Advice from law to Computer engineering Forum

[martindu]

Hi, I'm thinking of switching from law to computer engineering. I have been in law practice for some time, but I don't seem to enjoy the nature of the work. It seems to me Tech industry is more interesting and creative. But maybe it's the "grass is greener on the other side" mentality that comes into play. Could anyone kindly give your observations or judgement, on the profession or the career change (I'm near 30)? Any thought is welcome.

[makingthemove]

Hi, I'm thinking of switching from law to computer engineering. I have been in law practice for some time, but I don't seem to enjoy the nature of the work. It seems to me Tech industry is more interesting and creative. But maybe it's the "grass is greener on the other side" mentality that comes into play. Could anyone kindly give your observations or judgement, on the profession or the career change (I'm near 30)? Any thought is welcome.

This is very vague. What do you mean by computer engineering? What is your personal/family/financial situation? Are you thinking of becoming a maker or do you want to get to join a tech behemoth? Do you know how to code?

All these things matters a lot in what should be your next steps. For example, the type of computer engineering affects the optimal way to transition:
Hardware digital design? Get a masters in CSE/EE and take classes on the technology your interested in. Corporate-style software architecture/network? Get a CE master or take coursera classes and network to get an entry level job. Start-up/web apps/IoT startup? Do coursera things, buy some development kits and learn them.

Re your age, it will affect in you getting a first job, specially if you want to join tech behemoth. If you want to be a startup guy, no one will care.

[elendinel]

I agree with ^ regarding all the education aspects/age (to an extent, some startups may ding you for being "too old" but you probably don't want to work at a place like that anyway). Also why does it seem "more interesting and creative" to you? Are you imagining making the next Snapchat app or working at Google, or does the idea of sitting in an open office in a regional no-name startup for 10 hours a day debugging other people's code also sound fun to you? What do you actually think computer engineering is/what do you want to do in it?

There's not a whole lot to go on here, but FWIW I think a lot of lawyers who think of tech as "interesting and creative" but who have never actually been in the tech industry imagine that every programming job is like a fun startup where you're guaranteed to work on cool apps or to have input on how to make them/leeway to make a project your own in the truest sense of the word, but the reality isn't always that clear cut. Make sure you know the worst the field has to offer, in addition to the best, before you invest a lot of time and money into making a switch. If the idea of debugging someone's legacy C code still sounds a whole lot better than writing another motion, it's probably worth taking the plunge; if you can't imagine yourself being happy if you don't have a whole lot of control over a project you're working on, tech isn't necessarily going to solve that problem for you. Additionally, you may be able to solve that problem by choosing a different legal career (e.g., if you've been in biglaw doing corporate work this whole time, maybe the problem isn't the law, maybe the problem is you don't like corporate work/you don't like biglaw). Just some stuff to consider.

[martindu]

Hi, I'm thinking of switching from law to computer engineering. I have been in law practice for some time, but I don't seem to enjoy the nature of the work. It seems to me Tech industry is more interesting and creative. But maybe it's the "grass is greener on the other side" mentality that comes into play. Could anyone kindly give your observations or judgement, on the profession or the career change (I'm near 30)? Any thought is welcome.

This is very vague. What do you mean by computer engineering? What is your personal/family/financial situation? Are you thinking of becoming a maker or do you want to get to join a tech behemoth? Do you know how to code?

All these things matters a lot in what should be your next steps. For example, the type of computer engineering affects the optimal way to transition:
Hardware digital design? Get a masters in CSE/EE and take classes on the technology your interested in. Corporate-style software architecture/network? Get a CE master or take coursera classes and network to get an entry level job. Start-up/web apps/IoT startup? Do coursera things, buy some development kits and learn them.

Re your age, it will affect in you getting a first job, specially if you want to join tech behemoth. If you want to be a startup guy, no one will care.

Sorry for being vague at some point. I had two degrees, both non-science, no background in code or higher math. I wish to launch a startup one day, but to do that I'd better gain some experience working for a Tech employer (though that's where I am, in a legal role which I don't like). I intend to become a software engineer (also most in demand) by getting a CS degree. I have had some friends who made the switch from political science or language study to CS, so I think I may have a shot.

