm
I always find it hilarious to see people on here talk about finance, MBB, and tech.
  • They always leave out the tremendous downsides to many of the jobs.
  • They always neglect to take into consideration that the material might not be interesting.
  • They always assume that unicorn scenarios are a lock, when in reality they are closer to the odds of landing a COA clerkship, at best, out of a T13.
  • They always forget that you almost have to live in super high COL places (e.g. tech in SV) for these $$$ outcomes. Those $300k tech packages all of a sudden are incredibly MEH.
  • When it comes to long-term scenarios, they're talking about becoming CEOs and COOs of major corporations, which is like starting a law school thread saying you're going to HYS because you it will make you a SCOTUS clerk.
  • They often have no idea about how many people (hint: a lot) go to MBB or top finance and have the same sort of mediocre careers as flat lining as an in-house counsel for a F500. They think you spend two years at McKinsey, 2 years at HBS, 2 years at some PE/HF, and then you're CEO/ultra millionaire/etc. In reality, even most of these high achieving folks spend 20+ years of their career in middle management in corporate, making $200-$300k. Many of them top out at high-grade Directors with all in comp of $300-$500k in their 50s or 60s. Very few of them actually become VP/SVP/EVP/C-Suite.
  • They assume that you can leave and just create a successful startup, failing to recognize the thousands of very smart people who try and fail in the startup space every year. Also, they operate with this assumption that they will get cash thrown at them for their startup. All of which is even more hilarious, because these posters envious of MBB/tech/finance lacked so much imagination that they became lawyers in the first place. It's unlikely that they'd have a novel idea, let alone one that's worth any $$$.
All around, so many of these posts are detached from reality in the same way that a 0L dreaming about becoming a SCOTUS justice is.

I have been lurking on TLS forums for years, and have to chime in and say that this is the greatest reply/comment of all time on this forum.

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Re: Mckinsey Consulting - JD - Interview data / AMA

Post by IAmtheLaw72 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:49 pm

BrainsyK wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:29 am
Johnnybgoode92 wrote:Pay: similar, although MBB is higher later on if you can withstand the attrition in MBB or big law

Exit ops: MBB’s will generally pay more and be more interesting. The MBB exit ops will be more demanding lifestyle wise than most in house positions.
I'm curious on the compensation point. All examples below are for McKinsey.

The H1B salary database shows that 90%+ of Engagement Managers earn $165k. Let's say that those are the 1st year EMs. Assuming you make EM after 2 and 1/2 years (stub + 1 + 2), you're now equivalent to a rising 3rd year in biglaw, which means to break even w/biglaw's $270k total compensation (sans 401(k) contribution), you'd make to make a $105k bonus (let's assume you're in the middle bucket of bonuses). I find it really difficult to believe that after 2 years with the company, EMs are getting bonuses of ~65% of their base pay. There are also EM salaries at the $180k and $200k range. Let's assume that those are 2nd and 3rd year EMs, respectively, who receive yearly bumps. They would have to make a bonus ~80% of their base pay to catch up with their biglaw counterparts. Again, I find that hard to believe.
Just a clarification! EMs are typically those their third or fourth year at McKinsey out of undergrad. Basically, starting as a BA right out of undergrad you'd make ~100k TC for two years, and then if you get promoted to EM you make 165k. However, the starting salary fresh out of an MBA program is typically 200k. If you're trying to compare a third year in biglaw with a third year consultant, you'd probably do better to look at pay for those coming out of MBA programs, three years after entering MBB. not 100% sure what that would be but obviously > 200k.

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Re: Mckinsey Consulting - JD - Interview data / AMA

Post by BrainsyK » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:21 pm

IAmtheLaw72 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:49 pm
Just a clarification! EMs are typically those their third or fourth year at McKinsey out of undergrad. Basically, starting as a BA right out of undergrad you'd make ~100k TC for two years, and then if you get promoted to EM you make 165k. However, the starting salary fresh out of an MBA program is typically 200k. If you're trying to compare a third year in biglaw with a third year consultant, you'd probably do better to look at pay for those coming out of MBA programs, three years after entering MBB. not 100% sure what that would be but obviously > 200k.
As far as I can tell, Associates out of their MBA also become EMs after two years. I know that McKinsey redid their direct promote path so you do 3 years as a BA then directly become an EM, but MBA Associates would either directly become EMs. The alternatively would be they directly become an Associate Principal...? Seems quite a jump after only 2-3 years in the industry and would imply a 6 year partnership track there, which seems a little far-fetched to me, but it's a possibility. There were a few higher paid EMs, but even those don't quite come up to biglaw level salaries.

