What's the chances for appealing a academic dismissal? Forum

[CHFuller]

Not sure where such a topic should be posted in, if anywhere...but here's goes:

Hello TLS, I'm a parent of someone who is currently in a law school, albeit a lower-tier one. My son, who just finished his 1st year of law school, received an email this morning from his school saying that he is facing academic dismissal from the school over a low GPA. He never failed any of his classes, but just that his GPA ended up lower than what the school required continuing students to have (it was under what the school felt students who passed the bar usually has). He already sent an appeal email back to the school after a good hour of thinking his response over, so it's in the school's hands now unfortunately (I'm unsure if he could send a 2nd email to add anything after the fact though).

But based on what your experiences were, or what you guys' best guesses are...what is the chance of my son's appeal against dismissal actually getting approved? We'd like him to keep on in his current school and finish his 3 years successfully. He knew what mistakes he made last year were...and from our talk with him today, he seems to know what he needed to get done (do office hours, improve memorization, ask help from school's Study Aid office). He wrote as such in his appeal email too, of course. Neither my kid or us wants the school of deny his appeal, but we know that's literally 1 of 2 choices he's facing now.

If my kid's school allows for a follow-up email to add any additional comments to his already-sent appeal email...what should we advise him to write? He wasn't facing depression or any other common "poor performance" reasons...he just underestimated his courseload, and his memorization ability has always been his weakness since he was a kid (son had shown flashes and ability to do well in memorizing stuff, but never was good at it).

[Npret]

Why would he continue in law school?

At any rate, I feel his chances are low as it's doubtful he will be able to improve significantly. Memorization is not a all the key to law school but failing to memorize will kill him on the bar exam.

I appreciate your concern here but it seems that law school is not for him and the law school is doing him a favor by not letting him continue. It's better to leave now than throw more money and effort into an endeavor that is unlikely to succeed.

[UVA2B]

I sincerely appreciate your concern, and I'm not entirely sure anyone can advise you knowledgeably in your particular problem.

Given your son has been interacting with the school about his dismissal, his best bet is probably to get advice from a local attorney familiar with bar passage in that jurisdiction who can raise claims on his behalf. No one in this community will reasonably offer advice to deal with the law school dismissing your son because the factual circumstance is, at best, circumstantial.

What has your son done to this point to avoid dismissal beyond recognizing he struggles with law school classes?

[sublime]

If he got along well with any particular professor, that may be a place to look for advice as well.

The majority of posters here don't have much experience with academic dismissal because in higher ranked schools, barring exceptional circumstances, it isn't something that they really do.

Best of luck to your son. I hope it works out for the best.

[Npret]

If he got along well with any particular professor, that may be a place to look for advice as well.

The majority of posters here don't have much experience with academic dismissal because in higher ranked schools, barring exceptional circumstances, it isn't something that they really do.

Best of luck to your son. I hope it works out for the best.

I'm curious as to whether a student doing so poorly that the school doesn't want to take his money anymore can successfully turn his school career around and pass the bar. It just seems like such a difficult slog.

I fully admit that I don't have direct experience with this situation. But I feel that maybe taking a step back and seeing that maybe this isn't the right career path could be beneficial.

I do hope everything works out for them. I know my posts are harsh.

[CHFuller]

Well, his appeal email is already sent to the law school, so I'm not sure if he could add a second email to that at this point. His school isn't dismissing him just yet...they told my kid they'll go to a review team and will look at an appeal response before deciding the outcome in 2 weeks.

We lives in a different state than where he goes to school in (school is CA, but we're in TX), but we'll travel to California in July and try and see if we can find a local lawyer to help out. He told the school in his email that he honestly believe that he can make changes to his study habit and life to improve his grades. And that becoming a lawyer was what he wanted to be as a kid and he wants to regain the school's trust in him because he failed them with his grades. He never failed any of his classes, just got below what the school wanted. My kid told me he formed a study group with some friends he's made over there and they've been reviewing over 1st-year materials via Skype since he came back home...but I'm not sure if that'll help him, if at all at this point (his appeal were sent this morning).

