C&F Forum

[KeepingItSecret]

Someone in class was supposedly picked on. My name was brought up. I spoke with the school who said its over but that several people spoke to her in relation to the incident and said I make the class uncomfortable. I am very outspoken and say things that aren't popular, but Hess emotional children don't want their ideas challenged. A formal complaint will be made if something like this happens again. I have no control over these things. A target is on my back because I speak my mind and people complained.

To my actual question, if I am accused of hazing and a formal complaint is made, will this be seen as a serious thing by ABA? I want no trouble with them and my options may be to either shut up (not my personality) or transfer.

[runinthefront]

Someone in class was supposedly picked on. My name was brought up. I spoke with the school who said its over but that several people spoke to her in relation to the incident and said I make the class uncomfortable. I am very outspoken and say things that aren't popular, but Hess emotional children don't want their ideas challenged. A formal complaint will be made if something like this happens again. I have no control over these things. A target is on my back because I speak my mind and people complained.

To my actual question, if I am accused of hazing and a formal complaint is made, will this be seen as a serious thing by ABA? I want no trouble with them and my options may be to either shut up (not my personality) or transfer.

You'd have to disclose it to your state's bar examiners (not the ABA). Transferring wouldn't fix things either, although shutting up may.

I don't think there are any actual bar examiners lurking TLS who can answer your question, but a C&F attorney might be able to, if (or when) a formal complaint's been made and the attorney's been retained.

My uneducated guess is yeah, of course hazing/harassment will be taken seriously. You should probably cease the behavior.

[IExistedOnceBefore]

What you've described isn't hazing. Take if from someone who was in greek life with actual hazing. What you've described sounds like you're making statements in classes that can be percieved as derogatory, threatening, or abusive. You're nearing towards harassment.

I will be really impressed if your school puts you through a formal discipline process for that, if they do it must mean the incident is more extreme than you're describing.

Could it be a C&F issue? Maybe. It all depends on what the circumstances are, if it's put through the discipline process, and if you take some years off undergrad.

There is a way to express your opinion and ideas that conflict with others in a way that isn't seen as picking on someone and singling people out. Learn it.

[HonestAdvice]

You have to mention it regardless. The fact it's investigated thoroughly is probably to your benefit. Hazing sounds like a serious charge on paper, but if they find out all you did was say something unpopular, they may not even ask you about it.

It's also subjective and your reviewer will ultimately apply their personal sentiments onto your situation even if they try not to. Anything potentially racist, sexist, etc. is particularly dumb for a potential lawyer because you may offend the reviewer, or equally likely, the reviewer will treat it more seriously because they feel like they should be more offended.

@IExisted: College charges and legal charges aren't the same. The Hazing rule is probably over inclusive.

[IExistedOnceBefore]

You have to mention it regardless. The fact it's investigated thoroughly is probably to your benefit. Hazing sounds like a serious charge on paper, but if they find out all you did was say something unpopular, they may not even ask you about it.

It's also subjective and your reviewer will ultimately apply their personal sentiments onto your situation even if they try not to. Anything potentially racist, sexist, etc. is particularly dumb for a potential lawyer because you may offend the reviewer, or equally likely, the reviewer will treat it more seriously because they feel like they should be more offended.

@IExisted: College charges and legal charges aren't the same. The Hazing rule is probably over inclusive.

Yeah I was risk management over all of greek life for two years when I was an undergrad. I'm unfortunately very familiar with hazing in the collegiate sense. I'd be curious where the school would apply a hazing charge to a class. I'm not saying your wrong, just curious. Often it's applied to groups, sports teams, organizations, greek life, but I'm curious as to how OP got a hazing charge for a class. An integral part of defining hazing in most hazing rules is that it's part of an initiation and you shouldn't make your initiates do something they're uncomfortable and feel pressured to do. You don't have to be initiated into a class. It makes me feel like OP is obviously editing out his story because if a school pulled in hazing on him he gone fucked up.