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by dabigchina » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:22 pm

In reality, even most of these high achieving folks spend 20+ years of their career in middle management in corporate, making $200-$300k. Many of them top out at high-grade Directors with all in comp of $300-$500k in their 50s or 60s. Very few of them actually become VP/SVP/EVP/C-Suite.
No offence, but I know plenty of biglaw midlevels (esp on the lit side) who would love to "fail" like this.
They always forget that you almost have to live in super high COL places (e.g. tech in SV) for these $$$ outcomes. Those $300k tech packages all of a sudden are incredibly MEH.
As opposed to super affordable Manhattan.

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by BrainsyK » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:19 pm

dabigchina wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:22 pm
In reality, even most of these high achieving folks spend 20+ years of their career in middle management in corporate, making $200-$300k. Many of them top out at high-grade Directors with all in comp of $300-$500k in their 50s or 60s. Very few of them actually become VP/SVP/EVP/C-Suite.
No offence, but I know plenty of biglaw midlevels (esp on the lit side) who would love to "fail" like this.
Is 400k all-in that rare for major metro in-house attorneys who come in at the senior counsel/AGC level and work their way up over the next 10-20 years? Or is it just that legal folks want to work on business-side rather than legal?

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by dabigchina » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:36 pm

BrainsyK wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:19 pm
dabigchina wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:22 pm
In reality, even most of these high achieving folks spend 20+ years of their career in middle management in corporate, making $200-$300k. Many of them top out at high-grade Directors with all in comp of $300-$500k in their 50s or 60s. Very few of them actually become VP/SVP/EVP/C-Suite.
No offence, but I know plenty of biglaw midlevels (esp on the lit side) who would love to "fail" like this.
Is 400k all-in that rare for major metro in-house attorneys who come in at the senior counsel/AGC level and work their way up over the next 10-20 years? Or is it just that legal folks want to work on business-side rather than legal?
Maybe if you're at a faang or go to a startup and get lucky. 400k is a lot unless you get favorable movement in your stock based comp.

My point was that the exit ops from elite consulting are more plentiful vs biglaw. I was also pointing out that working a sustainable in house gig making 200-300k is hardly the horrible downside that the quoted poster seems to think it is.

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Re: Mckinsey Consulting - JD - Interview data / AMA

Post by IAmtheLaw72 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:05 am

BrainsyK wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:21 pm
IAmtheLaw72 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:49 pm
Just a clarification! EMs are typically those their third or fourth year at McKinsey out of undergrad. Basically, starting as a BA right out of undergrad you'd make ~100k TC for two years, and then if you get promoted to EM you make 165k. However, the starting salary fresh out of an MBA program is typically 200k. If you're trying to compare a third year in biglaw with a third year consultant, you'd probably do better to look at pay for those coming out of MBA programs, three years after entering MBB. not 100% sure what that would be but obviously > 200k.
As far as I can tell, Associates out of their MBA also become EMs after two years. I know that McKinsey redid their direct promote path so you do 3 years as a BA then directly become an EM, but MBA Associates would either directly become EMs. The alternatively would be they directly become an Associate Principal...? Seems quite a jump after only 2-3 years in the industry and would imply a 6 year partnership track there, which seems a little far-fetched to me, but it's a possibility. There were a few higher paid EMs, but even those don't quite come up to biglaw level salaries.
Sure, but the fact that they were making 200k+ before being EM makes me confident those numbers are wrong - perhaps they averaged with or exclusive to pre-MBA EMs

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Re: Mckinsey Consulting - JD - Interview data / AMA

Post by BrainsyK » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:37 pm

IAmtheLaw72 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:05 am
Sure, but the fact that they were making 200k+ before being EM makes me confident those numbers are wrong - perhaps they averaged with or exclusive to pre-MBA EMs
The 200k+ isn't 200k+. It's 165k base + up to 35k performance bonus, which very few associates max out + 30k signing bonus. In your second year, the signing bonus disappears so it's just 200k. H1B salaries shown in the database are individual files so it can't be averaged. The odds of them being only pre-MBA EMs are pretty small since there are like 30+ files containing every single H1B filed that year. I'd have a hard time believing that not a single post-MBA Associate had to apply for their H1B extension that year out of the many that work at McKinsey.