But thank for the replies everyone...we'll cross our fingers and hope the review committee rules in favor of him. We're just concerned that he doesn't really have any job lined up in case the appeal fails (our son never worked a job before, so if his appeal fails, his resume's a bit lacking). My son's been planning on becoming a lawyer since childhood (took only law-related courses, clubs, etc in college/hs)...so we really don't know what other career path he can turn to now.

[sublime]

If he got along well with any particular professor, that may be a place to look for advice as well.

The majority of posters here don't have much experience with academic dismissal because in higher ranked schools, barring exceptional circumstances, it isn't something that they really do.

Best of luck to your son. I hope it works out for the best.

I'm curious as to whether a student doing so poorly that the school doesn't want to take his money anymore can successfully turn his school career around and pass the bar. It just seems like such a difficult slog.

I fully admit that I don't have direct experience with this situation. But I feel that maybe taking a step back and seeing that maybe this isn't the right career path could be beneficial.

I do hope everything works out for them. I know my posts are harsh.

From what I have read about and anecdotally, it is fairly common in schools with lower bar passage rates, and at risk for losing accreditation or otherwise recieving pressure to raise their passage rate. My understanding is that it is particularly common in California and at for profit schools. Admittedly, I don't have a basis for this more than things I have randomly read around here or other articles, so grain of salt and all that.

[CHFuller]

If he got along well with any particular professor, that may be a place to look for advice as well.

The majority of posters here don't have much experience with academic dismissal because in higher ranked schools, barring exceptional circumstances, it isn't something that they really do.

Best of luck to your son. I hope it works out for the best.

I'm curious as to whether a student doing so poorly that the school doesn't want to take his money anymore can successfully turn his school career around and pass the bar. It just seems like such a difficult slog.

I fully admit that I don't have direct experience with this situation. But I feel that maybe taking a step back and seeing that maybe this isn't the right career path could be beneficial.

I do hope everything works out for them. I know my posts are harsh.

From what I have read about and anecdotally, it is fairly common in schools with lower bar passage rates, and at risk for losing accreditation or otherwise recieving pressure to raise their passage rate. My understanding is that it is particularly common in California and at for profit schools. Admittedly, I don't have a basis for this more than things I have randomly read around here or other articles, so grain of salt and all that.

Yes, my kid goes to a California law school. And the school's bar passage last year was 65%, which was a bit low when we heard it, but school said the number has been rising each year since 2010 or so. The school has a high transfer-out attempt-ratio...so we're hoping that can help persuade the review committee to keep my son (in probation if need be).

[Sprout]

He should stop. I'm from CA and have a lot of friends at CA law schools. It's not a good situation. The brutal honest truth is that CA law schools, besides like 4 of them, are shit. Yes, if you're the top of your class you can make it regionally. But you have to be at the top of your class. Your son doesn't sound like he is at all (not trying to be rude -- I'm at the middle or less of my class myself).

Does he have a dif career model? Maybe a professor that liked him for a reference? I don't see this getting better. Sorry

[rpupkin]

But thank for the replies everyone...we'll cross our fingers and hope the review committee rules in favor of him. We're just concerned that he doesn't really have any job lined up in case the appeal fails (our son never worked a job before, so if his appeal fails, his resume's a bit lacking). My son's been planning on becoming a lawyer since childhood (took only law-related courses, clubs, etc in college/hs)...so we really don't know what other career path he can turn to now.

I know you're trying to do what's best for your son, and I mean no disrespect, but you should think hard about whether you're really helping your son here by encouraging him to continue his legal education even though his own school believes he's unfit to practice law.

The legal profession is very competitive. There are many more law graduates than there are legal jobs. You don't have to be a star law student—or even a good law student—to make it as a young lawyer, but you do need minimum competency. And even if you have that minimum competency, you usually also need prior work experience and/or maturity and charisma. Your school thinks your son lacks minimum competency. And now you tell us that he's never even held a job before. Also, the fact you're helping your son here is not a good sign. I understand why you're intervening, but it's telling that you think he can't handle this situation himself.

