Columbia Student Taking Questions Forum

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
jackshunger

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Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by jackshunger » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:34 pm

Last real thread like this died 2 years ago and now that Spring Break Caravans are officially canceled, I have plenty of time to answer any questions.

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by Bonzeye » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:20 pm

How easy have you found it to learn your way around the nearby city, and how motivated have you been to explore?

jackshunger

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by jackshunger » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:28 pm

Bonzeye wrote:How easy have you found it to learn your way around the nearby city, and how motivated have you been to explore?

Well I'm from NYC, so its fairly easy. That being said, with Google Maps, I don't think anyone I know has had too much difficulty getting around on the subway. I haven't explored too much, but plenty of people go to East Village and elsewhere on the weekends, explore museums, etc. There really isn't as much work to do 1L as people like to claim aside from about a month before exams, so you can do what you like.

CLS2020

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by CLS2020 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:55 am

What other schools were you deciding on when you picked Columbia?
I heard rumors that the administration does not care about students. Idk if that is true.

CLS2020

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by CLS2020 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:25 am

I also heard there's not a lot of community presence at Columbia, that it's just a funnel into BigLaw. Columbia has been my dream law school for a while now, so it sucks if all these things are true.

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BrainsyK

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by BrainsyK » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:52 am

CLS2020 wrote:What other schools were you deciding on when you picked Columbia?
I heard rumors that the administration does not care about students. Idk if that is true.
Columbia was the only school I got into.

I've never found the administration to be lacking in any way, but then again, I operate pretty independently. Actually, I don't even know what people would want the administration.

1. EIP runs like a well-oiled machine.
2. Anything related to bar admissions (amend law school applications, certifications, info. sessions, etc.), they're efficient and accommodating--unless you flat out lied on your application or something.
3. They're doing a good job at being a wartime administration. The P/F petition was submitted, and they enacted mandatory P/F like the same day so at least they enacted the ostensible will of the student body.
4. Public interest support is there, but IDK how strong it is relative to other schools as I've never attended any other school. There's a lot of info. sessions at lunch that I steal food from, but that's about all I know.
5. The clerkship office has always been a dumpster fire. There's gotta be enough money in the budget to throw a Brinks truck at a good clerkship director from Yale or even just poach one, but they don't. I don't know why. I doubt it would help that either. A lot of factors go into our bummy clerkship numbers. There's rumors that the CLR actually runs its own clerkship program just for themselves. It may be a rumor, but I can certainly see at least an informal network of alumni, who happen to be successful in the clerkship game, supporting current CLR members without any sort of illuminati program going on.

Can you elaborate on what you'd specifically like the administration to do? That's literally all the interaction I've ever had with any administrative office. I'm not a homer for CLS by any means, but it's kind of hard to screw up 1-3. I just don't deal with the administration a lot.
CLS2020 wrote:I also heard there's not a lot of community presence at Columbia, that it's just a funnel into BigLaw. Columbia has been my dream law school for a while now, so it sucks if all these things are true.
I mean--It's really good at biglaw. If your goal is NY/DC biglaw, then just sit back and enjoy the ride. Otherwise, you'll have to do some legwork, but I'm not convinced that Stanford or Yale would have a great administrative support for students trying to get to WA/TX either. Harvard probably would. UVA does. Schools have favorite regions. Students of a certain preferences go to certain schools and build a culture. Future students with similar preferences like the schools that have a culture built-in that's ready to support them so they go to those schools. 80%+ of the school wants NY/DC biglaw. That affects future pools of matriculants and also whom the administration caters, which is exactly that group.

PopcornSeason555

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by PopcornSeason555 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:33 am

What is the social culture like at CLS? Is it easy to make friends?

CLS2020

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by CLS2020 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:52 am

Bump this please ^^

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cavalier1138

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:27 am

CLS2020 wrote:Bump this please ^^
Please stop unnecessarily bumping threads that have gone less than a full day without an on-topic post.