The one thing is that H1B applications only count guaranteed compensation so that 165k would only be a base salaries and not bonuses. Since I made my post, the database has been updated with a new crop of EMs, who are apparently making max 183k salary or less based on the 30 approved applications so they got pay bump, but even at 183k, EMs would still need to receive a 97k bonus to match a third-year biglaw associate, which would be 53% of their base, which is possible but there's no way to, but none of the MBAs working at MBBs that I know and whom I've asked generally report consistent bonuses at 50% of base salary.

The original premise was that MBB consultants got bumped up in pay faster and made them excel biglaw salaries by large margins. From the available information that isn't just interview prep websites trying to sell that big flashy 1st year compensation by assuming people would be the top Associate of their class and including a signing bonus, that doesn't seem to be true. It seems that pay bumps are generously but unlikely to outpace biglaw associates. Counting the 401(k) contribution, it would probably would, but that would be assuming consistent bonuses that are 50% of base. Hence, my assertion that the post-MBA path at MBB is oversold in terms of compensation by this forum.

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Re: Mckinsey Consulting - JD - Interview data / AMA

Post by DDG00 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:55 am

BrainsyK wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:37 pm
IAmtheLaw72 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:05 am
Sure, but the fact that they were making 200k+ before being EM makes me confident those numbers are wrong - perhaps they averaged with or exclusive to pre-MBA EMs
The 200k+ isn't 200k+. It's 165k base + up to 35k performance bonus, which very few associates max out + 30k signing bonus. In your second year, the signing bonus disappears so it's just 200k. H1B salaries shown in the database are individual files so it can't be averaged. The odds of them being only pre-MBA EMs are pretty small since there are like 30+ files containing every single H1B filed that year. I'd have a hard time believing that not a single post-MBA Associate had to apply for their H1B extension that year out of the many that work at McKinsey.

The one thing is that H1B applications only count guaranteed compensation so that 165k would only be a base salaries and not bonuses. Since I made my post, the database has been updated with a new crop of EMs, who are apparently making max 183k salary or less based on the 30 approved applications so they got pay bump, but even at 183k, EMs would still need to receive a 97k bonus to match a third-year biglaw associate, which would be 53% of their base, which is possible but there's no way to, but none of the MBAs working at MBBs that I know and whom I've asked generally report consistent bonuses at 50% of base salary.

The original premise was that MBB consultants got bumped up in pay faster and made them excel biglaw salaries by large margins. From the available information that isn't just interview prep websites trying to sell that big flashy 1st year compensation by assuming people would be the top Associate of their class and including a signing bonus, that doesn't seem to be true. It seems that pay bumps are generously but unlikely to outpace biglaw associates. Counting the 401(k) contribution, it would probably would, but that would be assuming consistent bonuses that are 50% of base. Hence, my assertion that the post-MBA path at MBB is oversold in terms of compensation by this forum.
Some irony here, because I'm currently at MBB (post-MBA) and am considering going back to law school.

Post MBA/JD 1st year salary at MBB: $170k + bonus ($15-35k), after that it is an increase in "total compensation".

If you made $200k in 2020 (base + bonus) then 2021 they take your rating and increase your total comp as a percentage (e.g. 35% for top performers, 10-15% for bottom). So in 2021 you'd make $235k. Your bonus is just your total comp - base. So if your base was 175k in 2021 then your bonus would be $60k. Your base increases are more modest, about 3-10% a year (tied to performance rating). You'd also have about ~$300k potential total comp in year 3.

This happens every year until partner (5-7 years post JD/MBA). You can expect a new partner to make ~$500k first year and their comp is tied to performance of the org.

Takeaway: Your total comp potentially increases 30-35% every year if you're a top performer or 10-15% every year if you're in the bottom (but not getting asked to leave). It's also not tied to your "title" (EM, Associate, etc) and everybody will be different depending on their ratings over the years.

