Law Grads: Did you regret turning down an Ivy? Forum

[Barack O'Drama]

No one gives a shit about "Ivy" for law schools.

T14 v. T1 is a different discussion.

Okay so out of my choices, and considering my goals, should I go with Cornell or Fordham? Fordham would be about 1/3 the price, plus its in the city so I can take a lot of internships and make lots of connections. Also, they seem to have a more public service/civil rights bent than Cornell, at least based on their course and clinical offerings.

While I still think Fordham is better than 'Dozo, I still think Cornell with your scholly will be better. Even better advice is to retake the LSAT and put together and application you don't regret. I'm guessing you're around my age (22-23) and applied this cycle and don't have many good options. Cornell was the highest rank school you got into, which is definitely a great Law school. But, no matter what people are telling you, you are finding every reason why a lower ranked school may be better. You being debt-averse is a good thing, but as it stands now I think you should retake. If you got into Cornell your LSAT must have been in the mid 160s (unless you're a URM, but still would have to be close) and you must also have a decent GPA. Just retake, hit the high-160s/170s and reapply. You can get NYU, which is where you seem to truly want to go. Forget about Ivy vs. non-Ivy and focus on getting better options that will help you gain employment in the fields you're interested in. If Fordham was a full-ride my opinion may change. They're stingy with aid though.

I'm also confused because you mentioned interest in entertainment law that seems to have changed to into-descrimination law? is that correct?

Also, what are your stats?

tl;dr Either go to Cornell or retake and apply to schools you actually want to go to. Don't settle on perhaps the biggest and most important decision of your life.

No one gives a shit about "Ivy" for law schools.

T14 v. T1 is a different discussion.

Okay so out of my choices, and considering my goals, should I go with Cornell or Fordham? Fordham would be about 1/3 the price, plus its in the city so I can take a lot of internships and make lots of connections. Also, they seem to have a more public service/civil rights bent than Cornell, at least based on their course and clinical offerings.

As everyone else has been telling you, you should without question go to Cornell. But you seem to have made up your mind, so do what you want and report back in 3 years.

My answer (and likely the answers of other posters) has literally 0 to do with the fact that Cornell is an Ivy League school. The advice on this board is completely motivated by the fact that Cornell is a better school. Suppose the circumstances were different, and you wanted to be in DC post-LS and were choosing between UVA and Catholic (in this fantasy world, you didn't get into GULC). We would tell you to go to UVA because it is clearly the better school. So it has nothing to do with Cornell being an Ivy and everything to do with Cornell having objectively better employment #s.

This seems like a good way to out it.

Go to Cornell. The extra debt will suck, yes. But the employment prospects far outweighs that. Besides, you never truly know what you'll want to do with your degree until you have taken classes and gotten some experience. I know plenty of people who have gone to ls intending to practice one thing or another and ended up liking something else. So basing where you want to go to school on classes and clinics should be taken into consideration, though very lightly so.

That said, Cornell will give you a wayyyy better chance to go into basically any field of law you want post-graduation than any other school on your radar. In life, particularly law, you want to leave your options as open as possible. Who is to say you won't end up deciding big law is what you want to pursue? You just never know. If you want to work in NYC Cornell is a big feeder into NYC law jobs. They are mainly big law, but still..

Also Cornell OCI is going to dwarf Dozo's and Fordham's. So you have to keep that in mind, too.

Either way, OP I wish you luck. I just have learned that if everyone on this site, filled with tons of law grads both successful and non-successful (Which speak to what NOT to do) and telling you something is the right/wrong choice, they are usually always right.

[jbagelboy]

jbagel, I won't go too far to bat for Fordham, but yes it is traditionally considered first tier (top 50). You can say its shitty and thats fine, its still not second tier.

What would you say is "shitty" about it? I'd like to know before I decide to take out loans for it, lol.

It would be a huge mistake for you to attend Fordham. You should be taking out loans for Cornell, if anything. It's different to understand why you are still considering this.

For Fordham I'd take out 1/3 the loans as for Cornell, they have more comprehensive course offerings so I can learn about Entertainment Law and Civil Rights if I so choose, and it's in the city so I have a wider range of organizations where I can intern, not just during the summer but every semester during my 2L and 3L if I want to. What Cardozo has is field clinics which actually put you in the office where you work; they even have a field clinic at the NY Attorney General's office in Manhattan. So to brush that off and say it's nothing is really a mistake IMO, because at Cornell, at most I can do 2 internships over the summer, and one externship. I can do a lot more and gain way more experience & connections by staying in the city.