I don't have a JD degree, but a Master in law. I practice law in a foreign country.

[makingthemove]

Sorry for being vague at some point. I had two degrees, both non-science, no background in code or higher math. I wish to launch a startup one day, but to do that I'd better gain some experience working for a Tech employer (though that's where I am, in a legal role which I don't like). I intend to become a software engineer (also most in demand) by getting a CS degree. I have had some friends who made the switch from political science or language study to CS, so I think I may have a shot.

I don't have a JD degree, but a Master in law. I practice law in a foreign country.

Giving background for you to season the advice accordingly. I have a PhD in EE and BS in CSE, worked in midsize firms and start-ups (as well as academia). I also did quite a bit of teaching. I never did tech corporate.

Because you want to eventually launch a start-up, I recommend you spend a couple of years studying programming by yourself, with books, hackfests, and the million available free/cheap online course. This will provide you a community and skills that are directed to what you want to do while you get a paycheck that is actually decent to fund your interests. I only recommend the Masters + tech employer if you are a person that needs the structure to learn - and if that's the case you should really reconsider the start-up plan because it doesn't work if you're not self-driven. Working for a tech employer won't help you much in learning skills. It will provide access to network and money, but you already have the latter and you can do the former..

Generally, you (and anyone) has a shot - CS is more skills/merit driven than degree driven. The biggest barrier I found is that there are people just *don't get programming.* It's very odd - I taught super advanced math, chemistry and biochemistry to some really challenging students and got some success, but with programming it has always been a thing where they either got it and I was there to just tell them what they should study next, or they didn't get it and the whole thing never moved forward. You should probably figure out where you are IMHO.

[Subban_Fan]

Hi, I'm thinking of switching from law to computer engineering. I have been in law practice for some time, but I don't seem to enjoy the nature of the work. It seems to me Tech industry is more interesting and creative. But maybe it's the "grass is greener on the other side" mentality that comes into play. Could anyone kindly give your observations or judgement, on the profession or the career change (I'm near 30)? Any thought is welcome.

Do you want to do actual computer engineering or just work in the tech industry?

If you mean computer engineering:
Computer engineering can get very competitive. Electrical/Computer engineering classes have a reputation for being one of the harder engineer majors. It tends to be very mathy, even by engineering standards. Universities usually have a couple of EE core classes many people flunk out of where they are forced to switch majors.

Unlike in law, you're competing on a much larger scale. EE/Computer Engineering is a very popular major in countries like China and India. A lot of top students hope to major in it and end up at companies like Samsung, NVidia or Intel. Whereas in law, the competition isn't going to be near as rough -- you're not competing against some of the best students from China/India/Taiwan/Korea. A decent number of international students will be in a lot of your classes, at the grad level some of the students from schools like Tsinghua and IIT will be the most intelligent people you'll ever meet.

If you mean just working in the tech industry as a programmer:

A % of students who graduate with computer engineering degrees but whose grades are not stellar end up as software engineers/programmers. Aside from that, you can program with a computer science degree, a math degree, it doesn't really matter. Like someone else here already has mentioned, it's not really degree driven as much as whether you can prove you're a good programmer.

Programming can be extremely financially lucrative, but also ultra competitive. The pay can be ridiculous at the high end, with stock bonuses being crazy at some companies.

Getting these jobs require passing various technical interviews, usually done in front of 1 or a couple other engineers. If you cannot pass these technical interviews (the vast majority of comp sci and engineering majors can't), your grades, degree or school name won't save you. There are a few popular books that explain how to improve that you can study, but some people never do well. There are people who never pass these interviews with degrees out of good schools, but there are college dropouts that do well on these interviews.

