Patent Bar Exam Qualifications Forum

[CU312]

I'm a rising sophomore at Cornell University intending on majoring in computer science and over the summer have started to get interested in patent law. However, after doing some research, it seems that to take the patent bar exam requires a computer science degree from an ABET accredited program. It seems that other top computer science programs such as MIT are also not ABET accredited, making it seem like a funny rule considering it seems like its suppose to make sure the computer science degrees being submitted are legit, yet it's keeping out students from some of the top programs in the US......
After doing some research, however, I have seen that there is an option to still be qualified to sit given if one has 40 semester hours in a combination consisting of the following: 8 semester hours of chemistry or 8 semester hours of physics, and 32 semester hours of chemistry, physics, biology, botany, microbiology, molecular biology, or engineering. (Says computer science courses may count depending on nature of the course)
I already have 8 semesters hours of chemistry, will an undergraduate degree from Cornell most likely meet this expectation?

If anyone has a similar experience or can offer and advice that would be awesome.

[A. Nony Mouse]

It looks like Cornell is ABET accredited? http://main.abet.org/aps/Accreditedprogramsearch.aspx (MIT too.)

[CU312]

Other engineering degrees at the school are but computer science is not.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Ah, okay. Sorry.

[deuceindc]

I was in a similar situation (my program wasn't on the PTO's list of recognized degrees) and qualified by having enough total qualifying credit hours. Call PTO OED if you have any specific questions.

[CU312]

How hard was it in your experience to get permission to sit for the exam? Considering I am a sophomore and I do end up going to law school, I would like to avoid a situation that for some reason I am not allowed to sit for the exam. I'm assuming that a normal computer science program along with my 8 credits in chemistry would suffice for the category B requirements? And if not would a couple night classes at community college make up for any deficiencies?

[conker]

I'm a rising sophomore at Cornell University intending on majoring in computer science and over the summer have started to get interested in patent law. However, after doing some research, it seems that to take the patent bar exam requires a computer science degree from an ABET accredited program. It seems that other top computer science programs such as MIT are also not ABET accredited, making it seem like a funny rule considering it seems like its suppose to make sure the computer science degrees being submitted are legit, yet it's keeping out students from some of the top programs in the US......
After doing some research, however, I have seen that there is an option to still be qualified to sit given if one has 40 semester hours in a combination consisting of the following: 8 semester hours of chemistry or 8 semester hours of physics, and 32 semester hours of chemistry, physics, biology, botany, microbiology, molecular biology, or engineering. (Says computer science courses may count depending on nature of the course)
I already have 8 semesters hours of chemistry, will an undergraduate degree from Cornell most likely meet this expectation?

If anyone has a similar experience or can offer and advice that would be awesome.

The USPTO does not require that someone have an ABET-accredited CS degree to sit for the patent bar. They do not even require that someone have an ABET-accredited degree, of any kind, to sit for the patent bar.

Have you considered that MIT's CS program is not among the top in the U.S.?

My advice is to look at your curriculum (why anyone here would hold your hand through this is anyone's guess, but I won't because it does not seem that you are trying very hard, and this post reminds me of a troll). Whether or not your degree meets the hourly requirements depends entirely on your curriculum. It could possibly even come down to the electives you choose. Why don't you consider speaking to your advisor and the USPTO regarding "depending on the nature of the course" if you are having difficulty understanding?



Based on your degree program, you have to fall under one of the following to be able to sit for the patent bar:

1. 24 semester hours in physics. Only physics courses for physics majors will be accepted.

2. 32 semester hours in a combination consisting of the following: 8 semester hours of chemistry or 8 semester hours of physics, and 24 semester hours in biology, botany, microbiology, or molecular biology. The 8 semester hours in chemistry or 8 semester hours of physics must be obtained in two sequential courses, each course including a lab. Only courses for science or engineering majors will be accepted.

3. 30 semester hours in chemistry. Only chemistry courses for chemistry majors will be accepted.

4. 40 semester hours in a combination consisting of the following: 8 semester hours of chemistry or 8 semester hours of physics, and 32 semester hours of chemistry, physics, biology, botany, microbiology, molecular biology, or engineering. (For Computer Science, see other acceptable course work.)* The 8 semester hours of chemistry or 8 semester hours of physics must be obtained in two sequential courses, each course including a lab. Only courses for science or engineering majors will be accepted. For Computer Science, see other "Other Acceptable Course Work." All acceptable coursework for Options 2 and 4 must be for science or engineering majors.

