Mediocre Grades and Yet Got the Firm Job I Wanted, AMA Forum

[Hikikomorist]

How long were you an unpaid intern?

[mrsnrub]

Though, I will admit that my grades were weird and I'd get like As and -As, but then a C in something like Estate Taxation and completely tank my GPA. I don't know if that made my life easier or harder than the average person of my ranking.

[mrsnrub]

How long were you an unpaid intern?

A few months and then they liked my work so they started paying me.

[cavalier1138]

"You really can't get into IP without a technical background. Also these schools are too expensive. Retake or don't go."

Luckily, I didn't listen to these folks (especially since I sort of suck at math, so being an accountant probably wouldn't have worked) and now get to do IP.

I have no idea what the context for that quote was, but the type of IP you encounter in entertainment work isn't generally what people mean when they discuss IP law. So that may have been the source of confusion.

Just out of curiosity, since you've refused to give specifics: how much debt did you graduate with, and how much are you earning? Most of the reason people say that you shouldn't spend [X] amount of money on a specific school with mediocre job outcomes is that your likely salary will not be enough to service the debt.

[kellyfrost]

It's a non-biglaw firm. Congrats on getting a legal job paying somewhat decently (I'm guessing 60-90k) from bottom half of a T1, but that's not entirely uncommon. Non-biglaw firms are not nearly as grade sensitive and care a lot more about interviews, ties, work experience, etc.

The "25%" chance refers to biglaw because 25% of of a class at the school in question got a biglaw job.

Nobody is saying you HAVE to go to a T14 if you want a legal job, they're saying if you want a biglaw job (or prestigious PI or whatever else that's competitive), you best maximize your odds because 25% or 30% or whatever aren't great odds.

Have you landed you first full time job out of law school yet? Oh, you are still in law school? Please, continue to advise others on post-law school employment.

Jesus...

[kellyfrost]

It's a non-biglaw firm. Congrats on getting a legal job paying somewhat decently (I'm guessing 60-90k) from bottom half of a T1, but that's not entirely uncommon. Non-biglaw firms are not nearly as grade sensitive and care a lot more about interviews, ties, work experience, etc.

To be fair to OP, "boutique" can mean a lot of things, and people here do assume that entertainment law is a unicorn outcome. I don't think s/he's quite right about the advice given here, but you're kind of making their argument for them.

Agreed, Nony. Not sure what Peanuts is going for here... Hopefully he has just been drinking a lot this weekend and is drunk posting.

[PeanutsNJam]

It's a non-biglaw firm. Congrats on getting a legal job paying somewhat decently (I'm guessing 60-90k) from bottom half of a T1, but that's not entirely uncommon. Non-biglaw firms are not nearly as grade sensitive and care a lot more about interviews, ties, work experience, etc.

The "25%" chance refers to biglaw because 25% of of a class at the school in question got a biglaw job.

Nobody is saying you HAVE to go to a T14 if you want a legal job, they're saying if you want a biglaw job (or prestigious PI or whatever else that's competitive), you best maximize your odds because 25% or 30% or whatever aren't great odds.

Have you landed you first full time job out of law school yet? Oh, you are still in law school? Please, continue to advise others on post-law school employment.

Jesus...

How is having full time employment somehow going to make me any more qualified to talk about law school employment in general? We're all working off the same ABA 509 data. You don't automatically get a memo when you get your first full time job detailing how legal hiring works.

[kellyfrost]

It's a non-biglaw firm. Congrats on getting a legal job paying somewhat decently (I'm guessing 60-90k) from bottom half of a T1, but that's not entirely uncommon. Non-biglaw firms are not nearly as grade sensitive and care a lot more about interviews, ties, work experience, etc.

The "25%" chance refers to biglaw because 25% of of a class at the school in question got a biglaw job.

Nobody is saying you HAVE to go to a T14 if you want a legal job, they're saying if you want a biglaw job (or prestigious PI or whatever else that's competitive), you best maximize your odds because 25% or 30% or whatever aren't great odds.

Have you landed you first full time job out of law school yet? Oh, you are still in law school? Please, continue to advise others on post-law school employment.

Jesus...

How is having full time employment somehow going to make me any more qualified to talk about law school employment in general? We're all working off the same ABA 509 data. You don't automatically get a memo when you get your first full time job detailing how legal hiring works.

Qualified? Or Credible? Credibility is very important, as you may learn when you take a trial advocacy class, join the trial team, or intern your 2L-3L years.