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by annalisemademedoit » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:25 pm

PopcornSeason555 wrote:What is the social culture like at CLS? Is it easy to make friends?
Recent Columbia grad answering this. I think it's like any other school, I didn't find the people particularly asswipey. I know people who made friends through bar review, affinity groups, section student groups . . . it really varies but you'll find your clan if you look

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by QContinuum » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:36 pm

PopcornSeason555 wrote:What is the social culture like at CLS? Is it easy to make friends?
While there are some broad variations in culture between different law schools (e.g., Berkeley and NYU are somewhat more public interesty, Georgetown has more of a government service culture, Columbians are more private sector-oriented), every law school - even the smallest law schools - has a large enough community that everyone should be able to find "their people". There are plenty of corporate-oriented folks at Berkeley and NYU, there are plenty of Columbians wanting to do public interest, etc. At any school there will be nerdy folks, party animals, artsy folks, sportsy folks, gaming devotees...

If you had difficulty making friends in college, you won't magically find it easier to make friends in law school. If you were a social butterfly in college, you'll still be able to butterfly it up in law school. None of that depends on which law school you attend.

pianolesspianist

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by pianolesspianist » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:50 am

Thanks for making this thread!

I was just recently accepted to Columbia, so I would appreciate if you could talk about your general experience there? How do you find the workload, the professors, the assignments, the opportunities, and the day to day lifestyle?

From what I've read, there seems to be a perception that NYU is more laid-back/less "uptight" than Columbia - to what extent, if at all, would you say this is the case?

Finally, what would you say is the best part of attending Columbia specifically, and what is the worst?

Thanks!

(I know I'm asking a lot of questions - thanks for any time you invest in answering them! First deposit deadline is in less than a week and I want all the extra info i can get :D )

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by BrainsyK » Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:11 am

pianolesspianist wrote:I was just recently accepted to Columbia, so I would appreciate if you could talk about your general experience there? How do you find the workload, the professors, the assignments, the opportunities, and the day to day lifestyle?

Finally, what would you say is the best part of attending Columbia specifically, and what is the worst?
General Experience: I really don't that you'll find all that much of different experience than you will at any other T14. The two biggest make or breaks are probably the job opportunities, which are better here than most T14s and the city, which is subjective to you.

Workload: It depends on you. Some gun hard all three years. Some chill from orientation to graduation. Most work hard 1L and chill for 2L and 3L. CLS really helps in this respect by loosening the curve. It's basically a two-year vacation if you want it to be.

Professors: Professors range from very helpful to actively indifferent. Most are somewhere in between. That is, if your interest, politics, and personality mesh with theirs, they'll be more helpful than otherwise.

Assignments: It's all pretty standard. 1L consists of two memos, one moot court argument, mostly horse race issue spotters with some short essays and multiple thrown in, and some miscellany assignments depending on the professor. If you take an elective, you may get an essay.

Opportunities: Every opportunity is on the table, but for anything outside of biglaw in a major market, you'll have to do some legwork.

The Best: It's a tie between getting a great job and meeting some really great people.

The Worst: NYC, though I guess this could easily be someone else's best experience.

Miscellany: It's kind of an open secret that a fair amount of cheating goes on here. It probably happens at every T14 to a similar degree though. PM for more.

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by chancecooley » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:11 am

I was wondering about the JD/LLM that Columbia offers with different international universities, specifically LSE. Do you have any experience with the programs or have friends who have participated?
Do you know what percentage of students who apply are accepted, and what prerequisites and GPA requirements are like, and if they felt the program was worthwhile?
Thanks

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by BrainsyK » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:30 pm

chancecooley wrote:I was wondering about the JD/LLM that Columbia offers with different international universities, specifically LSE. Do you have any experience with the programs or have friends who have participated?
Do you know what percentage of students who apply are accepted, and what prerequisites and GPA requirements are like, and if they felt the program was worthwhile?
Thanks
Half the school goes abroad for at least one semester of 3L. I think that you have to take corporations and one international law course during 2L. The extra stacked courses causes you to have to take 15 credits for two semesters straight during 2L (I think), which can really be exhausting and bring down your GPA, which may not be that great in this economy. There are no GPA requirements. They'll let almost anyone go since it's source of revenue for both schools.

I assume most people would enjoy a semester of P/F while travelling Europe and party. I'm going to guess that most of my cohort had a lesser experience since they expected travelling and partying and actually ended up getting locked up in their apartments and possibly getting the 'Rona.