*
"Other Acceptable Course Work: Under Option 4, up to four semester hours will be accepted for courses in design engineering or drafting. Also, under Option 4, computer science courses that stress theoretical foundations, analysis, and design, and include substantial laboratory work, including software development will be accepted. Such courses include the representation and transformation of information structures, the theoretical models for such representations and transformations, basic coverage of algorithms, data structures, software design with a laboratory, programming languages with a laboratory, and computer organization and architecture. Other acceptable courses in computer science include artificial intelligence and robotics, networking, linear circuits, logic circuits, operating systems, and software methodology and engineering. However, the courses may not be substituted for the eight semester hours of chemistry or physics required under Option 4.

"Typical Non-Acceptable Course Work: The following typify courses that are not accepted as demonstrating the necessary scientific and technical training: anthropology; astronomy; audited courses; behavioral science courses such as psychology and sociology; continuing legal education courses; courses in public health; courses relating technology to politics or policy; courses offered by corporations to corporate employees; courses in management, business administration and operations research; courses on how to use computer software; courses directed to data management and management information systems; courses to develop manual, processing or fabrication skills (e.g. machine operation, wiring, soldering, etc.); courses taken on a pass/fail basis; correspondence courses; ecology; economics of technology; courses in the history of science, engineering and technology; field identification of plants and/or animals; home or personal independent study courses; high school level courses; mathematics courses; one day conferences; patent law courses; paleontology; political science courses; repair and maintenance courses; radio operator license courses; science courses for non- science majors; vocational training courses; and work study programs. Also not accepted are college research or seminar courses where the course content and requirements are not set forth in the course descriptions; and courses that do not provide scientific and technical training. Further, not accepted are courses that repeat, or which are substantially the same as, or are lesser-included courses for which credit has already been given."


Consider yourself at a disadvantage, as the patent bar will test your resourcefulness.

[markdighton]

You shouldn't have any trouble qualifying to take the Exam if you get a Computer Science degree from Cornell.

The ABET list of accredited programs can be somewhat counter-intuitive. Some second-rate programs went to ABET to get accredited to bootstrap themselves into respectability. Most of the top programs (e.g., MIT and Cornell) were offended at the idea that they should have to go to ABET to prove themselves...'everyone knows we're the best!' Most of even the best programs long ago acceded to ABET accreditation, just to make it easier for them and their students. I'm surprised Cornell hasn't come around. But maybe that's Cornell (and MIT) for you. (Still, I'd try to raise the issue with the department. If they accredit the program by the time you graduate, this WILL be MUCH easier!)

The stumbling block for many Computer Science majors whose programs aren't ABET-accredited is the two consecutive courses in Chemistry or Physics, each course including a lab, totaling 8 semester hours. But it sounds like you have that. (Or you absolutely SHOULD get that before you graduate.) Also, avoid anything too theoretical or too mathematical (statistics), if you think you're going to be in danger of not having enough true programming and engineering-type classes.

If you have the required coursework, you should easily qualify to sit for the Exam under Category B. You'll have to spend an extra afternoon printing out a bunch of stuff that you'll send to the Patent Office. But they'll get back to you in 3-4 weeks (as opposed to the 2 weeks it takes for Category A applicants...those with the degrees that automatically qualify...including ABET-accredited Comp Sci programs). So, it's really NOT that big of a difference. And employers don't care AT ALL! This A versus B thing is something that matters ONLY to the Patent Office, and only for this one little thing.

If you can, you should take the Exam BEFORE you start law school. The Patent Office doesn't care about anything you do in law school, and law school will teach you little (nothing, usually) of what's on the Exam. Having passed the Registration Exam before starting law school should put you on a career trajectory that almost no one else can compete with.

Sincerely,
Mark Dighton
Admin. Director, PLI Patent Office Exam Course

[markdighton]

P.S.: CU312: Don't be discouragerd by what Conker wrote. I think s/he's being WAY too hard on you. Geez! You're a sophomore, and you've thought this through pretty carefully and clearly. (Yes, you didn't spell out all of the specifics, but you clearly have a good grasp of the issues.) I deal with law students and lawyers all the time who aren't where you are already at TWO YEARS before you can take the Exam! (May not speak well of their opportunities in the field, but you're still WAY ahead of the curve that I see. And I deal with more than a thousand people a year on this!)
Mark

[conker]

P.S.: CU312: Don't be discouragerd by what Conker wrote. I think s/he's being WAY too hard on you. Geez! You're a sophomore, and you've thought this through pretty carefully and clearly. (Yes, you didn't spell out all of the specifics, but you clearly have a good grasp of the issues.) I deal with law students and lawyers all the time who aren't where you are already at TWO YEARS before you can take the Exam! (May not speak well of their opportunities in the field, but you're still WAY ahead of the curve that I see. And I deal with more than a thousand people a year on this!)
Mark

OP, mention "IPWatchdog" and save 10% of the money Mark is after.