[Barrred]

If your comments that people find offensive have ANYTHING to do with race/religion/sex/sexual orientation/any "minority" group, you should really choose the "shut up" option, because in today's climate people are getting railroaded over this type of thing with zero due process left, right, and center (okay, not so much left, mostly right and center).

[TakeItToTrial]

As long as you aren't singling out an individual, expressing an unpopular opinion shouldn't be cause for a reprimand. People get uncomfortable when their ideas/beliefs are challenged. Just make sure you're expressing your opinions in a respectful manner and staying within the parameters of the class discussion.

[HonestAdvice]

You have to mention it regardless. The fact it's investigated thoroughly is probably to your benefit. Hazing sounds like a serious charge on paper, but if they find out all you did was say something unpopular, they may not even ask you about it.

It's also subjective and your reviewer will ultimately apply their personal sentiments onto your situation even if they try not to. Anything potentially racist, sexist, etc. is particularly dumb for a potential lawyer because you may offend the reviewer, or equally likely, the reviewer will treat it more seriously because they feel like they should be more offended.

@IExisted: College charges and legal charges aren't the same. The Hazing rule is probably over inclusive.

Yeah I was risk management over all of greek life for two years when I was an undergrad. I'm unfortunately very familiar with hazing in the collegiate sense. I'd be curious where the school would apply a hazing charge to a class. I'm not saying your wrong, just curious. Often it's applied to groups, sports teams, organizations, greek life, but I'm curious as to how OP got a hazing charge for a class. An integral part of defining hazing in most hazing rules is that it's part of an initiation and you shouldn't make your initiates do something they're uncomfortable and feel pressured to do. You don't have to be initiated into a class. It makes me feel like OP is obviously editing out his story because if a school pulled in hazing on him he gone fucked up.

Colleges are businesses, and the hazing rules come up only after market forces make them come up so people normally get f'd.

People rip on the US justice system all the time, but there's an effort to approach each case individually. Whatever the George Zimmerman version of hazing is, if that was a university case, Zimmerman is expelled no questions asked. 9 times out 10, there's not even a need for a hearing.

I wouldn't be surprised if blurting out "you're a retard" falls under a modern hazing sanction. The problem is probably that they didn't want to use fraternity because you could have groups that operate like a fraternity (sport team, student paper, hillel) in a social sense but are not a fraternity on paper.

[A. Nony Mouse]

You didn't read anything the above person said about hazing. Hazing as a charge here doesn't make any sense. I suspect it's a label the OP picked out of thin air for a different complaint.

Also, OP, without getting to the validity of complaints, you have a few choices - be quiet and avoid any kind of charges; learn how to speak up in a way that doesn't inspire your classmates to bring charges against you; speak up as you have been and deal with the consequences; or transfer. If you incur charges you will have to raise them during the law school process and yes, they could raise red flags. Up to you to decide whether you want to deal with that or not.

[rcharter1978]

OP -- If you can't express your point of view without offending multiple people, the problem isn't them, the problem is you. Stop pretending to be a victim, you know how to say things respectfully, you simply choose not to. But I also suspect OP is trolling.

[Nebby]

Someone in class was supposedly picked on. My name was brought up. I spoke with the school who said its over but that several people spoke to her in relation to the incident and said I make the class uncomfortable. I am very outspoken and say things that aren't popular, but Hess emotional children don't want their ideas challenged. A formal complaint will be made if something like this happens again. I have no control over these things. A target is on my back because I speak my mind and people complained.

To my actual question, if I am accused of hazing and a formal complaint is made, will this be seen as a serious thing by ABA? I want no trouble with them and my options may be to either shut up (not my personality) or transfer.

Describe the situation. We need more info to be able to give you an opinion. This is a pretty fact intensive situation.

[Npret]

Someone in class was supposedly picked on. My name was brought up. I spoke with the school who said its over but that several people spoke to her in relation to the incident and said I make the class uncomfortable. I am very outspoken and say things that aren't popular, but Hess emotional children don't want their ideas challenged. A formal complaint will be made if something like this happens again. I have no control over these things. A target is on my back because I speak my mind and people complained.