Your son would benefit enormously from taking two or three years and working in a job—any job—that would give him some life experience. If he still wants to be a lawyer after a few years, he can decide to make that happen. (And if he does decide that, he'll be in a better position to succeed.) But if you insist on helping him press ahead now, I fear that you're committing him to a future of near-certain professional failure.

[Sprout]

But thank for the replies everyone...we'll cross our fingers and hope the review committee rules in favor of him. We're just concerned that he doesn't really have any job lined up in case the appeal fails (our son never worked a job before, so if his appeal fails, his resume's a bit lacking). My son's been planning on becoming a lawyer since childhood (took only law-related courses, clubs, etc in college/hs)...so we really don't know what other career path he can turn to now.

I know you're trying to do what's best for your son, and I mean no disrespect, but you should think hard about whether you're really helping your son here by encouraging him to continue his legal education even though his own school believes he's unfit to practice law.

The legal profession is very competitive. There are many more law graduates than there are legal jobs. You don't have to be a star law student—or even a good law student—to make it as a young lawyer, but you do need minimum competency. And even if you have that minimum competency, you usually also need prior work experience and/or maturity and charisma. Your school thinks your son lacks minimum competency. And now you tell us that he's never even held a job before. Also, the fact you're helping your son here is not a good sign. I understand why you're intervening, but it's telling that you think he can't handle this situation himself.

Your son would benefit enormously from taking two or three years and working in a job—any job—that would give him some life experience. If he still wants to be a lawyer after a few years, he can decide to make that happen. (And if he does decide that, he'll be in a better position to succeed.) But if you insist on helping him press ahead now, I fear that you're committing him to a future of near-certain professional failure.

sry OP but this is actually the credited response

[cavalier1138]

But thank for the replies everyone...we'll cross our fingers and hope the review committee rules in favor of him. We're just concerned that he doesn't really have any job lined up in case the appeal fails (our son never worked a job before, so if his appeal fails, his resume's a bit lacking). My son's been planning on becoming a lawyer since childhood (took only law-related courses, clubs, etc in college/hs)...so we really don't know what other career path he can turn to now.

I know you're trying to do what's best for your son, and I mean no disrespect, but you should think hard about whether you're really helping your son here by encouraging him to continue his legal education even though his own school believes he's unfit to practice law.

The legal profession is very competitive. There are many more law graduates than there are legal jobs. You don't have to be a star law student—or even a good law student—to make it as a young lawyer, but you do need minimum competency. And even if you have that minimum competency, you usually also need prior work experience and/or maturity and charisma. Your school thinks your son lacks minimum competency. And now you tell us that he's never even held a job before. Also, the fact you're helping your son here is not a good sign. I understand why you're intervening, but it's telling that you think he can't handle this situation himself.

Your son would benefit enormously from taking two or three years and working in a job—any job—that would give him some life experience. If he still wants to be a lawyer after a few years, he can decide to make that happen. (And if he does decide that, he'll be in a better position to succeed.) But if you insist on helping him press ahead now, I fear that you're committing him to a future of near-certain professional failure.

Yeah, I'm signing on to this response.

OP: you mentioned concerns about your son having trouble finding a job. I'm not saying that he'll have an easy time of it, but his chances of finding something to pay the bills are better when those bills don't include another two years of debt from a school that doesn't give him a fighting chance at working as a lawyer. You also mentioned that the school's bar passage rate was lower than you had previously thought. I'd recommend that both you and your son do some serious research on this school, because the type of school that has these issues will also have problems placing its graduates in decent jobs.

[it's allgood]

Not sure where such a topic should be posted in, if anywhere...but here's goes:

Hello TLS, I'm a parent of someone who is currently in a law school, albeit a lower-tier one. My son, who just finished his 1st year of law school, received an email this morning from his school saying that he is facing academic dismissal from the school over a low GPA. He never failed any of his classes, but just that his GPA ended up lower than what the school required continuing students to have (it was under what the school felt students who passed the bar usually has). He already sent an appeal email back to the school after a good hour of thinking his response over, so it's in the school's hands now unfortunately (I'm unsure if he could send a 2nd email to add anything after the fact though).