[mrsnrub]

"You really can't get into IP without a technical background. Also these schools are too expensive. Retake or don't go."

Luckily, I didn't listen to these folks (especially since I sort of suck at math, so being an accountant probably wouldn't have worked) and now get to do IP.

I have no idea what the context for that quote was, but the type of IP you encounter in entertainment work isn't generally what people mean when they discuss IP law. So that may have been the source of confusion.

Just out of curiosity, since you've refused to give specifics: how much debt did you graduate with, and how much are you earning? Most of the reason people say that you shouldn't spend [X] amount of money on a specific school with mediocre job outcomes is that your likely salary will not be enough to service the debt.

Definitely possible, as my degrees weren't in science. Though, I was always sort of clear that I wanted to do trademarks or copyright.

$90/a metric shit ton, I think 150ish (my parents barely graduated high school, so I paid for it on my own and turned down, technically, better schools that offered me more money to go to a school in the city that I wanted to work in). I'll probably do income based, at first. It's a real boon to people who went to professional schools.

[mrsnrub]

It's a non-biglaw firm. Congrats on getting a legal job paying somewhat decently (I'm guessing 60-90k) from bottom half of a T1, but that's not entirely uncommon. Non-biglaw firms are not nearly as grade sensitive and care a lot more about interviews, ties, work experience, etc.

The "25%" chance refers to biglaw because 25% of of a class at the school in question got a biglaw job.

Nobody is saying you HAVE to go to a T14 if you want a legal job, they're saying if you want a biglaw job (or prestigious PI or whatever else that's competitive), you best maximize your odds because 25% or 30% or whatever aren't great odds.

Have you landed you first full time job out of law school yet? Oh, you are still in law school? Please, continue to advise others on post-law school employment.

Jesus...

How is having full time employment somehow going to make me any more qualified to talk about law school employment in general? We're all working off the same ABA 509 data. You don't automatically get a memo when you get your first full time job detailing how legal hiring works.

Qualified? Or Credible? Credibility is very important, as you may learn when you take a trial advocacy class, join the trial team, or intern your 2L-3L years.

SAVAGE

[PeanutsNJam]

It's a non-biglaw firm. Congrats on getting a legal job paying somewhat decently (I'm guessing 60-90k) from bottom half of a T1, but that's not entirely uncommon. Non-biglaw firms are not nearly as grade sensitive and care a lot more about interviews, ties, work experience, etc.

The "25%" chance refers to biglaw because 25% of of a class at the school in question got a biglaw job.

Nobody is saying you HAVE to go to a T14 if you want a legal job, they're saying if you want a biglaw job (or prestigious PI or whatever else that's competitive), you best maximize your odds because 25% or 30% or whatever aren't great odds.

Have you landed you first full time job out of law school yet? Oh, you are still in law school? Please, continue to advise others on post-law school employment.

Jesus...

How is having full time employment somehow going to make me any more qualified to talk about law school employment in general? We're all working off the same ABA 509 data. You don't automatically get a memo when you get your first full time job detailing how legal hiring works.

Qualified? Or Credible? Credibility is very important, as you may learn when you take a trial advocacy class, join the trial team, or intern your 2L-3L years.

SAVAGE

How is having full time employment somehow going to make me any more qualified to talk credible about law school employment in general? We're all working off the same ABA 509 data. You don't automatically get a memo when you get your first full time job detailing how legal hiring works.

[cavalier1138]

"You really can't get into IP without a technical background. Also these schools are too expensive. Retake or don't go."

Luckily, I didn't listen to these folks (especially since I sort of suck at math, so being an accountant probably wouldn't have worked) and now get to do IP.

I have no idea what the context for that quote was, but the type of IP you encounter in entertainment work isn't generally what people mean when they discuss IP law. So that may have been the source of confusion.

Just out of curiosity, since you've refused to give specifics: how much debt did you graduate with, and how much are you earning? Most of the reason people say that you shouldn't spend [X] amount of money on a specific school with mediocre job outcomes is that your likely salary will not be enough to service the debt.

Definitely possible, as my degrees weren't in science. Though, I was always sort of clear that I wanted to do trademarks or copyright.

$90/a metric shit ton, I think 150ish (my parents barely graduated high school, so I paid for it on my own and turned down, technically, better schools that offered me more money to go to a school in the city that I wanted to work in). I'll probably do income based, at first. It's a real boon to people who went to professional schools.