To my actual question, if I am accused of hazing and a formal complaint is made, will this be seen as a serious thing by ABA? I want no trouble with them and my options may be to either shut up (not my personality) or transfer.

Lol. You sound like you've been warned that your behavior is inappropriate no matter how much it means to you to be obnoxious and ignore that your actions are unacceptable in a classroom.
Use your brain to figure out what to do next. Common sense and common courtesy should guide if you have those in your personality.

[GucciManeEsq]

Someone in class was supposedly picked on. My name was brought up. I spoke with the school who said its over but that several people spoke to her in relation to the incident and said I make the class uncomfortable. I am very outspoken and say things that aren't popular, but Hess emotional children don't want their ideas challenged. A formal complaint will be made if something like this happens again. I have no control over these things. A target is on my back because I speak my mind and people complained.

To my actual question, if I am accused of hazing and a formal complaint is made, will this be seen as a serious thing by ABA? I want no trouble with them and my options may be to either shut up (not my personality) or transfer.

You sound like a dick, so you're already halfway to being a lawyer.

[ndbigdave]

Someone in class was supposedly picked on. My name was brought up. I spoke with the school who said its over but that several people spoke to her in relation to the incident and said I make the class uncomfortable. I am very outspoken and say things that aren't popular, but Hess emotional children don't want their ideas challenged. A formal complaint will be made if something like this happens again. I have no control over these things. A target is on my back because I speak my mind and people complained.

To my actual question, if I am accused of hazing and a formal complaint is made, will this be seen as a serious thing by ABA? I want no trouble with them and my options may be to either shut up (not my personality) or transfer.

I am going to reiterate what other posters have already said - we need more info.

If I take what you say at face value: you make comments that are not in line with the general class opinions, likely in an aggressive or condescending manner which has lead to complaints that you make certain members uncomfortable or "singled out" then I do agree the options are likely to change your behavior or transfer (even though if all you are doing is sharing an unpopular opinion it is a sad statement of our current higher education system that differing opinions are not celebrated but instead shouted down or threatened with administrative action). I don't understand where "hazing" comes into the picture, are you sure that is the potential charge you will face?

Would this be an issue for your state's bar character and fitness? Yes. Should you face disciplinary hearings or an actual disciplinary sanction you will need to disclose and then explain the circumstances of the event(s). Without knowing just what is being said its tough to say just how serious your situation is - my first blush is that this isn't a HUGE deal, you'll have to explain yourself but it isnt like an actual criminal charge, appears unrelated to alcohol or drugs and should you have no other red flags will be something a few years in your past so it should not block your passing C&F (albeit with extra paperwork for you to complete and perhaps a meeting with your C&F board - in the worst case scenario).

If you feel comfortable please share more so that proper advice can be given.

[KeepingItSecret]

Someone in class was supposedly picked on. My name was brought up. I spoke with the school who said its over but that several people spoke to her in relation to the incident and said I make the class uncomfortable. I am very outspoken and say things that aren't popular, but Hess emotional children don't want their ideas challenged. A formal complaint will be made if something like this happens again. I have no control over these things. A target is on my back because I speak my mind and people complained.

To my actual question, if I am accused of hazing and a formal complaint is made, will this be seen as a serious thing by ABA? I want no trouble with them and my options may be to either shut up (not my personality) or transfer.

I am going to reiterate what other posters have already said - we need more info.

If I take what you say at face value: you make comments that are not in line with the general class opinions, likely in an aggressive or condescending manner which has lead to complaints that you make certain members uncomfortable or "singled out" then I do agree the options are likely to change your behavior or transfer (even though if all you are doing is sharing an unpopular opinion it is a sad statement of our current higher education system that differing opinions are not celebrated but instead shouted down or threatened with administrative action). I don't understand where "hazing" comes into the picture, are you sure that is the potential charge you will face?