Similar to computer engineering, the competition is fierce and there are good programmers coming out of every country applying to similar jobs. There are a lot of programmers really passionate about their work, some of the ones I know have been programming since they were teenagers for fun. They can get jobs at the major tech companies with amazing pay and benefits. On the flipside, there are some that never can due to the tech interviews (despite their much better grades or grad degree). I wouldn't worry about age, general consensus among hiring at the VC backed startups and major tech companies is, the vast majority of people can't code, so if you can code you'll be fine.

As for startups, which someone else mentioned, that can get very complex. It's similar to starting your own firm or joining a small firm. There are huge pay-offs and success stories just like in any other industry where you can start a business, there are far more failures, and a lot of luck is involved. I would suggest you read Chaos Monkeys, which is a book about startups, the culture of the tech industry, and the ridiculous riches and struggles in Silicone Valley.

[martindu]

Hi, I'm thinking of switching from law to computer engineering. I have been in law practice for some time, but I don't seem to enjoy the nature of the work. It seems to me Tech industry is more interesting and creative. But maybe it's the "grass is greener on the other side" mentality that comes into play. Could anyone kindly give your observations or judgement, on the profession or the career change (I'm near 30)? Any thought is welcome.

Do you want to do actual computer engineering or just work in the tech industry?

If you mean computer engineering:
Computer engineering can get very competitive. Electrical/Computer engineering classes have a reputation for being one of the harder engineer majors. It tends to be very mathy, even by engineering standards. Universities usually have a couple of EE core classes many people flunk out of where they are forced to switch majors.

Unlike in law, you're competing on a much larger scale. EE/Computer Engineering is a very popular major in countries like China and India. A lot of top students hope to major in it and end up at companies like Samsung, NVidia or Intel. Whereas in law, the competition isn't going to be near as rough -- you're not competing against some of the best students from China/India/Taiwan/Korea. A decent number of international students will be in a lot of your classes, at the grad level some of the students from schools like Tsinghua and IIT will be the most intelligent people you'll ever meet.

If you mean just working in the tech industry as a programmer:

A % of students who graduate with computer engineering degrees but whose grades are not stellar end up as software engineers/programmers. Aside from that, you can program with a computer science degree, a math degree, it doesn't really matter. Like someone else here already has mentioned, it's not really degree driven as much as whether you can prove you're a good programmer.

Programming can be extremely financially lucrative, but also ultra competitive. The pay can be ridiculous at the high end, with stock bonuses being crazy at some companies.

Getting these jobs require passing various technical interviews, usually done in front of 1 or a couple other engineers. If you cannot pass these technical interviews (the vast majority of comp sci and engineering majors can't), your grades, degree or school name won't save you. There are a few popular books that explain how to improve that you can study, but some people never do well. There are people who never pass these interviews with degrees out of good schools, but there are college dropouts that do well on these interviews.

Similar to computer engineering, the competition is fierce and there are good programmers coming out of every country applying to similar jobs. There are a lot of programmers really passionate about their work, some of the ones I know have been programming since they were teenagers for fun. They can get jobs at the major tech companies with amazing pay and benefits. On the flipside, there are some that never can due to the tech interviews (despite their much better grades or grad degree). I wouldn't worry about age, general consensus among hiring at the VC backed startups and major tech companies is, the vast majority of people can't code, so if you can code you'll be fine.

As for startups, which someone else mentioned, that can get very complex. It's similar to starting your own firm or joining a small firm. There are huge pay-offs and success stories just like in any other industry where you can start a business, there are far more failures, and a lot of luck is involved. I would suggest you read Chaos Monkeys, which is a book about startups, the culture of the tech industry, and the ridiculous riches and struggles in Silicone Valley.

OP here. Thanks for being so informative. I am envisioning a career in software engineering, also for immigration purpose as there can be plenty more jobs in tech world. I have witnessed two of my schoolmates who make similar moves from English/political science to CS by getting a Master and end up programming at big companies, though one of them did warn me that interviews are harder these days.

But with zero background in programming and higher math, I'm not sure if I can make it and stand out among the candidates vying for a job. I have to weigh lots of aspects. (Is it worth the effort? even simply for immigration)

[pancakes3]

to be clear, you're not American, not working in the US and need immigration sponsoring?