Are you familiar with the term "negative amortization"?

I'm starting to get an idea of why you got the advice you did. And this is starting to be a very bad boasting thread.

[mrsnrub]

"You really can't get into IP without a technical background. Also these schools are too expensive. Retake or don't go."

Luckily, I didn't listen to these folks (especially since I sort of suck at math, so being an accountant probably wouldn't have worked) and now get to do IP.

I have no idea what the context for that quote was, but the type of IP you encounter in entertainment work isn't generally what people mean when they discuss IP law. So that may have been the source of confusion.

Just out of curiosity, since you've refused to give specifics: how much debt did you graduate with, and how much are you earning? Most of the reason people say that you shouldn't spend [X] amount of money on a specific school with mediocre job outcomes is that your likely salary will not be enough to service the debt.

Definitely possible, as my degrees weren't in science. Though, I was always sort of clear that I wanted to do trademarks or copyright.

$90/a metric shit ton, I think 150ish (my parents barely graduated high school, so I paid for it on my own and turned down, technically, better schools that offered me more money to go to a school in the city that I wanted to work in). I'll probably do income based, at first. It's a real boon to people who went to professional schools.

Are you familiar with the term "negative amortization"?

I'm starting to get an idea of why you got the advice you did. And this is starting to be a very bad boasting thread.

0 boasting, more like drunk trolling because this place is a hell hole of elitist ass hats who seem to relish in preying on the fear and anxiety of the many anxious people who go into the law and are applying to law schools.

I have in fact heard of negative amortization. I'll be fine brah.

[cavalier1138]

Qualified? Or Credible? Credibility is very important, as you may learn when you take a trial advocacy class, join the trial team, or intern your 2L-3L years.

That's like saying that someone who won the lottery is more qualified to talk about the probability of winning the lottery than anyone else.

The fact that outlier stories exist doesn't mean that the overall statistical data are incorrect. See, even though I'm a 0L (since I know you'll bring that up), I can read. Which is all you really need to be able to do to understand that if someone wants, for example, to work for a big law firm in New York, they aren't going to be able to do that from UC Hastings.

So unless your law school had a class in special ways to read 509 reports, you're no more credible than anyone else on this forum to discuss general job outcomes for law students.

[cavalier1138]

0 boasting, more like drunk trolling because this place is a hell hole of elitist ass hats who seem to relish in preying on the fear and anxiety of the many anxious people who go into the law and are applying to law schools.

I have in fact heard of negative amortization. I'll be fine brah.

Cool. Just as long as you're aware that this scenario is not proving all those "elitist ass hats" wrong. You graduated into a large amount of debt that you (surprise!) aren't able to service properly. And that sounds like exactly what people were warning you about when you got into that school in the first place.

[mrsnrub]

Qualified? Or Credible? Credibility is very important, as you may learn when you take a trial advocacy class, join the trial team, or intern your 2L-3L years.

That's like saying that someone who won the lottery is more qualified to talk about the probability of winning the lottery than anyone else.

The fact that outlier stories exist doesn't mean that the overall statistical data are incorrect. See, even though I'm a 0L (since I know you'll bring that up), I can read. Which is all you really need to be able to do to understand that if someone wants, for example, to work for a big law firm in New York, they aren't going to be able to do that from UC Hastings.

So unless your law school had a class in special ways to read 509 reports, you're no more credible than anyone else on this forum to discuss general job outcomes for law students.

Definitely should have known that you were a 0L. So much passion; so much confidence in your own opinion.

I'm definitely not saying that if you get into Cooley with no scholarship, you should go because life is going to be great. I'm saying that if you get into a good school that isn't HYS, don't listen to these people that tell you that it's not going to go well.

[mrsnrub]

0 boasting, more like drunk trolling because this place is a hell hole of elitist ass hats who seem to relish in preying on the fear and anxiety of the many anxious people who go into the law and are applying to law schools.

I have in fact heard of negative amortization. I'll be fine brah.

Cool. Just as long as you're aware that this scenario is not proving all those "elitist ass hats" wrong. You graduated into a large amount of debt that you (surprise!) aren't able to service properly. And that sounds like exactly what people were warning you about when you got into that school in the first place.

"Aren't able to service properly" lol, you're the type of person that is going to have a lot of friends in law school. I can service it fine, taking advantage of President Obama's decision to extend income-based payments to all people while I'm still making a not-gigantic salary.

