JD/PhD ----- public interest options Forum

[grades??]

Listen man I could go into very fine detail but others have already here. You are in no place to get a phd. You don't need one and frankly you sound like exactly the person that wont complete a phd. Also, I don't think you understand how hard it is to get into a phd program of any repetitional value at all. On top of that, I do not know of many law schools that will have a reputable criminology phd and jd programs at the same school. Upshot- a phd is a waste of time. Get a phd if you want to be an academic AND ONLY if you want to be an academic. Otherwise it will hurt you in a job search because everyone assumes you are a flight risk. But that is all secondary to getting into a phd program and jd at the same school and the school allowing both. Go ahead and apply your heart out but don't be surprised if you didn't have a single phd offer let alone from a program that will give you a strong jd as well.

if you are looking for a good phd forum- may I suggest go and look at gradcafe.com and see just how hard it is to get into the phd you want. It also has a great search tool just like myLSN.com

Edit: I found a list of criminology PHD programs in the US (this list is from gradcafe forum for criminology and is supposedly comprehensive, but take it at face value)

There is LITERALLY 1 school on this list that is a t14 law school and a phd criminology program- UPenn. There are like two other schools that are in the t1 that MIGHT be worth going to for free if you wanted to practice in Florida (UF) and Cali (Irvine). Otherwise the vast majority of these schools either don't have a JD or a JD would be worthless and not get you a PD job.

Arizona State University
University of Arkansas at Little Rock
University of California - Irvine
University of Delaware
Florida State University
Univeristy of Central Florida
Univeristy of Florida
University of South Florida
University of Illinois at Chicago
Indiana University at Bloomington
University of Louisville
University of Maryland
Northeastern University
Michigan State University
University of Southern Mississippi
University of Missouri at St. Louis
University of Nebraska at Omaha
Rutgers University - Newark Campus
John Jay College of Criminal Justice
University at Albany, SUNY
North Dakota State University
University of Cincinnati
Indiana University at Pennsylvania
Pennsylvania State University - University Park
Temple University
University of Pennsylvania
University of South Carolina
Prairie View A&M University
Sam Houston State University
Texas State University San Marcos
University of Texas at Dallas
George Mason University
Old Dominion University
Washington State University
American University

[Nebby]

James. If you want to affect criminal justice reform, you need a JD and join a legal organization that pursues that goal. You do not need a PhD. It will not help you at all. It will be a giant waste of your time. It'll take 4 years out of your life that could be used to affect change.

I mean you really feel a PhD is that bad? Lol. I would be doing research and hopefully publish papers that can at the very least help advocate for arguments or be built off by other scholars in the future to help push a legal theory that promotes some change/awareness of how our system works, resulting in improvement. Off the strength of that it can't be a waste lol. I agree it's probably not as useful as litigating straight up. But I feel I have added flexibility if I decide to leave litigating or change roles to more of a consultant for that legal organization you mentioned.

A PhD is solely for the purpose of being a professor. You don't want to be one, so it's a waste. Professors in law barely make a dent in legal reform movements. The real work takes place on the ground, not the Ivory Tower

[BoobGoddess]

It's gonna take you like 5 years to finish your PhD, and that's on top of the 3 it takes to get your JD. I don't know how old you are, but that's like 8 years if you''re lucky and everything goes smoothly. But it doesn't always work like that. My roommate is a PhD and he's in his like 6th year, still not done his PhD. His advisor makes him meet at 2 or 3 AM to go over his thesis. He barely gets any sleep.

Oh by the way, when he starts out, he's going to have to go through the fellowship route, which makes very little money (like 30K) or start at the bottom as an adjunct. For many people this means having absolutely ZERO savings in your retirement and starting at a dinky $30K salary at the ripe old age of 30. Basically, you will never retire (especially if you took out student loans to get your JD/PHD). And this is if you're lucky enough to get a fellowship. A lot of people go through all this and still can't get a job due to oversupply of PhDs in general.