But based on what your experiences were, or what you guys' best guesses are...what is the chance of my son's appeal against dismissal actually getting approved? We'd like him to keep on in his current school and finish his 3 years successfully. He knew what mistakes he made last year were...and from our talk with him today, he seems to know what he needed to get done (do office hours, improve memorization, ask help from school's Study Aid office). He wrote as such in his appeal email too, of course. Neither my kid or us wants the school of deny his appeal, but we know that's literally 1 of 2 choices he's facing now.

If my kid's school allows for a follow-up email to add any additional comments to his already-sent appeal email...what should we advise him to write? He wasn't facing depression or any other common "poor performance" reasons...he just underestimated his courseload, and his memorization ability has always been his weakness since he was a kid (son had shown flashes and ability to do well in memorizing stuff, but never was good at it).

Sounds a bit trollish to me. It sounds like a 13 year old wrote this. It is odd referring to an adult son as a kid several times.

[CHFuller]

Nothing wrong calling him a kid if he is my kid after all.

But thank for the insights everyone. We'll wait for the appeal committee to makes its decision in a couple weeks, because he has already sent in his appeal already. My son already made plans to enroll in a 1L study/review program for the summer at a law-prep class, so he'll be getting more help on his school material during the summer break. And if the appeal didn't work out, I'll suggest to him to get a job for a year or two and reapply for law school if still wanted to.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Sounds a bit trollish to me. It sounds like a 13 year old wrote this. It is odd referring to an adult son as a kid several times.

It's not odd at all for a parent to refer to their son as a kid.

OP, I also agree that your son would benefit from some time off working. I also don't think memorization is really the issue in most law school exams, unless the school is one that accepts a large percentage of applicants and then weeds them out through a harsh curve (which is usually a school with poor employment prospects). I say that only to suggest he may need to consider further what went wrong with his performance so far.

Also, I mean this very respectfully, but I feel like it's your son who needs to be asking these questions and figuring out his options.

[chicagoburger]

If my kid's school allows for a follow-up email to add any additional comments to his already-sent appeal email...what should we advise him to write? He wasn't facing depression or any other common "poor performance" reasons...he just underestimated his courseload, and his memorization ability has always been his weakness since he was a kid (son had shown flashes and ability to do well in memorizing stuff, but never was good at it).

I would strongly suggest you to seek help from an attorney who specializes in educational law. They are the pros to handle such school matters.

[cavalier1138]

If my kid's school allows for a follow-up email to add any additional comments to his already-sent appeal email...what should we advise him to write? He wasn't facing depression or any other common "poor performance" reasons...he just underestimated his courseload, and his memorization ability has always been his weakness since he was a kid (son had shown flashes and ability to do well in memorizing stuff, but never was good at it).

I would strongly suggest you to seek help from an attorney who specializes in educational law. They are the pros to handle such school matters.

I would strongly suggest that people who have never set foot in a law school don't give advice about the inner workings of legal education.

[A. Nony Mouse]

If my kid's school allows for a follow-up email to add any additional comments to his already-sent appeal email...what should we advise him to write? He wasn't facing depression or any other common "poor performance" reasons...he just underestimated his courseload, and his memorization ability has always been his weakness since he was a kid (son had shown flashes and ability to do well in memorizing stuff, but never was good at it).

I would strongly suggest you to seek help from an attorney who specializes in educational law. They are the pros to handle such school matters.

People who specialize in educational law sue (or defend) schools, they don't advise on parsing academic performance. Sigh.

(Though this also reminds me...OP, one reason for your son to take time off and work is that it becomes much easier to show personal growth/maturity with some time off, and to be able to present a narrative of previously going to law school before quite being ready, but now, having taken time to learn how to handle responsibility better, being ready to handle it. It's harder to show change/potential for success immediately after the poor semester.)