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by dabigchina » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:19 pm

"Half the school" is an overstatement. None of my friends went abroad and I know of maybe 2 people who did.

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by jackshunger » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:52 am

BrainsyK wrote:
chancecooley wrote:I was wondering about the JD/LLM that Columbia offers with different international universities, specifically LSE. Do you have any experience with the programs or have friends who have participated?
Do you know what percentage of students who apply are accepted, and what prerequisites and GPA requirements are like, and if they felt the program was worthwhile?
Thanks
Half the school goes abroad for at least one semester of 3L. I think that you have to take corporations and one international law course during 2L. The extra stacked courses causes you to have to take 15 credits for two semesters straight during 2L (I think), which can really be exhausting and bring down your GPA, which may not be that great in this economy. There are no GPA requirements. They'll let almost anyone go since it's source of revenue for both schools.

I assume most people would enjoy a semester of P/F while travelling Europe and party. I'm going to guess that most of my cohort had a lesser experience since they expected travelling and partying and actually ended up getting locked up in their apartments and possibly getting the 'Rona.

I forgot I started this thread due to TLS's weird system of notification, my apologies. I have no real information about the LLM program, except that anecdotally most of the LLM's I knew at the school struggled to find jobs in America. For regular law students, I do not know that many people that go abroad, you have to plan to do it I think by the spring of your 1L year, which is a hard commitment to make. We do have a pretty International Human Rights summer funding program that a lot of people take advantage of 1L summer though.

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jackshunger

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by jackshunger » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:06 pm

pianolesspianist wrote:Thanks for making this thread!

I was just recently accepted to Columbia, so I would appreciate if you could talk about your general experience there? How do you find the workload, the professors, the assignments, the opportunities, and the day to day lifestyle?

From what I've read, there seems to be a perception that NYU is more laid-back/less "uptight" than Columbia - to what extent, if at all, would you say this is the case?

Finally, what would you say is the best part of attending Columbia specifically, and what is the worst?

Thanks!

(I know I'm asking a lot of questions - thanks for any time you invest in answering them! First deposit deadline is in less than a week and I want all the extra info i can get :D )
I'll give my two cents on this.


Workload: I don't find law school particularly overwhelming so long as you create a schedule and stay structured. I was able to go out pretty much every weekend 1L and meet friends up until the month before finals. Invest in outlining early, reading your assignments, practicing typing for horserace exams, and going to office hours, none of which takes very long per week, and you will be fine.


Professors: You have no say in what section you are in, which determines your professors, so this is pretty random. Generally, they are all brilliant people, you just have to figure out what they like to see on exams.


Assignments: There are none other than the finals for your 1L year, aside from the memos for LPW which most people wrote in 1 night - you can't fail the class.


Opportunities: We'll have to see what coronavirus does to the legal market, but pretty much everyone who wats Big Law doesn't have too much problem getting it. Academia is probably significantly harder than somewhere like Yale, obviously, and our clerkships office by all accounts is not good.

I will note that the process for Law Review, at its most charitable, is totally random, so don't count on that if your life goal is being a SCOTUS clerk or something.


Lifestyle: I don't know if NYU is more laid back, there are more things to do in the area and anecdotally there are more PI students, so maybe that gives it its vibe? Columbia is fairly uptight, but it's to the degree you would think most law schools are.


The best and worst part are the opportunities: You have the chance to go into Big Law and get a great job, which is amazing, but when you compare it to HYS, and if you have done well at CLS, you realize how hard it is to reach for some of the more unicorn stuff there that I think a lot of their students take for granted. Clerkships are harder to get, some of the boutiques won't even look at you, our grading system and honors system is a mess. Overall way more good than bad, but something to keep in mind.

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by LBJ's Hair » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:10 pm

jackshunger wrote: Clerkships are harder to get, some of the boutiques won't even look at you, our grading system and honors system is a mess. Overall way more good than bad, but something to keep in mind.
What boutiques don't hire from CLS? Just wondering, surprises me

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by jackshunger » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:23 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:
jackshunger wrote: Clerkships are harder to get, some of the boutiques won't even look at you, our grading system and honors system is a mess. Overall way more good than bad, but something to keep in mind.
What boutiques don't hire from CLS? Just wondering, surprises me

W&C isn't really a boutique per se, but they hired something like 4 times as many HLS grads as CLS ones. There are others like Consovoy McCarthy and Cooper & Kirk that don't recruit CLS people at all. Again, it's a very small set of firms, and it affects maybe 5% of each class, but it is something to keep in mind.