[AntsInMyEyesJohnson]

It's probably worthwhile to not respond to his comments and just let a few days go by, since by then James will likely have something else that's on his mind. None of these topics that he posts about seem to stay at the forefront of his attention for very long.

[MyNameIsntJames]

Listen man I could go into very fine detail but others have already here. You are in no place to get a phd. You don't need one and frankly you sound like exactly the person that wont complete a phd. Also, I don't think you understand how hard it is to get into a phd program of any repetitional value at all. On top of that, I do not know of many law schools that will have a reputable criminology phd and jd programs at the same school. Upshot- a phd is a waste of time. Get a phd if you want to be an academic AND ONLY if you want to be an academic. Otherwise it will hurt you in a job search because everyone assumes you are a flight risk. But that is all secondary to getting into a phd program and jd at the same school and the school allowing both. Go ahead and apply your heart out but don't be surprised if you didn't have a single phd offer let alone from a program that will give you a strong jd as well.

if you are looking for a good phd forum- may I suggest go and look at gradcafe.com and see just how hard it is to get into the phd you want. It also has a great search tool just like myLSN.com

Edit: I found a list of criminology PHD programs in the US (this list is from gradcafe forum for criminology and is supposedly comprehensive, but take it at face value)

There is LITERALLY 1 school on this list that is a t14 law school and a phd criminology program- UPenn. There are like two other schools that are in the t1 that MIGHT be worth going to for free if you wanted to practice in Florida (UF) and Cali (Irvine). Otherwise the vast majority of these schools either don't have a JD or a JD would be worthless and not get you a PD job.

Arizona State University
University of Arkansas at Little Rock
University of California - Irvine
University of Delaware
Florida State University
Univeristy of Central Florida
Univeristy of Florida
University of South Florida
University of Illinois at Chicago
Indiana University at Bloomington
University of Louisville
University of Maryland
Northeastern University
Michigan State University
University of Southern Mississippi
University of Missouri at St. Louis
University of Nebraska at Omaha
Rutgers University - Newark Campus
John Jay College of Criminal Justice
University at Albany, SUNY
North Dakota State University
University of Cincinnati
Indiana University at Pennsylvania
Pennsylvania State University - University Park
Temple University
University of Pennsylvania
University of South Carolina
Prairie View A&M University
Sam Houston State University
Texas State University San Marcos
University of Texas at Dallas
George Mason University
Old Dominion University
Washington State University
American University

Thank you for this response. I guess in that case I'll nix this dream of going for a PhD. Not so much for the competitive difficulty, but it seems to be a strong consensus that there is 0 utility in the degree for someone that does not wish to immediately pursue academia.

[MyNameIsntJames]

It's probably worthwhile to not respond to his comments and just let a few days go by, since by then James will likely have something else that's on his mind. None of these topics that he posts about seem to stay at the forefront of his attention for very long.

I'm a 0L that's exploring every single option and the pros & cons of each ... I'd rather ask about a million different things and get a thorough scoop on each from informed people/research rather than blindly follow one path and end up failing miserably. These forums & other resources have helped me to substantially narrow down exactly what I want to do with law, how the field works & what I can realistically expect.

[MyNameIsntJames]

It's gonna take you like 5 years to finish your PhD, and that's on top of the 3 it takes to get your JD. I don't know how old you are, but that's like 8 years if you''re lucky and everything goes smoothly. But it doesn't always work like that. My roommate is a PhD and he's in his like 6th year, still not done his PhD. His advisor makes him meet at 2 or 3 AM to go over his thesis. He barely gets any sleep.

Oh by the way, when he starts out, he's going to have to go through the fellowship route, which makes very little money (like 30K) or start at the bottom as an adjunct. For many people this means having absolutely ZERO savings in your retirement and starting at a dinky $30K salary at the ripe old age of 30. Basically, you will never retire (especially if you took out student loans to get your JD/PHD). And this is if you're lucky enough to get a fellowship. A lot of people go through all this and still can't get a job due to oversupply of PhDs in general.