None of that matters. None of that will have any real impact on your legal career. How many different ways can we explain this to you?

[JenDarby]

jbagel, I won't go too far to bat for Fordham, but yes it is traditionally considered first tier (top 50). You can say its shitty and thats fine, its still not second tier.

What would you say is "shitty" about it? I'd like to know before I decide to take out loans for it, lol.

I'm not saying it's shitty, but a lot of people around here would argue it is. I went there and everything worked out very well for me and nearly all of my friends.

[silverdoe91]

jbagel, I won't go too far to bat for Fordham, but yes it is traditionally considered first tier (top 50). You can say its shitty and thats fine, its still not second tier.

What would you say is "shitty" about it? I'd like to know before I decide to take out loans for it, lol.

It would be a huge mistake for you to attend Fordham. You should be taking out loans for Cornell, if anything. It's different to understand why you are still considering this.

For Fordham I'd take out 1/3 the loans as for Cornell, they have more comprehensive course offerings so I can learn about Entertainment Law and Civil Rights if I so choose, and it's in the city so I have a wider range of organizations where I can intern, not just during the summer but every semester during my 2L and 3L if I want to. What Cardozo has is field clinics which actually put you in the office where you work; they even have a field clinic at the NY Attorney General's office in Manhattan. So to brush that off and say it's nothing is really a mistake IMO, because at Cornell, at most I can do 2 internships over the summer, and one externship. I can do a lot more and gain way more experience & connections by staying in the city.

None of that matters. None of that will have any real impact on your legal career. How many different ways can we explain this to you?

So you're saying gaining experience and connections is not necessary? And that it's not good to take classes in areas of law you're interested in to see whether or not you wish to pursue it?

[cavalier1138]

jbagel, I won't go too far to bat for Fordham, but yes it is traditionally considered first tier (top 50). You can say its shitty and thats fine, its still not second tier.

What would you say is "shitty" about it? I'd like to know before I decide to take out loans for it, lol.

It would be a huge mistake for you to attend Fordham. You should be taking out loans for Cornell, if anything. It's different to understand why you are still considering this.

For Fordham I'd take out 1/3 the loans as for Cornell, they have more comprehensive course offerings so I can learn about Entertainment Law and Civil Rights if I so choose, and it's in the city so I have a wider range of organizations where I can intern, not just during the summer but every semester during my 2L and 3L if I want to. What Cardozo has is field clinics which actually put you in the office where you work; they even have a field clinic at the NY Attorney General's office in Manhattan. So to brush that off and say it's nothing is really a mistake IMO, because at Cornell, at most I can do 2 internships over the summer, and one externship. I can do a lot more and gain way more experience & connections by staying in the city.

None of that matters. None of that will have any real impact on your legal career. How many different ways can we explain this to you?

So you're saying gaining experience and connections is not necessary? And that it's not good to take classes in areas of law you're interested in to see whether or not you wish to pursue it?

Connections mean nothing compared to your school's reputation if you want to work in a selective area of PI (high-level civil rights law). And you are absolutely insane if you think that the course offerings at a school matter. Every school offers the necessary coursework to get into any major field of law. The only "unique" offerings you'll find will be crap like Medieval Scandinavian Blood Feuds and the Law, which will no doubt be fascinating, but not a course worth choosing a school for.

I can't imagine any attorneys in the fields you want to work in are telling you to turn down Cornell. Literally no one is telling you to turn down Cornell. I have no idea why you hate the idea of setting yourself up for a more successful career track, but all you're doing by continuing to debate this is sabotaging yourself.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm going to disagree with jbagel a little and say that externships and work done during school can actually be very important and matter a lot. But they matter much more the worse your school's placement stats are - you are going to have enough better employment options coming out of Cornell that it will more than make up for the difference. I'm also not sure why you think you're limited to one externship at Cornell - you get plenty of experience anywhere you go. Keep in mind that Cornell grads overwhelmingly end up in NYC so it's not like you're going to be trying for a NYC job coming from Mars.