[makingthemove]

But with zero background in programming and higher math, I'm not sure if I can make it and stand out among the candidates vying for a job. I have to weigh lots of aspects. (Is it worth the effort? even simply for immigration)

I think you're trying to solve a two-goal problem here. You want to move from law to programming AND you want to immigrate and the solution is doing both. Your friends know you and know a path that you can follow, so they are in a better position than me on giving you specific advice.

But as this is the internet, I'm going to chime in: think about what you want to accomplish here. Do you dislike law and want to become a programmer? Do you dislike where you are and want to immigrate? Is it both?

If you like law and want to immigrate, becoming a tech guy will make you a very sad panda. It is very tiring and frustrating to someone that doesn't enjoy it. It might be better to try an LLM instead of a MS in CS. Or to ask around to see if there is a firm in your country that can allow you to move internally or something like that. If you like programming, immigrating as a tech guy is very likely going to be miserable. You're probably going to join one of the big IT consulting firms where you will work on very (VERY) boring mind numbing tasks for a low pay relative to the cost of living in the US, and you might be stuck in this job because of immigration issues.

[martindu]

to be clear, you're not American, not working in the US and need immigration sponsoring?

That's right.

[Subban_Fan]

But with zero background in programming and higher math, I'm not sure if I can make it and stand out among the candidates vying for a job. I have to weigh lots of aspects. (Is it worth the effort? even simply for immigration)

If you like law and want to immigrate, becoming a tech guy will make you a very sad panda. It is very tiring and frustrating to someone that doesn't enjoy it. It might be better to try an LLM instead of a MS in CS. Or to ask around to see if there is a firm in your country that can allow you to move internally or something like that. If you like programming, immigrating as a tech guy is very likely going to be miserable. You're probably going to join one of the big IT consulting firms where you will work on very (VERY) boring mind numbing tasks for a low pay relative to the cost of living in the US, and you might be stuck in this job because of immigration issues.

I think there are so many people from other professions or non-tech educational backgrounds wanting to go into programming because of all the news coverage about tech employees being minted millionaires after an IPO, or the ridiculous benefits for fresh grads at the major companies and VC backed start-ups.

I question whether most of these people suddenly interested actually "enjoy" programming. I think they "enjoy" the idea of a $200,000+ annual compensation, office ping pong tables, company shuttles to work, and hitting the office climbing wall after their free food from the cafeteria.

OP here. Thanks for being so informative. I am envisioning a career in software engineering, also for immigration purpose as there can be plenty more jobs in tech world. I have witnessed two of my schoolmates who make similar moves from English/political science to CS by getting a Master and end up programming at big companies, though one of them did warn me that interviews are harder these days.

But with zero background in programming and higher math, I'm not sure if I can make it and stand out among the candidates vying for a job. I have to weigh lots of aspects. (Is it worth the effort? even simply for immigration)

A distinction you need to be aware of is that, "computer engineering" isn't "software engineering." Computer engineers almost always have a degree in EE or Comp Eng. There isn't really a specific degree that lands you a software engineering job. Though you'll meet many software engineers with computer science degrees, you'll also meet people with physics backgrounds, math, or be dropouts. The former works on stuff like microprocessors or GPUs, the latter works on filters for your instagram photos. The difference in title and academic distinction will make a difference when you're applying for a work visa.

I'm guessing you're thinking of a graduate degree to make immigration easier. And getting a Master's in Computer Science (or a related major) is no walk in the park for most people. Getting a graduate degree in computer science, you'll be going through a lot of tougher math and theory than you would need to pass a technical interview (the technical interviews are "tricky", and not that related to what you learned in school). Programming, it's like doing a lot of hard high school math and advanced algebra. Actual computer science or engineering classes, you'll be doing more difficult math. A comp sci lab or electrical engineering final is a whole different animal than a law final. You'll be real thankful for the grading curve in a lot of classes.