I see what you're saying. I should've stated this more clearly in the OP, but this was under the assumption that i got into a dual JD PhD program that was fully funded or at the very least 0 tuition.

However, it seems that's an extraordinarily rare and competitive program at the very limited amount of schools that offer it and my credentials aren't super strong, so I'll probably nix this idea. Thanks for the feedback & info, I read all of it.

[MyNameIsntJames]

James. If you want to affect criminal justice reform, you need a JD and join a legal organization that pursues that goal. You do not need a PhD. It will not help you at all. It will be a giant waste of your time. It'll take 4 years out of your life that could be used to affect change.

I mean you really feel a PhD is that bad? Lol. I would be doing research and hopefully publish papers that can at the very least help advocate for arguments or be built off by other scholars in the future to help push a legal theory that promotes some change/awareness of how our system works, resulting in improvement. Off the strength of that it can't be a waste lol. I agree it's probably not as useful as litigating straight up. But I feel I have added flexibility if I decide to leave litigating or change roles to more of a consultant for that legal organization you mentioned.

A PhD is solely for the purpose of being a professor. You don't want to be one, so it's a waste. Professors in law barely make a dent in legal reform movements. The real work takes place on the ground, not the Ivory Tower

I was hoping to keep it on tap for being a professor in the future, but get it out the way ASAP. But the more I research, look through TLS & follow this thread it appears the overwhelming consensus is you're absolutely correct so I'll probably abandon this idea. On the off chance I get into a program that funds+stipends the entire dual degree then I'll bring it back up. I'll apply to NWestern's JD PHD dual for shits & giggles & see what happens. Otherwise, I won't even consider it or apply to any other PhD programs.

[Nebby]

James. If you want to affect criminal justice reform, you need a JD and join a legal organization that pursues that goal. You do not need a PhD. It will not help you at all. It will be a giant waste of your time. It'll take 4 years out of your life that could be used to affect change.

I mean you really feel a PhD is that bad? Lol. I would be doing research and hopefully publish papers that can at the very least help advocate for arguments or be built off by other scholars in the future to help push a legal theory that promotes some change/awareness of how our system works, resulting in improvement. Off the strength of that it can't be a waste lol. I agree it's probably not as useful as litigating straight up. But I feel I have added flexibility if I decide to leave litigating or change roles to more of a consultant for that legal organization you mentioned.

A PhD is solely for the purpose of being a professor. You don't want to be one, so it's a waste. Professors in law barely make a dent in legal reform movements. The real work takes place on the ground, not the Ivory Tower

I was hoping to keep it on tap for being a professor in the future, but get it out the way ASAP. But the more I research, look through TLS & follow this thread it appears the overwhelming consensus is you're absolutely correct so I'll probably abandon this idea. On the off chance I get into a program that funds+stipends the entire dual degree then I'll bring it back up. I'll apply to NWestern's JD PHD dual for shits & giggles & see what happens. Otherwise, I won't even consider it or apply to any other PhD programs.

Plus, if you want to be a law professor, hardly any have PhDs. All of the professors at my school were just JDs with stellar work experience

[fauxpsych]

Full disclosure I have a grad school background in the relevant fields, but jettisoned the idea of pursuing a PhD for many of the reasons outlined in this thread.

In addition to what others have said, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding on how the PhD application process works. These programs are really competitive, think like 4-10 spots a year.

You don't really apply to schools as much as you do to advisors at those schools. You have to sell your specific research focus to that program and align it with a professor there that will take you as their advisor. "Criminal Justice Issues" is not specific enough.

They are looking for continuations of research projects you've started in UG or MA programs that are similar enough for the advisor to meaningfully advise you. For example, a project a classmate worked on for their PhD was an ethnography of Latino/Hispanic motor cycle clubs in NYC. Another analyzed an huge existing multi-generational data set to explore the effects of young motherhood on criminal offending within the family's life course and potential generational effects. Another classmate worked on gender issues for death penalty consideration. Each went to three different programs to find an advisor to take them on. This is the type of narrow focus that is required to be accepted in a PhD program. Your PhD entitles credentials you on your specific issue, not of criminal justice in general.