I have several coworkers who are JDs and I think the high level takeaway was more potential comp at MBB but it's a lot more variable and people usually leave after 1-3 years. Staying at MBB past 2 years is a long time. None of them went to MBB for the comp, they went to MBB because they wanted to be in the business world instead of law (and I guess they realized that too late).

cpa2lawskool21

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by cpa2lawskool21 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:37 pm

Sackboy wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:50 pm
I always find it hilarious to see people on here talk about finance, MBB, and tech.
  • They always leave out the tremendous downsides to many of the jobs.
  • They always neglect to take into consideration that the material might not be interesting.
  • They always assume that unicorn scenarios are a lock, when in reality they are closer to the odds of landing a COA clerkship, at best, out of a T13.
  • They always forget that you almost have to live in super high COL places (e.g. tech in SV) for these $$$ outcomes. Those $300k tech packages all of a sudden are incredibly MEH.
  • When it comes to long-term scenarios, they're talking about becoming CEOs and COOs of major corporations, which is like starting a law school thread saying you're going to HYS because you it will make you a SCOTUS clerk.
  • They often have no idea about how many people (hint: a lot) go to MBB or top finance and have the same sort of mediocre careers as flat lining as an in-house counsel for a F500. They think you spend two years at McKinsey, 2 years at HBS, 2 years at some PE/HF, and then you're CEO/ultra millionaire/etc. In reality, even most of these high achieving folks spend 20+ years of their career in middle management in corporate, making $200-$300k. Many of them top out at high-grade Directors with all in comp of $300-$500k in their 50s or 60s. Very few of them actually become VP/SVP/EVP/C-Suite.
  • They assume that you can leave and just create a successful startup, failing to recognize the thousands of very smart people who try and fail in the startup space every year. Also, they operate with this assumption that they will get cash thrown at them for their startup. All of which is even more hilarious, because these posters envious of MBB/tech/finance lacked so much imagination that they became lawyers in the first place. It's unlikely that they'd have a novel idea, let alone one that's worth any $$$.
All around, so many of these posts are detached from reality in the same way that a 0L dreaming about becoming a SCOTUS justice is.
Is making $200-$300K a year really considered mediocre :shock: ? I'd be thrilled if I topped out in that range, especially if I'm not in NYC/SF/LA

The Lsat Airbender

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:15 pm

$200-300k is of course a lot of money, but it's also a lot less than someone could be making assuming the same qualifications. Economic choices are marginal.

CanadianWolf

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by CanadianWolf » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:23 pm

Interesting thread.

The OP--who has deferred admission to one of HYS law schools--is attracted to MBB consulting with the understanding that it is a 2 to 3 year stint, but not to biglaw because it is a 5 year stint, yet complains that biglaw is "a total burnout".

Maybe the OP should work for 2 or 3 years at a consulting firm and save up enough money to pay tuition at either an elite MBA program or at an elite law school.

Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.

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CanadianWolf

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by CanadianWolf » Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:08 am

For advice that differs from that given in this thread, check out "Where Did The Smartest People in Your Class Go" thread under Legal Employment.

Seems that many at Harvard & other elite law schools go into consulting & some into investment banking. Very true for Northwestern JD/MBAs.

DDG00

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by DDG00 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:35 pm

That's kind of where I am. 2-3 years into MBB (and doing well) and debating whether to go back to law school. 3 years of lost income at this point in my career would easily cost me $750k+ (plus the cost of law school). That said, I really regret not going down the legal career path and think I'd enjoy it a lot more than the business path I've gone down.

Edit: Also, if I didn't make it clear enough in my last post, "Engagement Manager" has no impact on your income. EMs get paid the same as Associates. EM is a role you play on the team after you have tenure (1-2 years) and have demonstrated competency. Getting "promoted" to EM doesn't come with a pay bump. A top performing associate could make more than an EM (based on the system I described earlier), but seems unlikely. If you are top performing, then you'll probably get EM opportunities earlier than others (at the one year mark vs the more normal 2 year).

Also, on topic, the JD/MBAs in my MBA program mostly (50%+) went to consulting or IB jobs.

CanadianWolf

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Re: 0L interested in MBB

Post by CanadianWolf » Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:45 pm

@DDG00: What is attracting you toward law at this point in your career ?

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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