[LurkerTurnedMember]

I generally agree with prior posters that your son should reevaluate whether law school is right for him at least for right now, because, and with all due respect, if he's having such trouble now at a lower ranked school he's likely going to have trouble with the bar exam, landing a job, etc. On the other hand, though, it seems fishy that a school would admit students and then have what sounds like a grade cut off it uses to kick students out. Since grades in law school are on a curve, does this mean their kicking students out is a routine practice for some part of a class every first year? If so, were they upfront with this when he was applying? Was it a readily perceivable practice? I'm not giving you legal advice or trying to because I don't know much about educational law but just generally I'm wondering how it could be legal for a school to entice and accept students into its class--students who it can probably tell won't do well on the bar given their correlative lsat/gpa during admissions--take their money during 1L year, and then kick them out in the cold to maintain their bar rates and other similar factors it probably uses to entice and admit the next batch of students it plans to kick out, especially if this practice wasn't readily understood by applicants.

[cavalier1138]

On the other hand, though, it seems fishy that a school would admit students and then have what sounds like a grade cut off it uses to kick students out. Since grades in law school are on a curve, does this mean their kicking students out is a routine practice for some part of a class every first year? If so, were they upfront with this when he was applying? Was it a readily perceivable practice?

This is a well-documented practice at almost every bad law school in the nation. ABA 509 forms have a specific field to show 1L attrition rates, so the information is available.

It used to be done more often, back in the days when Harvard gave out failing grades. But for reasons which vary based on how cynical your reading of the situation is, most legitimate law schools only lose students due to grades in extreme cases.

[Npret]

On the other hand, though, it seems fishy that a school would admit students and then have what sounds like a grade cut off it uses to kick students out. Since grades in law school are on a curve, does this mean their kicking students out is a routine practice for some part of a class every first year? If so, were they upfront with this when he was applying? Was it a readily perceivable practice?

This is a well-documented practice at almost every bad law school in the nation. ABA 509 forms have a specific field to show 1L attrition rates, so the information is available.

It used to be done more often, back in the days when Harvard gave out failing grades. But for reasons which vary based on how cynical your reading of the situation is, most legitimate law schools only lose students due to grades in extreme cases.

Part of the reason as discussed above is that the school will lose accreditation if they don't have enough students pass the bar.
Agree that this is very common and well known practice.
I'm not sure why LTM hasn't heard of it as it is common.

[CHFuller]

I generally agree with prior posters that your son should reevaluate whether law school is right for him at least for right now, because, and with all due respect, if he's having such trouble now at a lower ranked school he's likely going to have trouble with the bar exam, landing a job, etc. On the other hand, though, it seems fishy that a school would admit students and then have what sounds like a grade cut off it uses to kick students out. Since grades in law school are on a curve, does this mean their kicking students out is a routine practice for some part of a class every first year? If so, were they upfront with this when he was applying? Was it a readily perceivable practice? I'm not giving you legal advice or trying to because I don't know much about educational law but just generally I'm wondering how it could be legal for a school to entice and accept students into its class--students who it can probably tell won't do well on the bar given their correlative lsat/gpa during admissions--take their money during 1L year, and then kick them out in the cold to maintain their bar rates and other similar factors it probably uses to entice and admit the next batch of students it plans to kick out, especially if this practice wasn't readily understood by applicants.

We weren't aware of the GPA cut-off until my kid started his first week of classes there, when they had someone from academics come in and into'd themself. That was how we became aware they require students to have a 2.2 there or face possibly being dismissed...I'm not sure, but my son said his school had a cut-off number for years.

My wife is a lawyer and a coworker of hers were in the same position my kid is currently in (poor grades, faced dismissal). But her coworker successfully appealed via admitting his mistakes and ended up getting good grades in 2L, graduated and passed the bar, too. So my wife said if someone in my kid's position can do that, she's sure my kid can do it as well (and I do believe that...a good shock can be persuasive).

Son did well in writing classes in the spring, has a high B in them. But did poorly in Criminal Law and Criminal Procedure, those two pulled his grades down to his 2.09. So we're thinking he just need to get better at remembering all his law materials, since he did well writing essays in class.

