Pursuing a T14 JD after a top 10 MPP Forum

[testusername555]

Has anyone here heard of graduates who have pursued both a T14 JD and an MPP program? If one here has pursued both, have you felt that you've gained something in the JD program that you would not have gained in the MPP program?

EDIT: To be clear my options are as follows: 1) stick with the job I get with my MPP, 2) go for GTwn law's part-time program 3) shoot for HLS/CCN at sticker. Dual JD/MPP won't work since the JD program at my school is well below T14, and may be even outside of T50.

I've enrolled, on a scholarship straight out of undergrad, in a top 10 public policy program (~top 20 national universities, since broad reputation seems to be more important) outside of the DC area for the Class of 2018. I'm hoping for DC employment, but I've been considering the breadth of the field and my young age, especially with my interest in constitutional/international/human rights law. I'm also concerned about financial safety for family/kids in policy sector. My situation is as follows:

I'll graduate from the MPP program with no debt in my early 20s, and I'll seek employment in the DC area, focusing on the GAO and related institutions. Based on my performance on the GRE (I know it's not directly translatable, but bear with me) and my undergrad GPA, I have the numbers for Georgetown Law, and with some improvement, potentially Columbia or Harvard Law. I have hooks to make up for any admission issues: STEM undergrad major, ties to a prestigious national scholarship program, and an advanced degree (MPP). Law school scenarios are as follows:

1) Georgetown Law part-time (full time job, 4 year JD program) will lead to minimal debt (eliminated by late-ish 20s), but high pressure scenario as its placement in Big Law (a job I'll likely hate, with 80 hour work weeks, and ~80% 5 year attrition rate, but with 160k starting salaries, potential for making partner, etc.) is a bit iffy--I'll likely need to graduate at least at the median GPA on top of job work to get through this. Clerkship placement is also tough as Georgetown is a "lower T14" school. Thus, it seems like GTwn only opens up public interest work, though law PI work may pay more than employment through MPP programs. However, I'll be able to maintain my DC network and work ethic when I can't for CLS or HLS.

2) Harvard and Columbia (HYS/CCN): as higher T14 schools and as full-time programs, I'll have little trouble getting into Big Law and a much easier time getting into a clerkship. But taking the high salary job (Big Law) is nonsensical: I'll hate it, will likely get fired before loans are even paid even if I live like I would've lived on an MPP job, and Harvard/Columbia's public interest programs (Harvard LIPP, 10 year plan and Columbia LRAP, 5 year plan) are relatively painless.

The primary reasons why I'm considering law are using it 1) to take care of family life and 2) as an avenue into constitutional/international/human rights law and related politics. However, as hard as it is for me to believe, the scenarios I've worked out have made it seem like T14 law programs have limited marginal benefit. Anyone have any input on these scenarios?

[TLSDookie]

Though this is ask a law student, and I'm a 0L, I was in a similar situation so I'll jump in here. I applied to law school after getting nearly a 4.0 in a quasi-public policy/STEM masters program at a prestigious university, and it counted for virtually nothing in my admissions decisions, in that my cycle was completely typical of a splitter with my numbers (3.0 undergrad GPA/173). I also had substantial work experience and extremely strong letters of rec, which again counted for very little. I would not assume Harvard/Columbia are attainable outcomes just because you get an MPP/work experience.

I'm happy to go in to more detail on my admissions cycle if you want to PM me. But it sounds like you want to do policy, not law, except in that the policy you want to do is law-related. I wouldn't consider a law degree a financial safety blanket or a more secure job in the "con/human rights law" field (not sure if this is even a field outside of unicorns/pre-existing connections for JDs, perhaps someone with WE could shed some light.)

I understand the stress you're feeling right now, as you don't see the marketability of an MPP having never worked in the field, and see a JD as a ticket to a well-paying job, especially one with law in its name. But it seems to me you're far better off not pursuing a JD right away. If you ultimately want to end up in policy, get the MPP, get work experience, speak to people your age in your field (old fogeys will tell you a JD is a valuable degree no matter what), and re-evaluate attending law school in 2-3 years.