[mrsnrub]

0 boasting, more like drunk trolling because this place is a hell hole of elitist ass hats who seem to relish in preying on the fear and anxiety of the many anxious people who go into the law and are applying to law schools.

I have in fact heard of negative amortization. I'll be fine brah.

Cool. Just as long as you're aware that this scenario is not proving all those "elitist ass hats" wrong. You graduated into a large amount of debt that you (surprise!) aren't able to service properly. And that sounds like exactly what people were warning you about when you got into that school in the first place.

Hope it works out for you, though!

[cavalier1138]

Qualified? Or Credible? Credibility is very important, as you may learn when you take a trial advocacy class, join the trial team, or intern your 2L-3L years.

That's like saying that someone who won the lottery is more qualified to talk about the probability of winning the lottery than anyone else.

The fact that outlier stories exist doesn't mean that the overall statistical data are incorrect. See, even though I'm a 0L (since I know you'll bring that up), I can read. Which is all you really need to be able to do to understand that if someone wants, for example, to work for a big law firm in New York, they aren't going to be able to do that from UC Hastings.

So unless your law school had a class in special ways to read 509 reports, you're no more credible than anyone else on this forum to discuss general job outcomes for law students.

Definitely should have known that you were a 0L. So much passion; so much confidence in your own opinion.

I'm definitely not saying that if you get into Cooley with no scholarship, you should go because life is going to be great. I'm saying that if you get into a good school that isn't HYS, don't listen to these people that tell you that it's not going to go well.

Because this is an "AMA", I just have to ask you one last question:

Before you started school, would you have considered increasing your debt while working "going well"?

[stego]

OP, what's the size of your firm? 25-50? 50-100?

[BigZuck]

I was going to post screenshots, but apparently you can't do that! I had a different username when I applied to schools, but I'll post some choice quotes:

"Dude do a MAcc. Become an accountant. Those schools at those prices is a loser's bet bro. Your crappy UG degree is not a reason to go to law school."

"You really can't get into IP without a technical background. Also these schools are too expensive. Retake or don't go."

Luckily, I didn't listen to these folks (especially since I sort of suck at math, so being an accountant probably wouldn't have worked) and now get to do IP.

What do you think separated you from the majority of your classmates with similar grades who did not get this type of outcome?

Maybe networking? I was able to meet one of the partners at the firm and we clicked. I started off my job as an unpaid law intern with, basically, no thoughts of a full time position, then they upgraded me to a paid law "clerk" (they changed the title, for God knows what reason), and then they finally offered me the job because another associate decided to leave the firm to become a talent manager.

My point, in general, is that this place is filled with a lot of gunners who go out of their way to shit on people. I didn't want to do big law, so I probably had a different mindset than a lot of people here, but I was able to get a job in the exact field that I want to work in, at a good salary, in the City I want to live in, working with insanely huge clients. If I listened to TLS Forum back in 2013, who the hell knows where I'd be.

Here's the thread:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... c#p6591442

People primarily focused on the too much debt thing (and at the risk of this turning into a johann callout thread, you did get into too much debt and at least right now you can't service it), the loving law thing (which seems silly when people say they are passionate about "property" and you snagging the job is not necessarily a win yet until you actually know that you really do like being a lawyer), and the losing bet thing (which, even if you do win on a bad bet doesn't mean the bet was a good one to take. Advice here can only consider expected outcomes, people can't predict the future).

I'm not trying to begrudge your success at all, good for you (seriously). But stop beating up on this "T14 or bust" straw man. It's already been burnt to the ground. What you and that spiderman dude are complaining about is complete and utter nonsense. Just because you have weird hangups or struggle with reading comprehension or whatever the issue is doesn't mean you need to take your frustration out on TLS.

[PeanutsNJam]

I mean BC/Notre Dame at 120-130k isn't the worst decision. I'm guessing OP went to BC. I wouldn't have definitively said "don't go." The legal hiring market has substantially improved since 2013 though, so I'm not surprised that people were much more risk averse in 2013.

Getting a job making idk whatever salary where you'd still need IBR from below median at BC really isn't special at all; it's fairly expected.

[mrsnrub]

OP, what's the size of your firm? 25-50? 50-100?

10. We're tiny, but somehow have gigantic clients. It's very strange.

[BigZuck]

Were you working as an unpaid intern at this firm while you were a law student?

[smaug]

ex ante/ex post, brej