[cavalier1138]

We weren't aware of the GPA cut-off until my kid started his first week of classes there, when they had someone from academics come in and into'd themself. That was how we became aware they require students to have a 2.2 there or face possibly being dismissed...I'm not sure, but my son said his school had a cut-off number for years.

My wife is a lawyer and a coworker of hers were in the same position my kid is currently in (poor grades, faced dismissal). But her coworker successfully appealed via admitting his mistakes and ended up getting good grades in 2L, graduated and passed the bar, too. So my wife said if someone in my kid's position can do that, she's sure my kid can do it as well (and I do believe that...a good shock can be persuasive).

Well, good luck with the appeal. But it's a little distressing that you're glossing over the posts on this forum pointing out that your son's prospective career isn't that bright, even if he's allowed to stay enrolled. If your wife is just going to hire him the moment he passes the bar (assuming he passes), then that's great. But if that isn't the plan, I'd see the academic dismissal as a blessing in disguise and give your son the chance to mature a bit and learn how to live life (or seek answers on online forums) on his own.

[Npret]

I generally agree with prior posters that your son should reevaluate whether law school is right for him at least for right now, because, and with all due respect, if he's having such trouble now at a lower ranked school he's likely going to have trouble with the bar exam, landing a job, etc. On the other hand, though, it seems fishy that a school would admit students and then have what sounds like a grade cut off it uses to kick students out. Since grades in law school are on a curve, does this mean their kicking students out is a routine practice for some part of a class every first year? If so, were they upfront with this when he was applying? Was it a readily perceivable practice? I'm not giving you legal advice or trying to because I don't know much about educational law but just generally I'm wondering how it could be legal for a school to entice and accept students into its class--students who it can probably tell won't do well on the bar given their correlative lsat/gpa during admissions--take their money during 1L year, and then kick them out in the cold to maintain their bar rates and other similar factors it probably uses to entice and admit the next batch of students it plans to kick out, especially if this practice wasn't readily understood by applicants.

We weren't aware of the GPA cut-off until my kid started his first week of classes there, when they had someone from academics come in and into'd themself. That was how we became aware they require students to have a 2.2 there or face possibly being dismissed...I'm not sure, but my son said his school had a cut-off number for years.

My wife is a lawyer and a coworker of hers were in the same position my kid is currently in (poor grades, faced dismissal). But her coworker successfully appealed via admitting his mistakes and ended up getting good grades in 2L, graduated and passed the bar, too. So my wife said if someone in my kid's position can do that, she's sure my kid can do it as well (and I do believe that...a good shock can be persuasive).

Your wife's coworker experienced this but you didn't know it was a possibility?

[Npret]

We weren't aware of the GPA cut-off until my kid started his first week of classes there, when they had someone from academics come in and into'd themself. That was how we became aware they require students to have a 2.2 there or face possibly being dismissed...I'm not sure, but my son said his school had a cut-off number for years.

My wife is a lawyer and a coworker of hers were in the same position my kid is currently in (poor grades, faced dismissal). But her coworker successfully appealed via admitting his mistakes and ended up getting good grades in 2L, graduated and passed the bar, too. So my wife said if someone in my kid's position can do that, she's sure my kid can do it as well (and I do believe that...a good shock can be persuasive).

Well, good luck with the appeal. But it's a little distressing that you're glossing over the posts on this forum pointing out that your son's prospective career isn't that bright, even if he's allowed to stay enrolled. If your wife is just going to hire him the moment he passes the bar (assuming he passes), then that's great. But if that isn't the plan, I'd see the academic dismissal as a blessing in disguise and give your son the chance to mature a bit and learn how to live life (or seek answers on online forums) on his own.

I agree with this. It's also surprising that you think memorization is the problem when law is about analysis.
Is it possible your son doesn't want to be a lawyer and you are pushing him down this path?
He already sent in an email to deal with it but you are here second guessing him and ignoring all the advice you received.