[Cow]

First, it doesn’t sound like you’re really interest in practicing law. That in and of itself is reason alone not to go to law school. Don’t sink money and time into some vague notion that a law degree may somehow help your MPP-related career aspirations without a clearly established plan on exactly what you hope to do with it.

Also, the LSAT is nothing like the GRE so don’t automatically assume you could get the LSAT score for your target schools. Even if you do have the numbers, there are really no guarantees when it comes to T14 admissions (and especially not for a school like Harvard).

The primary reasons why I'm considering law are using it 1) to take care of family life

Taking on massive amounts of debt is a terrible choice if you want to take care of a family. Unless you intend to go into BigLaw (which you’ve stated you don’t want), the paycheck for a legal job isn’t going to be anything close to $160k and you’ll have debts to pay off. If you do take BigLaw, then you’ll have money but your family will never see you. Even if you end up in an $80-90k/yr legal position, the real question you should be asking isn’t “how much will I make” but rather “do I want to be a lawyer?”

You would be better off just taking a lower-paying MPP job without the debt (and, hopefully, with greater job satisfaction) if your interest is primarily public sector policy work.

and 2) as an avenue into constitutional/international/human rights law and related politics.

Constitutional law isn’t really a practice area. International law, also, is only really a practice area to the extent that you tack it on to some other field of law. Human rights law is largely a unicorn position (only a handful of positions exist and you’re not going to get one right out of school)- you’d be better off working for an NGO of some sort (likely in a non-legal capacity) if that’s really what motivates you. As for politics, yes a law degree from a T14 sure wouldn’t hurt, but it’s hardly a requirement or a sound justification for the three years of stress and the debt you’d take on in law school.

Granted, the types of positions you’ve mentioned probably aren’t going to be easy to get as an MPP grad either, but at least you won’t have six figures of debt following you around. That opens up a lot of flexibility, which is worth its weight in gold. For the type of positions you’re looking for, a JD offers only very marginal utility at best and certainly not enough to even remotely justify the time/money/effort. Even Georgetown isn’t a justifiable use of your time or money based on your goals.

However, as hard as it is for me to believe, the scenarios I've worked out have made it seem like T14 law programs have limited marginal benefit. Anyone have any input on these scenarios?

T14 programs absolutely have limited marginal benefit if your end goal isn’t to be a lawyer. It sounds like your field of interest is more closely aligned with your MPP. Your school’s MPP program is top-notch and you’re not going to have any debt; that’s awesome and you’ll be in a pretty good position at graduation. Don’t ruin it by going to law school for no reason.

[tomwatts]

Has anyone here heard of graduates who have pursued both a T14 JD and an MPP program? If one here has pursued both, have you felt that you've gained something in the JD program that you would not have gained in the MPP program?

I was a JD/MPP at HLS/HKS. This is a bit different from what you're describing, but I think I have some perspective on the choice you're facing, anyway.

I'm going to assume that you don't want to abandon policy altogether, which it sounds as though you don't. In that case, the main thing you gain from getting a JD is the ability to get a job that requires a law degree. There are some policy-related jobs in Congress, in the White House, in agencies, and so on that are primarily staffed by lawyers. (Staff for the Senate Judiciary Committee is one obvious example.) If you want to do one of those things, the MPP will not be enough to get you there. You also need a JD.

Biglaw is a possibility, but, again, if you don't want to abandon policy altogether, just about the only biglaw job that makes sense is a political/regulatory-related job in a DC firm. That's a pretty specific path; it would be worth looking at some big DC firms' websites to see what the practice areas are, what the qualifications of the associates in those areas are, etc. If you're still interested after that, I recommend finding out more before deciding to go to law school (informational interviews, etc.).

What it really comes down to is whether you want a job that requires (or "prefers," in some cases) a JD. The first thing to do is to figure out whether there are any of those that appeal to you (more than what you can do with an MPP). Then figure out if you want them enough to go through the time/expense of law school.