Would this be an issue for your state's bar character and fitness? Yes. Should you face disciplinary hearings or an actual disciplinary sanction you will need to disclose and then explain the circumstances of the event(s). Without knowing just what is being said its tough to say just how serious your situation is - my first blush is that this isn't a HUGE deal, you'll have to explain yourself but it isnt like an actual criminal charge, appears unrelated to alcohol or drugs and should you have no other red flags will be something a few years in your past so it should not block your passing C&F (albeit with extra paperwork for you to complete and perhaps a meeting with your C&F board - in the worst case scenario).

If you feel comfortable please share more so that proper advice can be given.

Before fully addressing nbbigdave, if like to say that nothing in my OP should suggest I'm being a "dick". I hold opinions that can be seen as "wrong think." All of my arguments are wel reasoned and backed up. In fact, one person in class who has railed against me and my opinions is a true dick. She yells and screams and says outlandish things. Because my opinions are colored by my politics and in today's climate, that isn't the best thing I get singled out as being crazy.

That all being said, my politics made me somewhat unpopular with a minority of the class. Something was said to have been done to another student. The person they singled out as the culprit was me. The student didn't report anything, others in the class reported it based on rumors. Why? My contention is that I'm the unpopular "dick" and so it had to be me. No complaint was filed, but if the student were to come forward and make a complaint themselves a formal complaint will be file d

[Npret]

Someone in class was supposedly picked on. My name was brought up. I spoke with the school who said its over but that several people spoke to her in relation to the incident and said I make the class uncomfortable. I am very outspoken and say things that aren't popular, but Hess emotional children don't want their ideas challenged. A formal complaint will be made if something like this happens again. I have no control over these things. A target is on my back because I speak my mind and people complained.

To my actual question, if I am accused of hazing and a formal complaint is made, will this be seen as a serious thing by ABA? I want no trouble with them and my options may be to either shut up (not my personality) or transfer.

I am going to reiterate what other posters have already said - we need more info.

If I take what you say at face value: you make comments that are not in line with the general class opinions, likely in an aggressive or condescending manner which has lead to complaints that you make certain members uncomfortable or "singled out" then I do agree the options are likely to change your behavior or transfer (even though if all you are doing is sharing an unpopular opinion it is a sad statement of our current higher education system that differing opinions are not celebrated but instead shouted down or threatened with administrative action). I don't understand where "hazing" comes into the picture, are you sure that is the potential charge you will face?

Would this be an issue for your state's bar character and fitness? Yes. Should you face disciplinary hearings or an actual disciplinary sanction you will need to disclose and then explain the circumstances of the event(s). Without knowing just what is being said its tough to say just how serious your situation is - my first blush is that this isn't a HUGE deal, you'll have to explain yourself but it isnt like an actual criminal charge, appears unrelated to alcohol or drugs and should you have no other red flags will be something a few years in your past so it should not block your passing C&F (albeit with extra paperwork for you to complete and perhaps a meeting with your C&F board - in the worst case scenario).

If you feel comfortable please share more so that proper advice can be given.

Before fully addressing nbbigdave, if like to say that nothing in my OP should suggest I'm being a "dick". I hold opinions that can be seen as "wrong think." All of my arguments are wel reasoned and backed up. In fact, one person in class who has railed against me and my opinions is a true dick. She yells and screams and says outlandish things. Because my opinions are colored by my politics and in today's climate, that isn't the best thing I get singled out as being crazy.

That all being said, my politics made me somewhat unpopular with a minority of the class. Something was said to have been done to another student. The person they singled out as the culprit was me. The student didn't report anything, others in the class reported it based on rumors. Why? My contention is that I'm the unpopular "dick" and so it had to be me. No complaint was filed, but if the student were to come forward and make a complaint themselves a formal complaint will be file d

Yes I'm sure you're not a problem in the class its the other people who don't agree with you. /sarcasm That's why you were warned.
To put it simply: yes you could have a problem if you continue down this road. You can say it's because if your opinions instead of your behavior, maybe you're right and maybe you lack all self-awareness. I don't care what is true here, but I think you should take the warning seriously.