You should considering taking a coding bootcamp. There are numerous ones out there, just make sure to find a reputable one (plenty of Americans score lucrative jobs from the reputable bootcamps in the U.S.). If you do well and enjoy programming, then look into software engineering related degrees that could help you score a job and immigrate. If you're struggling in the bootcamp, your comp sci classes in university are going to be a new level of academic pain you've never experienced.

Also, there's a lot of difference between "big" companies that hire many employees on H1-B visas. Interviewing and working at Google or Microsoft, is a very different experience than Infosys. Not going to go into that here, but you can easily Google that stuff.

[makingthemove]

Interviewing and working at Google or Microsoft, is a very different experience than Infosys.

this.

[elendinel]

Agree with everything Subban/makingthemove said, I'd also just caution against assuming tech is going to guarantee you a visa. It's true tech is more interested in international students/workers than the law (arguably only because the nature of the professions intuitively makes the need for people outside the country less great in law than in tech), but not all tech companies offer visas (just like not all law firms offer visas) and there are still thousands if not millions of international applicants who don't end up being able to get visas in tech. Subban alluded to it, but similar to law, it's the bigger/more established companies in the industry that will be reliable visa sponsors, and if you want one where you'll actually be doing cool/"sexy" work, it's probably going to be just as hard to get those positions as it'd be to shoot for biglaw (especially if you aren't naturally talented at math/programming). The last thing you want to do is go into SWE thinking you can go to some startup and get a visa/make $$$; there's a real possibility that you'll end up at a startup that goes belly-up in 6 months and leaves you without a job and a risk of getting ejected from the country, or that no startup in your target area will sponsor your visa. Or, the last thing you want to do is go get a CS degree thinking you'll be able to do cool creative stuff as an IBM consultant, because you won't; if anything that work could be more boring and rote than anything you may do in a biglaw firm outside of doc review.

[Subban_Fan]

Subban alluded to it, but similar to law, it's the bigger/more established companies in the industry that will be reliable visa sponsors, and if you want one where you'll actually be doing cool/"sexy" work, it's probably going to be just as hard to get those positions as it'd be to shoot for biglaw (especially if you aren't naturally talented at math/programming).

I will say though most of the people I know working at the elite companies are naturally talented at math, they also spend a ridiculous amount of time programming. So I'm not sure if it's an "innate talent" thing or the fact that they've done it for so long and so often that they've become that good. I'm going to guess most of the people who rank very high on hackerrank spend a large part of their day thinking about solving those programming problems.

A lot of them have been programming since they were in high school or even before. They already knew how to do it decently way before college. When they're not at work programming, they go home and talk about programming or are looking into new tech. I don't know near as many lawyers that write memos or do legal citations/research in their off-time, but I know many programmers who program for fun in their free time. They make a great living, with amazing stock perks and benefits, but they're legitimately interested in their tech and would probably do similar stuff for fun anyways.

But that's generally who OP is competing with. People who basically code and are into that stuff for fun. So, if he's not already experimenting with programming languages or learning on his own, it's going to be rough.

[elendinel]

But that's generally who OP is competing with. People who basically code and are into that stuff for fun. So, if he's not already experimenting with programming languages or learning on his own, it's going to be rough.

Yeah this was basically my point. It's not impossible to get the sexy Google job without a natural affinity towards math or programming, but it's arguably going to be as difficult as getting a good biglaw job would be (or said another way, it's no more easy to get a job at Google than it is to get a job at a top firm). Think of people with better affinities to these concepts as the T13 students of the field; it's not that everyone T14+ can't get biglaw, it's just that they have to put in a lot more effort to do so. The worse your math/programming abilities are, the harder you will have to grind to not end up doing the things people usually don't think about when they think "tech is fun" (debugging other people's code, implementing people's interfaces, etc.).