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by LBJ's Hair » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:26 pm

jackshunger wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:
jackshunger wrote: Clerkships are harder to get, some of the boutiques won't even look at you, our grading system and honors system is a mess. Overall way more good than bad, but something to keep in mind.
What boutiques don't hire from CLS? Just wondering, surprises me

W&C isn't really a boutique per se, but they hired something like 4 times as many HLS grads as CLS ones. There are others like Consovoy McCarthy and Cooper & Kirk that don't recruit CLS people at all. Again, it's a very small set of firms, and it affects maybe 5% of each class, but it is something to keep in mind.
Those numbers don't surprise me for W&C, but in fairness they're hiring every year. The small conservative DC ones make sense I guess

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by galba » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:19 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:
jackshunger wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:
jackshunger wrote: Clerkships are harder to get, some of the boutiques won't even look at you, our grading system and honors system is a mess. Overall way more good than bad, but something to keep in mind.
What boutiques don't hire from CLS? Just wondering, surprises me

W&C isn't really a boutique per se, but they hired something like 4 times as many HLS grads as CLS ones. There are others like Consovoy McCarthy and Cooper & Kirk that don't recruit CLS people at all. Again, it's a very small set of firms, and it affects maybe 5% of each class, but it is something to keep in mind.
Those numbers don't surprise me for W&C, but in fairness they're hiring every year. The small conservative DC ones make sense I guess
This just isn't true. I know people from CLS who spent summers at Consovoy and Cooper & Kirk (both through Blackstone). Looking at Consovoy's website, only a single current attorney went to a school ranked higher than CLS. They have more Notre Dame and GMU grads than HLS...

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by jackshunger » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:32 pm

galba wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:
jackshunger wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:
jackshunger wrote: Clerkships are harder to get, some of the boutiques won't even look at you, our grading system and honors system is a mess. Overall way more good than bad, but something to keep in mind.
What boutiques don't hire from CLS? Just wondering, surprises me

W&C isn't really a boutique per se, but they hired something like 4 times as many HLS grads as CLS ones. There are others like Consovoy McCarthy and Cooper & Kirk that don't recruit CLS people at all. Again, it's a very small set of firms, and it affects maybe 5% of each class, but it is something to keep in mind.
Those numbers don't surprise me for W&C, but in fairness they're hiring every year. The small conservative DC ones make sense I guess
This just isn't true. I know people from CLS who spent summers at Consovoy and Cooper & Kirk (both through Blackstone). Looking at Consovoy's website, only a single current attorney went to a school ranked higher than CLS. They have more Notre Dame and GMU grads than HLS...

Maybe I just dont know their recruitment structure very well, but I have numerous friends at other schools with summers there and they did nothing at CLS past 2 years at least

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by BrainsyK » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:42 pm

jackshunger wrote:W&C isn't really a boutique per se, but they hired something like 4 times as many HLS grads as CLS ones. There are others like Consovoy McCarthy and Cooper & Kirk that don't recruit CLS people at all. Again, it's a very small set of firms, and it affects maybe 5% of each class, but it is something to keep in mind.
I think describing these employment at these firms as something that HYS students "take for granted" while CLS have reach hard for me is... at least a moderate exaggeration?--especially when the implication is that CLS isn't sufficiently elite.

W&C hires more GULC grads per capita than CLS. Susman hires more UT grads per capital than CLS grads. The difference in hiring is accounted for mostly by location, not school.

Consovoy McCarthy has lawyers from Creighton, GMU, and Vanderbilt. It has 1 HLS attorney and 0 SLS or YLS attorneys. It doesn't seem like they're above hiring CLS grads.

Cooper & Kirk recruits at HLS and has since at least 2016 but has 2 HLS lawyers, one of whom graduated in 1994 so I'm pretty sure that they're giving out 0 offers many years.