The primary reasons why I'm considering law are using it 1) to take care of family life and 2) as an avenue into constitutional/international/human rights law and related politics. However, as hard as it is for me to believe, the scenarios I've worked out have made it seem like T14 law programs have limited marginal benefit. Anyone have any input on these scenarios?

1) If you just mean that it makes more money, that's only guaranteed if you go into biglaw, and biglaw is such a time drain that your family life may suffer. If not biglaw, then you have to sit down and seriously work through the pay scales at jobs that you think you could get now vs. jobs you think you could get with a law degree (subtracting debt and three years' seniority, presumably) to figure out whether it really would make more money.
2) It's pretty darn hard to break into "constitutional/international/human rights law and related politics" even with a top-flight law degree. Not very many people actually work on these things. Try to find someone who does something in this area that you're interested in and figure out if their path is repeatable. Most of the time you will determine that it is not, because they have the only job like theirs.

[Londonbear]

First, it doesn’t sound like you’re really interest in practicing law. That in and of itself is reason alone not to go to law school. Don’t sink money and time into some vague notion that a law degree may somehow help your MPP-related career aspirations without a clearly established plan on exactly what you hope to do with it.

Also, the LSAT is nothing like the GRE so don’t automatically assume you could get the LSAT score for your target schools. Even if you do have the numbers, there are really no guarantees when it comes to T14 admissions (and especially not for a school like Harvard).

The primary reasons why I'm considering law are using it 1) to take care of family life

Taking on massive amounts of debt is a terrible choice if you want to take care of a family. Unless you intend to go into BigLaw (which you’ve stated you don’t want), the paycheck for a legal job isn’t going to be anything close to $160k and you’ll have debts to pay off. If you do take BigLaw, then you’ll have money but your family will never see you. Even if you end up in an $80-90k/yr legal position, the real question you should be asking isn’t “how much will I make” but rather “do I want to be a lawyer?”

You would be better off just taking a lower-paying MPP job without the debt (and, hopefully, with greater job satisfaction) if your interest is primarily public sector policy work.

and 2) as an avenue into constitutional/international/human rights law and related politics.

Constitutional law isn’t really a practice area. International law, also, is only really a practice area to the extent that you tack it on to some other field of law. Human rights law is largely a unicorn position (only a handful of positions exist and you’re not going to get one right out of school)- you’d be better off working for an NGO of some sort (likely in a non-legal capacity) if that’s really what motivates you. As for politics, yes a law degree from a T14 sure wouldn’t hurt, but it’s hardly a requirement or a sound justification for the three years of stress and the debt you’d take on in law school.

Granted, the types of positions you’ve mentioned probably aren’t going to be easy to get as an MPP grad either, but at least you won’t have six figures of debt following you around. That opens up a lot of flexibility, which is worth its weight in gold. For the type of positions you’re looking for, a JD offers only very marginal utility at best and certainly not enough to even remotely justify the time/money/effort. Even Georgetown isn’t a justifiable use of your time or money based on your goals.

However, as hard as it is for me to believe, the scenarios I've worked out have made it seem like T14 law programs have limited marginal benefit. Anyone have any input on these scenarios?

T14 programs absolutely have limited marginal benefit if your end goal isn’t to be a lawyer. It sounds like your field of interest is more closely aligned with your MPP. Your school’s MPP program is top-notch and you’re not going to have any debt; that’s awesome and you’ll be in a pretty good position at graduation. Don’t ruin it by going to law school for no reason.

Cow did a really good job of the points I think you should really think about, especially the bolded. So good that I don't think I have much to add except that if you want to do PI work, GULC does have PILS. It's a public interest scholars program which provides its scholars with money as well as networking. I don't know much about it, but my friend is in it and she seems to really like it. It only accepts a limited amount of people (I think less than 10, around 6 or something every year). But seriously though, if you don't want to be a lawyer and don't have money to freely spend, then don't go to law school.