[elendinel]

Consider yourself at a disadvantage, as the patent bar will test your resourcefulness.

Lolwut?

Yeah OP you're fine; I had to do something similar. Just get PDFs of pages of your course catalog or syllabi that show what was taught in your comp sci/chemistry classes and send it along with your application. They're not likely to ding you, but if they do, you can make up whatever credits they think you need at a local CC. Feel free to PM me if you want any advice.

[Anthony304]

I have a Bachelor of Science in Engineering Technology which is ABET accredited. I called USPTO to see if my degree qualifies for patent bar exam and they said it does not qualify under category A, but I can look at the other categories. Does anyone have any info about this? I hope I won't have to take FE exam.

[surflea]

Though this is obviously a very stale thread, I write this for the benefit of anyone else who stumbles across this page to help them understand a few things.

First, the question regarding lab requirements as related to computer science courses is valid. Generally, there are enough classes in the core cs requirements at most flagship universities, as well as most secondary level state universities (think Cal State abc or Minnesota State xyz), to satisfy the requirements.

Also, many liberal arts school cs programs qualify, particularly from well-respected programs (think top 100 schools in the liberal arts school list), but also from many others -- particularly programs where the majority of the work is completed on campus.

Additionally, with regard to the Physics or Chemistry credits, the requirements for section b, option 4, seem to have changed from what I seem to remember being a necessity that the courses be two consecutive courses with labs (meaning it all has to be physics or all chemistry with at least one course non-introductory) to any combination of physics, chemistry or biology with only one lab requirement. This seems to significantly ease the requirement for people who haven't taken these kinds of courses in many years.

To be safe though, I might still follow the old rules. You would get more out of the courses that way anyway. The key is to make sure the courses are of a type acceptable for credit for the degree they refer to and aren't geared towards general studies students, non-science majors, or certain other "soft" sciences not related to the course you're taking.

For instance, I didn't even have a cs undergrad degree but rather a master's degree in cs but I had to take the core computer science courses for the bachelor's cs to qualify for the master's program (at a school specifically accredited according to the USPTO rules, but not nearly as distinguished as Cornell). It worked out just fine.

There is a lot of computer science related work available and much of it isn't being handled by people with backgrounds in computer science whom are sometimes not well suited to understand cs specific technologies. It seems a shame for so many years cs majors were excluded and still are to some extent. Fortunately, it seems the requirement of one particular accreditation has been dropped and replaced with just a requirement for non-specific accreditation.

Sadly, having worked for multinationals as well as smaller engineering-specific organizations, when the engineers came first, some hold an inexplicable grudge against the computer science upstarts demanding equal treatment. Fortunately, based on the pay scales, management usually disagrees. Over time, it’s become more and more of a losing argument.

I think the hands-on nature of most lower-level programming courses in core languages like C++, Python, Java, Lisp, etc. meet the lab requirement due to the amount of actual programming work required without needing credit for a specific separate lab credit. This may not be true for courses of a purely introductory nature (often courses not for CS majors), listed solely as prerequisites for required courses, or in mostly practical subjects like database administration or perhaps some web design electives, but I could be mistaken.

Remember to check with the USPTO office directly though rather than relying on my general perceptions. Every class, school and situation is different. I only wish to convey general impressions.

Finally, please remember in all sciences there are some people who are autistic in a manner which used to be described as Asperger’s Syndrome. They're easy to spot. I won't name names, but it just goes with the territory. They put up with behavior in this practice area that's slightly worse than they would in most others. This is true in engineering and computer science shops as well though that type seems to be slightly less verbal and more withdrawn.

I mean no offense; they can be very interesting people if you can overlook the slightly thorny aspects of their personality. I should know, I have a family member with autism. They don't perceive social cues very well and sometimes don't appreciate the feelings of others. They can become overwhelmed in social situations. They mean no harm. It's just an extra challenge for them they sometimes can't overcome.

In situations like this, just ignore and be grateful for your ability to moderate your behavior appropriately. They often have difficult lives because of their special challenges, and it can breed negativity. I usually try not to call them out, but sometimes, they can be truly out of line and in need of patient redirection.