These firms as well as Dovel & Luner, Gibbs & Bruns, Wilkinson Walsh, Selendy & Gay, etc. have like 20 lawyers max, including founders, most of whom are lateral hires. They might interview at HYS but not CLS, but no one at HYS is taking an offer from any of them for granted.

If you Kent 1L and have the right politics and connections, an email application is about as likely to get you an offer at Cooper & Kirk as interviewing with them at HYS, which incidentally, is ~0%. I wouldn't call emailing your resume and transcript a "reach." Some might even consider that less of an effort than humping your way to the Doubletree at Times Square in a suit at the peak of summer to nervously sit around all day between interviews.

The only exception that I can think of is maybe Kellogg Hansen, which does interview at HLS and probably hires maybe 2-5/yr? You don't even receive a permanent offer there. You have to clerk first, which means if you have the credentials at CLS and summered somewhere else, you'd still be able to land Kellogg after clerking, which puts you in the same place financially as any other associate there.

HYS are better schools, and there are many reasons to go there over CLS--including a moderate preference for them by boutiques, but no one should skip out on CLS because they're nervous about their prospects of working at Cooper & Kirk. Everyone, even Yale graduates, is reaching if they want to work there.

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Re: Columbia Student Taking Questions

Post by jackshunger » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:57 pm

BrainsyK wrote:
jackshunger wrote:W&C isn't really a boutique per se, but they hired something like 4 times as many HLS grads as CLS ones. There are others like Consovoy McCarthy and Cooper & Kirk that don't recruit CLS people at all. Again, it's a very small set of firms, and it affects maybe 5% of each class, but it is something to keep in mind.
I think describing these employment at these firms as something that HYS students "take for granted" while CLS have reach hard for me is... at least a moderate exaggeration?--especially when the implication is that CLS isn't sufficiently elite.

W&C hires more GULC grads per capita than CLS. Susman hires more UT grads per capital than CLS grads. The difference in hiring is accounted for mostly by location, not school.

Consovoy McCarthy has lawyers from Creighton, GMU, and Vanderbilt. It has 1 HLS attorney and 0 SLS or YLS attorneys. It doesn't seem like they're above hiring CLS grads.

Cooper & Kirk recruits at HLS and has since at least 2016 but has 2 HLS lawyers, one of whom graduated in 1994 so I'm pretty sure that they're giving out 0 offers many years.

These firms as well as Dovel & Luner, Gibbs & Bruns, Wilkinson Walsh, Selendy & Gay, etc. have like 20 lawyers max, including founders, most of whom are lateral hires. They might interview at HYS but not CLS, but no one at HYS is taking an offer from any of them for granted.

If you Kent 1L and have the right politics and connections, an email application is about as likely to get you an offer at Cooper & Kirk as interviewing with them at HYS, which incidentally, is ~0%. I wouldn't call emailing your resume and transcript a "reach." Some might even consider that less of an effort than humping your way to the Doubletree at Times Square in a suit at the peak of summer to nervously sit around all day between interviews.

The only exception that I can think of is maybe Kellogg Hansen, which does interview at HLS and probably hires maybe 2-5/yr? You don't even receive a permanent offer there. You have to clerk first, which means if you have the credentials at CLS and summered somewhere else, you'd still be able to land Kellogg after clerking, which puts you in the same place financially as any other associate there.

HYS are better schools, and there are many reasons to go there over CLS--including a moderate preference for them by boutiques, but no one should skip out on CLS because they're nervous about their prospects of working at Cooper & Kirk. Everyone, even Yale graduates, is reaching if they want to work there.


I only used those as examples because I was discussing with one of my work buddies how to get a job there for the summer and he more or less stated one of the partners just sent an email that said "send me your resume" when he was at HLS. I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen at CLS, or at least hasnt happened to anyone I know.

For a more factual and less anecdotal example, W&C hired 16 people from HLS last year, they hired 3 from CLS. It was pretty similar the year before. Kellogg is also pretty similar, but they are more unique as you stated.

Other examples are that 1 person from CLS went to McKinsey last year, that number was way higher at HLS. These unicorn or non-traditional outcomes, again, affect like 5% or less of the class and I wouldnt make a decision based on them, I just wanted people to be aware.

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