These are just at odds with the goal of litigating and the chances you will encounter a case within your PDs office that touches upon your dissertation issue is laughably non-existent.

As a PD, your fundamental concern is towards your actual client, not towards Criminal Justice reform. You want your expert witnesses with PhD's/JDs, not your attorney.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Plus, if you want to be a law professor, hardly any have PhDs. All of the professors at my school were just JDs with stellar work experience

This is actually wrong - it is becoming more and more common for law profs to combine a PhD with a JD. It's just that it's done very differently from the path that you (OP) envision.

So I figure -- Ok let me bang this out now, litigate for a few years (was hoping PD but it appears that's null) then seamlessly transition to academia/research in the field and perhaps make an even stronger contribution given that I'd have 10-15 years at least of hands on experience to inspire research questions and network sources/info.

If you litigate for 10-15 years, you will (for the most part) be considered too much of a practitioner to get an academic job anyway. Academia doesn't really value practicing any more than a PD's office values the PhD - at least, not more than a few years.

PhDs are for people who can't do anything else

In any case, all respectable PhD programs should pay you to attend. But the costs come in opportunity costs/lost income/ getting a job at the end of the process.

[Nebby]

That comment was solely for you and Chup, Nony.

[YimaoL]

I absolutely understand where you are coming from. I am double majoring in poli sci and criminal justice and we are on the same page. I am thinking about getting a JD/MA first, or JD along and see if I still want to pursue a Phd.

So you too also kind of want to get a PhD right beside your JD yet still pursue litigation before going into the world of academia? If so, thank you for telling me that because it lets me know that I'm not the only one who's considered this lol.

Yup, that is what I mean by "the same page". As you said, getting a PhD in my 20s would make more sense, cuz the opportunity costs would be lower. Also, it will be hard for someone to get back to school years later, at least for me. (cuz one would have to get used to a life as a student again and phd is not an easy degree to get. Does that make any sense?)

I am glad that you asked the question, I would love to hear about what ppl think. I am more looking into a phd in poli sci or law, cuz, as someone else mentioned Cj is a relatively young field and only a few schools offer PhD programs in CJ. But, I think a lot of law schools offer CJ as an optional direction you can choose, you may want to check on that.

Also, go talk to your profs, advisors, or someone in the fields. They may have a better inside perspective.

Do you consider a JD/MA? I think that will be a good start before pursuing a phd. Let me know what you think.

[Anca]

Hi, I am looking for some advice about the JD/PHD (Political Science/International Relations) combo program specific for my career goals. I want to ultimately work on strategy, conflict resolution and external affairs with the State Department and/or the UN. I am looking at these combo programs because:
-I am passionate about the rule of law and justice issues
-to get research experience in politics and work on my own models and theories.
-to be able to use my skills on the market while finishing my studies
-to not go into debt.

I am curious if this choice would hinder or aid with landing a great job (law firms/ corp legal departments)and practice as an attorney. Will I be considered as a candidate with less practical skills and more of a theoretician?

I appreciate your help! Thanks!

[Nebby]

Hi, I am looking for some advice about the JD/PHD (Political Science/International Relations) combo program specific for my career goals. I want to ultimately work on strategy, conflict resolution and external affairs with the State Department and/or the UN. I am looking at these combo programs because:
-I am passionate about the rule of law and justice issues
-to get research experience in politics and work on my own models and theories.
-to be able to use my skills on the market while finishing my studies
-to not go into debt.

I am curious if this choice would hinder or aid with landing a great job (law firms/ corp legal departments)and practice as an attorney. Will I be considered as a candidate with less practical skills and more of a theoretician?

I appreciate your help! Thanks!

PhD will help you little, and will waste years of your life that could be spent building the connections and skills necessary to achieve your goal. You're better off attending a T14 with a scholarship and not doing a PhD