Also, with regard to class offerings: 1) taking a class in a subject doesn't actually always tell you very much about whether you would enjoy practicing in that area, and 2) (more importantly) just because a school lists a class in its course descriptions doesn't mean the class is offered at all regularly. You need to look at the actual course schedules and see how frequently a given class is offered. Some schools have catalogs that look amazing, but the actual offerings are a relatively small percentage of the total catalog.

Besides, you don't need to do a clinic to work someplace. Just because Cardozo has a clinic at the NY AG's office, doesn't mean that you can't get experience at the NY AG's office from any other school.

Keep in mind that law is a generalist's degree and so you don't really specialize the way that you do in undergrad or other grad programs. There are lots of broad, umbrella-type topics that are absolutely pertinent to civil rights / discrimination law. Whatever your concerns about going to Cornell, "they don't have enough course offerings" is not one of them.

[A. Nony Mouse]

jbagel, I won't go too far to bat for Fordham, but yes it is traditionally considered first tier (top 50). You can say its shitty and thats fine, its still not second tier.

Top 50 of what? Us news?

I'm not talking about US news and the masturbatory line-drawing exercises beloved by those eunuch sophists. In the legal world its not a first tier school compared to Cornell. I'm not actually saying it's shitty, there are non-elite law schools that do well by their students and still serve an important social purpose.

Eh, it's pretty common here to say T14 --> Tier 1/2/3/etc. T1 doesn't actually mean "top of all law schools" and you know that.

[JenDarby]

jbagel, I won't go too far to bat for Fordham, but yes it is traditionally considered first tier (top 50). You can say its shitty and thats fine, its still not second tier.

Top 50 of what? Us news?

I'm not talking about US news and the masturbatory line-drawing exercises beloved by those eunuch sophists. In the legal world its not a first tier school compared to Cornell. I'm not actually saying it's shitty, there are non-elite law schools that do well by their students and still serve an important social purpose.

Eh, it's pretty common here to say T14 --> Tier 1/2/3/etc. T1 doesn't actually mean "top of all law schools" and you know that.

[Barack O'Drama]

jbagel, I won't go too far to bat for Fordham, but yes it is traditionally considered first tier (top 50). You can say its shitty and thats fine, its still not second tier.

Top 50 of what? Us news?

I'm not talking about US news and the masturbatory line-drawing exercises beloved by those eunuch sophists. In the legal world its not a first tier school compared to Cornell. I'm not actually saying it's shitty, there are non-elite law schools that do well by their students and still serve an important social purpose.

LMFAO

Anywhos, dude, you have to let go of the idea of "courses" at a certain school. If you want to work practicing entertaining law, the most important factor that will give you a good shot at this is a top school. It is a common ploy among lower-ranked schools to entice students like yourself in their doors and take their money, lulled in by entertainment law clinics and such. Screw all that. Anything you want will be more obtainable from Cornell. You haven't really said anything new when every poster has addressed your concerns and answered your questions.

Jen is right that clinics and externships matter a lot for PI and other fields. But, in your case, I can't imagine --with the exception of debt-- any other school you've discussed coming anywhere close to giving you the opportunities you'll get from C. I truly admire you being debt-averse, as I am myself, but it's not like you've got a free ride at Fordham which would merit this debate. You have a decent scholly at C, and a little bit of a better one at the other schools, but still man, you're going to regret it. And if it all works out for you if you choose otherwise, I will be happy for ya. But if you're this debt averse, be averse to paying all that money, albeit less, to a school where you might not have the opportunity. The extra money is worth it!

[Dcc617]

jbagel, I won't go too far to bat for Fordham, but yes it is traditionally considered first tier (top 50). You can say its shitty and thats fine, its still not second tier.

What would you say is "shitty" about it? I'd like to know before I decide to take out loans for it, lol.

It would be a huge mistake for you to attend Fordham. You should be taking out loans for Cornell, if anything. It's different to understand why you are still considering this.

For Fordham I'd take out 1/3 the loans as for Cornell, they have more comprehensive course offerings so I can learn about Entertainment Law and Civil Rights if I so choose, and it's in the city so I have a wider range of organizations where I can intern, not just during the summer but every semester during my 2L and 3L if I want to. What Cardozo has is field clinics which actually put you in the office where you work; they even have a field clinic at the NY Attorney General's office in Manhattan. So to brush that off and say it's nothing is really a mistake IMO, because at Cornell, at most I can do 2 internships over the summer, and one externship. I can do a lot more and gain way more experience & connections by staying in the city.

silverdoe, here is the LST summary of job outcomes:


How does that not resonate with you? There is a huge difference in employment outcomes.