[dredd16]

I am very outspoken and say things that aren't popular, but Hess emotional children don't want their ideas challenged. A formal complaint will be made if something like this happens again. I have no control over these things. A target is on my back because I speak my mind and people complained.

To my actual question, if I am accused of hazing and a formal complaint is made, will this be seen as a serious thing by ABA? I want no trouble with them and my options may be to either shut up (not my personality) or transfer.

I think it's a given that if a formal complaint is made, you must disclose to the state bar when you are applying for admission because it's probably a given that the school will report the complaint to the bar when C&F is evaluated. (ABA doesn't care and is not your concern).

Regardless of whether you were right or wrong, rude, insensitive, or whatever, just learn to shut the **** up and keep your head down even if it's not your personality. It's going to eventually have to be something you'll do if you want to be successful in life generally speaking when starting your career. Your brass personality seems like it might not fare well in an office politics setting and if the person you end up offending is your boss or a partner, you're going to be expendable.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Doesn't everyone really think their own opinions are well-reasoned and backed up?

[zhenders]

What is even going on in this thread? Giving someone the benefit of the doubt is one thing, but OP is coming across as shady as hell.

People don't file complaints against other people for speaking opinions in law school classrooms. Based upon the totally bizarro-world way you just pulled a "I'M not a dick, SHE'S a dick" 6th grade bullshit, and the fact that you've provided literally zero facts (even facts skewed in your FAVOR; just no facts at ALL), I think the only reasonable thing to conclude is that you're probably a bad person, you've gotten called out on being legitimately frightening to some of your classmates, and you have the kind of personality that makes you break every honest mirror any well-meaning person has ever stuck in front of your face.

Figure your shit out, OP; if you're convinced that you're perfect and in the right, then get used to the world disagreeing with you, and possibly socially sanctioning you for it.

[stego]

Something was said to have been done to another student. The person they singled out as the culprit was me. The student didn't report anything, others reported if based on rumors.

It sounds like if you were to be charged it would would be for this. So you're talking about something that happened outside of class? I'm not sure if anyone can provide you good advice without knowing more about what you allegedly did.

[ndbigdave]

Someone in class was supposedly picked on. My name was brought up. I spoke with the school who said its over but that several people spoke to her in relation to the incident and said I make the class uncomfortable. I am very outspoken and say things that aren't popular, but Hess emotional children don't want their ideas challenged. A formal complaint will be made if something like this happens again. I have no control over these things. A target is on my back because I speak my mind and people complained.

To my actual question, if I am accused of hazing and a formal complaint is made, will this be seen as a serious thing by ABA? I want no trouble with them and my options may be to either shut up (not my personality) or transfer.

I am going to reiterate what other posters have already said - we need more info.

If I take what you say at face value: you make comments that are not in line with the general class opinions, likely in an aggressive or condescending manner which has lead to complaints that you make certain members uncomfortable or "singled out" then I do agree the options are likely to change your behavior or transfer (even though if all you are doing is sharing an unpopular opinion it is a sad statement of our current higher education system that differing opinions are not celebrated but instead shouted down or threatened with administrative action). I don't understand where "hazing" comes into the picture, are you sure that is the potential charge you will face?

Would this be an issue for your state's bar character and fitness? Yes. Should you face disciplinary hearings or an actual disciplinary sanction you will need to disclose and then explain the circumstances of the event(s). Without knowing just what is being said its tough to say just how serious your situation is - my first blush is that this isn't a HUGE deal, you'll have to explain yourself but it isnt like an actual criminal charge, appears unrelated to alcohol or drugs and should you have no other red flags will be something a few years in your past so it should not block your passing C&F (albeit with extra paperwork for you to complete and perhaps a meeting with your C&F board - in the worst case scenario).

