Are Government Jobs Harder To Get Than Big Law? Forum

[PDX4343]

I'm interested in working in some sort of LRAP-eligible government job, but I haven't been able to find much hard data on how much harder (or easier) these jobs are to find as compared to big law.

If it matters, I'll likely be attending a lower ranked T-14, and am not only interested in the "most prestigious" government jobs.

[bk1]

If you have the right grades at the right school, biglaw is relatively easy. There are dozens firms. They come to you. They hire you before you're even close to finishing law school. And they hire hundreds of people each year, primarily focusing on law students.

Compared to that, government jobs are harder. They are likely fewer in number. They hire much closer to graduation, if not after graduation. The employers are not nearly as uniform and probably cover a wider range of practice types. Few of them come to recruit on campus and many of them primarily hire experienced attorneys rather than fresh grads.

This is not to say that you might be able to get a government job with grades that would make it difficult to get a biglaw job. Assuming you try for it and are open to a wide range of positions, I am not sure whether the statistical likelihood of getting a government job is lower than getting a job in biglaw (maybe someone else can answer that). What I can almost guarantee you is that it will require a lot more work on your end to obtain that kind of position than it would to get a job in biglaw.

[cavalier1138]

My understanding (0L here, so take it with a grain of salt) is that most government jobs require you to have passed the bar before they actually hire you, so you can rarely jump straight in after law school without some kind of fellowship (or DOJ honors, etc.). And as mentioned, PI and government hiring isn't done as far in advance as biglaw. Students going to big firms are pretty much set in the fall of their second year, while service-track hiring is often done at the very last minute.

But if you're looking at lower T-14, the school will definitely have a PI career services office, so they're the best people to ask about this. I've found that talking directly with the admins in those offices was much more valuable than talking to admissions, since the career services admin doesn't have a vested interest in you attending their school. They're more likely to be honest. They can also put you in touch with current/former students on that career track, which is another good source of information.

[pancakes3]

just word of mouth but agencies like demonstrated interest but DOJ/USAO are not as narrative-driven (civil rights applicant gets ATR interview, etc.)

[Rowinguy2009]

There is also a lot of variation in government jobs. Most federal government jobs are really difficult to get because of the sheer number of applications they receive for any individual opening.

When I interviewed for the fed gov job that I'll be starting soon, the interviewers told me they had received over 300 applications. Obviously some agencies like DOJ and DOD receive more applications than others. IMO, while the lesser known agencies (like, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, for example) receive less apps, some of those are probably going to be even more focused on finding a person with a suitable background because of the specialized nature of the agency. Thus, getting a position with an agency like that can be even harder if you're just a typical K-JD with good-great credentials who is throwing applications all over USAjobs.

State government is easier (although certainly not always easy), and generally depends more on ties. If you have good grades at a t14 and real ties to someplace like Tennessee or New Mexico, I would think you'd be a near shoe-in at some kind of local state agency or the AG's office.

Edit to add -- some jobs with the city attorney can also be pretty sweet from what I understand, and I would imagine that law students tend to apply to those way less often because they're not quite as well known as DOJ, state attorney general, etc.

[A. Nony Mouse]

just word of mouth but agencies like demonstrated interest but DOJ/USAO are not as narrative-driven (civil rights applicant gets ATR interview, etc.)

At some level all this is speculation and it can change from year to year depending on who's doing the hiring, but I don't think this is generally true. If anything, I think some of the non-DOJ honors programs are less narrative-driven than DOJ. I think when you get something like the civil rights applicant getting a ATR interview, that's because they're someone who's a reasonable candidate for either.

[pterodactyls]

But if you're looking at lower T-14, the school will definitely have a PI career services office, so they're the best people to ask about this. I've found that talking directly with the admins in those offices was much more valuable than talking to admissions, since the career services admin doesn't have a vested interest in you attending their school. They're more likely to be honest. They can also put you in touch with current/former students on that career track, which is another good source of information.

+1

I met with the PI career counselors when I was doing individual school visits and it was the most helpful thing. Instead of saying "we're the best, you can do anything with our degree" like admissions, they actually gave me a realistic idea of where I could expect to end up and told me how my grades/rank would affect that.

[Teoeo]

It is much harder straight out of law school. Lateraling is not outrageously hard if you have the right background.

Edit: talking about bigfed here. State and county jobs are easier.

[Fed_Atty]

My agency gets the majority of its attorneys as laterals - our summer program is pretty small. When I went to new-hire orientation, it seemed that the majority had been practicing for 5+ years. The other thing that makes getting into the federal government tough is that a lot of people tend to stick around for a long time. Often, a vacancy will come up when someone retires. You are not going to be competitive for this vacancy as someone straight out of law school as this person will likely have been practicing for 20+ years.

[cavalier1138]

My agency gets the majority of its attorneys as laterals - our summer program is pretty small. When I went to new-hire orientation, it seemed that the majority had been practicing for 5+ years. The other thing that makes getting into the federal government tough is that a lot of people tend to stick around for a long time. Often, a vacancy will come up when someone retires. You are not going to be competitive for this vacancy as someone straight out of law school as this person will likely have been practicing for 20+ years.

Without going into specifics, do you know if the attorneys that lateral in to your agency are from biglaw or from PI jobs?

[Fed_Atty]

We tend to get a mixture. For our IP practice it tends to be mainly former private practice. For our other practices, we get them from all over. We also get quite a few former JAGs, either retired or separated. PM me if you want to be more specific.

[PDX4343]

Thanks for all of your responses. This has been really helpful.

[twenty]

Honestly, I'd say in some ways, government jobs are actually easier to get than biglaw, because they're less grade-dependent. You just can't afford to be stupid about it. But it happens SO GOD DAMN MUCH I'm beginning to wonder if the reason people moan and groan about not being able to get on with the government is because they fall into the stupid-category.

There are federal honors programs that are just completely ignored by law students. USPS axed their honors hiring program because they couldn't get enough interest for it in effing 2013. They made offers to basically everyone that interned there, and then after that, made offers to people who had other federal internships on their resumes. Army Corps of Engineers takes 10-20 people a year - guess what, most of those people are going to be successful former interns. Prestigious federal agencies they are most certainly not, but man, being at an unprestigious federal agency sure beats being un(der)employed.

For unknown reasons, 1Ls and 2Ls gun for jobs they have no chance of getting. People at my (T1) school were beyond ecstatic to get to volunteer for the summer with DOJ, prestigious judges, Innocence Project, ACLU, etc. - and it's just like, wow, what a complete throwaway. Why on earth would you do research work for a professor over the summer? Maybe if you're 100% sure you're going to clerk or get biglaw, but if you're thinking you want to work for a specific federal agency, you actually have to summer for the damn agency.

[pancakes3]

and with that post, twenty single-handedly effected a 45% spike in bigfed applications