FWIW I agree lots of programming practice definitely helps, but at least IME some of the best programmers I know are the ones who are really great at understanding abstract math, regardless of whether they started coding twelve years ago or twelve months ago. IME there's a point at which people who don't have a mind for math have to basically brute force their way to more optimized code (i.e., they read up on how other people do stuff and then have to trial/error a bunch of things until something gives them the desired result), whereas people who are good at math have an easier time figuring out an algorithm to do something faster, even if they haven't learned the syntax for how to put that algorithm into practice. Which, again, doesn't preclude someone who sucks at math from getting a programming job; just means it's not going to be a walk in the park, by any means, and even if you spend five hours a day trying to learn how to program.

[Subban_Fan]

But that's generally who OP is competing with. People who basically code and are into that stuff for fun. So, if he's not already experimenting with programming languages or learning on his own, it's going to be rough.

Yeah this was basically my point. It's not impossible to get the sexy Google job without a natural affinity towards math or programming, but it's arguably going to be as difficult as getting a good biglaw job would be (or said another way, it's no more easy to get a job at Google than it is to get a job at a top firm). Think of people with better affinities to these concepts as the T13 students of the field; it's not that everyone T14+ can't get biglaw, it's just that they have to put in a lot more effort to do so. The worse your math/programming abilities are, the harder you will have to grind to not end up doing the things people usually don't think about when they think "tech is fun" (debugging other people's code, implementing people's interfaces, etc.).

Agree with everything in your post except for the debugging part. Not sure about what they did at your company, but it would seem counter-intuitive to give a bad programmer the job of fixing code, when they themselves can't code.

Debugging is high-level work and usually the programmers get to do it -- you need to be good to fix problems, whereas many programmers create them and more work for the team. Some companies, you have to debug your own code, and other people can see the terrible code if it's done it poorly and are free to comment on what a crappy job it is.

You're spot-on about implementing though. I've also noticed a lot of programmers that started out later or aren't coding experts, but are still good end up in front-end a lot. Ideally, that would be where OP would want to land (front-end is stereotypically less mathy, but similar cushy software engineer benefits). I don't think he'd be likely to get a work visa for implementation work unless it was with one of those outsourcing companies that horde visas and I would think a crackdown on that will be happening soon.

I highly recommend OP read this before jumping into an academic program. The culture's really different than in law. https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant- ... s-program/

[makingthemove]

But that's generally who OP is competing with. People who basically code and are into that stuff for fun. So, if he's not already experimenting with programming languages or learning on his own, it's going to be rough.

Yeah this was basically my point. It's not impossible to get the sexy Google job without a natural affinity towards math or programming, but it's arguably going to be as difficult as getting a good biglaw job would be (or said another way, it's no more easy to get a job at Google than it is to get a job at a top firm). Think of people with better affinities to these concepts as the T13 students of the field; it's not that everyone T14+ can't get biglaw, it's just that they have to put in a lot more effort to do so. The worse your math/programming abilities are, the harder you will have to grind to not end up doing the things people usually don't think about when they think "tech is fun" (debugging other people's code, implementing people's interfaces, etc.).

Agree with everything in your post except for the debugging part. Not sure about what they did at your company, but it would seem counter-intuitive to give a bad programmer the job of fixing code, when they themselves can't code.

Debugging is high-level work and usually the programmers get to do it -- you need to be good to fix problems, whereas many programmers create them and more work for the team. Some companies, you have to debug your own code, and other people can see the terrible code if it's done it poorly and are free to comment on what a crappy job it is.

You're spot-on about implementing though. I've also noticed a lot of programmers that started out later or aren't coding experts, but are still good end up in front-end a lot. Ideally, that would be where OP would want to land (front-end is stereotypically less mathy, but similar cushy software engineer benefits). I don't think he'd be likely to get a work visa for implementation work unless it was with one of those outsourcing companies that horde visas and I would think a crackdown on that will be happening soon.

I highly recommend OP read this before jumping into an academic program. The culture's really different than in law. https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant- ... s-program/

I think there might be some confusion going on between Q&A and debugging. Some software shops have a few lowly programmers doing bug hunting and feature testing - specially in the UI where you can't do super good unit testing. But yeah debugging is usually done by peeps that can code.