If you feel comfortable please share more so that proper advice can be given.

Before fully addressing nbbigdave, if like to say that nothing in my OP should suggest I'm being a "dick". I hold opinions that can be seen as "wrong think." All of my arguments are wel reasoned and backed up. In fact, one person in class who has railed against me and my opinions is a true dick. She yells and screams and says outlandish things. Because my opinions are colored by my politics and in today's climate, that isn't the best thing I get singled out as being crazy.

That all being said, my politics made me somewhat unpopular with a minority of the class. Something was said to have been done to another student. The person they singled out as the culprit was me. The student didn't report anything, others in the class reported it based on rumors. Why? My contention is that I'm the unpopular "dick" and so it had to be me. No complaint was filed, but if the student were to come forward and make a complaint themselves a formal complaint will be file d

Thanks for responding and shedding a bit more light (though admittedly, Id love to know what exactly it is you are arguing and what it is that you said that ultimately brought you before the administration and how your comments related to "picking on" a fellow student).

Reading between the lines, my "guess" is that you are perhaps conservative and you are arguing about one of a thousand different issues, gun control, abortion, sexual orientation/identification, criminal justice reform, race - to name just a few. I have a hunch you are strongly opinionated and thus someone who falls into a group (protected or otherwise) feels "picked on" or called out because of your difference of opinion and perhaps the word choice associated with articulating the opinion. Again, I need specifics - if you are articulating a point/opinion to the class and not directly calling anyone out then this is just further evidence of the decline of higher education, if you are calling people out then it gets a bit touchier as there are so many rules and codes of conduct that you are likely to have run afoul of a few. It really comes down to your situation.

End game, seeing as you have yet to be formally reprimanded/suspended/punished Id assume this is a small matter - worst case (as I previously stated) you stand your ground and opinions, face the punishment and then have to disclose to the bar the nature of the punishment and your explanation. Would I suspect this would keep you from getting your license? No. It just may add an extra headache to the process and add some supplementation requests from your processor.

[Nebby]

This is so TTT

[lawhopeful100]

What is even going on in this thread? Giving someone the benefit of the doubt is one thing, but OP is coming across as shady as hell.

People don't file complaints against other people for speaking opinions in law school classrooms. Based upon the totally bizarro-world way you just pulled a "I'M not a dick, SHE'S a dick" 6th grade bullshit, and the fact that you've provided literally zero facts (even facts skewed in your FAVOR; just no facts at ALL), I think the only reasonable thing to conclude is that you're probably a bad person, you've gotten called out on being legitimately frightening to some of your classmates, and you have the kind of personality that makes you break every honest mirror any well-meaning person has ever stuck in front of your face.

Figure your shit out, OP; if you're convinced that you're perfect and in the right, then get used to the world disagreeing with you, and possibly socially sanctioning you for it.

This

[Npret]

What is even going on in this thread? Giving someone the benefit of the doubt is one thing, but OP is coming across as shady as hell.

People don't file complaints against other people for speaking opinions in law school classrooms. Based upon the totally bizarro-world way you just pulled a "I'M not a dick, SHE'S a dick" 6th grade bullshit, and the fact that you've provided literally zero facts (even facts skewed in your FAVOR; just no facts at ALL), I think the only reasonable thing to conclude is that you're probably a bad person, you've gotten called out on being legitimately frightening to some of your classmates, and you have the kind of personality that makes you break every honest mirror any well-meaning person has ever stuck in front of your face.

Figure your shit out, OP; if you're convinced that you're perfect and in the right, then get used to the world disagreeing with you, and possibly socially sanctioning you for it.

This

I thought OP was an undergrad. Misunderstood the post i guess. Can't imagine being in class/ having to deal with with this guy.
Odds OP will face formal discipline? 85% because OP won't change.

Maybe someone from OPs school will post an explanation.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I assumed OP was talking about UG too.

Either way there's no reason this should be in the bar prep forum so I'm moving it.