As far as NY public interest firms, you are suffering from selection bias. It may be that they are predominantly from those schools, but you are seeing the survivors. You are seeing the 10% of their graduates who actually got good jobs. Almost EVERYONE from Cornell get good jobs, at least according to LST.

All that being said, you don't have to attend any of these schools this semester. Take a year off, retake and reapply.

[silverdoe91]

LMFAO

Anywhos, dude, you have to let go of the idea of "courses" at a certain school. If you want to work practicing entertaining law, the most important factor that will give you a good shot at this is a top school. It is a common ploy among lower-ranked schools to entice students like yourself in their doors and take their money, lulled in by entertainment law clinics and such. Screw all that. Anything you want will be more obtainable from Cornell. You haven't really said anything new when every poster has addressed your concerns and answered your questions.

Jen is right that clinics and externships matter a lot for PI and other fields. But, in your case, I can't imagine --with the exception of debt-- any other school you've discussed coming anywhere close to giving you the opportunities you'll get from C. I truly admire you being debt-averse, as I am myself, but it's not like you've got a free ride at Fordham which would merit this debate. You have a decent scholly at C, and a little bit of a better one at the other schools, but still man, you're going to regret it. And if it all works out for you if you choose otherwise, I will be happy for ya. But if you're this debt averse, be averse to paying all that money, albeit less, to a school where you might not have the opportunity. The extra money is worth it!

I don't think Cardozo is trying to "lull" me in order to get my money, since they are offering me a full, unconditional scholarship.

[silverdoe91]

All that being said, you don't have to attend any of these schools this semester. Take a year off, retake and reapply.

I am considering that. How would I be viewed as a second-time applicant though? I am worried that may be a disadvantage in some way.

[cavalier1138]

Look, let's make this really simple:

Has anyone told you that you should go somewhere besides Cornell in your situation?

[silverdoe91]

Look, let's make this really simple:

Has anyone told you that you should go somewhere besides Cornell in your situation?

Yes, they have. Many attorneys I know personally have told me I'm better off saving my money and going to Cardozo on a full ride, especially since I plan on practicing Public Interest Law and will not make that much money. They said unless I want to go into BigLaw there is no reason to take out so many loans and go so far away, when I should be making contacts here in NYC through internships.

[Dcc617]

All that being said, you don't have to attend any of these schools this semester. Take a year off, retake and reapply.

I am considering that. How would I be viewed as a second-time applicant though? I am worried that may be a disadvantage in some way.

It did not negatively impact me at all. I substantially improved my score and got in to all of the schools that I had been waitlisted and rejected to. LSAT trumps all.

[silverdoe91]

I've literally gotten conflicting advice on here and out in the real world, which is why it's so hard for me to make a decision. And why I'm starting to think that may people on this forum might have a bias towards top schools? I mean that is the name of this forum, after all, so that would not be surprising. But idk if that's because most people on this board went to top schools themselves or aspire to, but it really does seem to be in conflict with what I've seen and heard in the real world (and I've worked at some top law firms.)

[silverdoe91]

All that being said, you don't have to attend any of these schools this semester. Take a year off, retake and reapply.

I am considering that. How would I be viewed as a second-time applicant though? I am worried that may be a disadvantage in some way.

It did not negatively impact me at all. I substantially improved my score and got in to all of the schools that I had been waitlisted and rejected to. LSAT trumps all.

How did you improve your score?

[Dcc617]

[Dcc617]

All that being said, you don't have to attend any of these schools this semester. Take a year off, retake and reapply.

I am considering that. How would I be viewed as a second-time applicant though? I am worried that may be a disadvantage in some way.

It did not negatively impact me at all. I substantially improved my score and got in to all of the schools that I had been waitlisted and rejected to. LSAT trumps all.

How did you improve your score?

I committed for about two months of hard core studying. I also used an online LSAT course.

[cavalier1138]

Look, let's make this really simple:

Has anyone told you that you should go somewhere besides Cornell in your situation?

Yes, they have. Many attorneys I know personally have told me I'm better off saving my money and going to Cardozo on a full ride, especially since I plan on practicing Public Interest Law and will not make that much money. They said unless I want to go into BigLaw there is no reason to take out so many loans and go so far away, when I should be making contacts here in NYC through internships.

Are you telling these attorneys what type of PI law you want to practice? Because you keep on talking about high-level PI and entertainment law, and those opportunities are not readily available to every Cardozo graduate.

Also, how old are these attorneys? And are they practicing in the specific organizations you want to work in?

[silverdoe91]

All that being said, you don't have to attend any of these schools this semester. Take a year off, retake and reapply.

I am considering that. How would I be viewed as a second-time applicant though? I am worried that may be a disadvantage in some way.

It did not negatively impact me at all. I substantially improved my score and got in to all of the schools that I had been waitlisted and rejected to. LSAT trumps all.

How did you improve your score?

I committed for about two months of hard core studying. I also used an online LSAT course.

I used Blueprint in the past, which one did you use?

[silverdoe91]

Look, let's make this really simple:

Has anyone told you that you should go somewhere besides Cornell in your situation?

Yes, they have. Many attorneys I know personally have told me I'm better off saving my money and going to Cardozo on a full ride, especially since I plan on practicing Public Interest Law and will not make that much money. They said unless I want to go into BigLaw there is no reason to take out so many loans and go so far away, when I should be making contacts here in NYC through internships.

Are you telling these attorneys what type of PI law you want to practice? Because you keep on talking about high-level PI and entertainment law, and those opportunities are not readily available to every Cardozo graduate.

Also, how old are these attorneys? And are they practicing in the specific organizations you want to work in?

One of the attorneys I spoke to graduated from Cardozo and he is now the director of NYCLU's Nassau department...I'm not quite sure how old he is, since I got in touch with him through the school. Another Cardozo grad is working for the government in Washington DC and he seems to be fairly young...another turned down Berkeley for Cardozo and he ended up working at a Hedge Fund and apparently makes millions.

As for attorneys I personally know, one worked for Conde Nast for several years which I think is a pretty competitive role in the entertainment field. Another worked at NYLAG, a non-profit like Legal Aid. I wouldn't mind doing that job, although high level PI would be better of course. Both of them seemed to do a lot of internships to get to where they are (at least a year's worth while in school.) But I think in those fields (PI and entertainment law) lots of internship experience would be necessary no matter where you go, no? I guess Cornell has more fellowships, but those don't even last for more than 1 or 2 years. Plus from my understanding not everyone at Cornell is successful at getting a fellowship. I don't remember if I mentioned to them the specific type of law I want to go into, or perhaps they did not making specific comments in regards to that because they simply said save your money and do lots of internships and make connections that way; they said all the jobs you get now are through networking so you're better off saving your money.

Also, I don't really know of any Cornell grads who go into Entertainment Law or even IP and I think it may be for simply a lack of internship opportunities in the area.

[silverdoe91]

Another concern for me is debt...I feel like across the board, the one similarity I see among all lawyers is their resentment for having to pay off loans, no matter how successful they are. They always seem to lament not taking a full ride or a better deal elsewhere. So I'm wondering if the more practical solution would be to try to graduate without debt.

[Wol]

You have clearly made up your mind. So, why the delay in depositing?

[silverdoe91]

You have clearly made up your mind. So, why the delay in depositing?

I gave in my deposit to Fordham on June 1st, but it is refundable (partially.) The next day, I got a call from Cardozo telling me they are willing to offer me a full ride. I was considering going for that, but I got a temp job soon after in order to pay off law school expenses. I don't know how long it will last, but I might want to stay there for a little longer than 2 months, so I am back to considering Fordham because they have night classes. Cornell keeps coming back into the picture literally because it's an Ivy and people say my job outcome is better. I always figured that as long as I'm not at the bottom 20% percent at Cardozo/Fordham I will be able to get a job. The type of job is clearly important, but Fordham has a pretty good rep with BigLaw in NYC and also getting PI fellowships and govt. honors positions. Cardozo keeps coming back into the picture because I wonder if going to school debt free would be a worthy trade off. So I haven't really made my mind up, lol...does it seem like I have?