Is it possible to actually use law to improve the world? Passionate 0L PLEASE HELP! Forum

[MyNameIsntJames]

Ok, so let me explain why I ask this. PLEASE READ!!!: I know this is kind of lengthy but its worth the read. I'm very passionate about this issue and this is the only place I know where I can find some really smart, honest and candid professionals who will tell me what it is and really guide me. I'm humbly asking for your help because this issue has been pressing on my heart for a long time now. If you don't want to read all of it then just scroll down to the Main Point/Question paragraph.

Background:

I'm an African American guy from an urban area and I've seen the effects of poverty, institutionalized racism, etc. Lately we've been reading in the news about activist groups like 'black lives matter' and such that have been trying to draw public attention to the perceived injustice of police officers not being charged for the killing of unarmed African American men. At first, I was really on board with the movement. But then I thought, "Is this where we should be focusing our efforts?" Regardless of your opinion on African Americans, racism or whatever, its an undeniable fact that African American men are given disproportionately larger sentences than their white counterparts for comparable crimes. This is thoroughly and empirically supported by research. Its also true that once you're convicted of a felony, you're pretty much screwed. You can't vote, leave the country and good luck ever getting a decent career in anything because you'll auto-flunk any background check. I also thought about how black men sometimes receive a ridiculous amount of years for the crimes they commit. I believe that crime deserve punishment, but some of the sentences that are handed out to minorities are outrageous. So I thought to myself "black lives matter should be focusing on trying to actually make the justice system itself more fair".


Then I thought what can I do? The obvious first answer was "become a public defender!" But then I talked to a few and they told me about their case load. One guy in particular that I talked to was so passionate about his job and defending his clients. He told me about how much he really didn't like the State's Attorneys and how much he believed his clients deserved appropriate defense. But then he picked up a huge stack of manila folders and said, "See this? These are the new cases that I just got today. I wish I could look at these cases more, but I just don't have the time."

Why:

Then I had my own experience with a public defender. In my state, anyone can file charges against anyone, with or without a police report, solid evidence or whatever. A roommate had decided to press a charge against me out of spite and revenge. Initially I thought, "no big deal, this is obviously frivolous and it should go away immediately." But it didn't. I called a couple private attorneys and they told me they would charge me no less than $3,000 and as a broke college student I didn't have anywhere near that much money. So I got a public defender. I had a preliminary hearing scheduled and the PD's office told me "you don't need to go to that hearing it isn't important. We'll just waive it and send you to trial." That felt a little strange to me, but I figured fuck it. Later I read that preliminary hearings are where charges can actually be dismissed if a judge determines that there isn't any probable cause. I was so angry because I realized that if my assigned attorney actually did their due diligence, then this could have completed avoided a trial. Nonetheless, it was already waived and the court date set. I had two roommates who knew this charge was wrong and bogus and agreed to come to court to testify none of the alleged events happened. I tried to call my PD and never got a response. I went up to the office and could never get in contact with him. He was either in court or went home early. I was stressed because I thought, "How is this justice? I can't even call up witnesses to defend me. No one is even speaking with me about my case and the guy whose supposed to be defending me doesn't even know who I am, what I look like and probably won't even review the whole thing until the morning of/night before." It felt like an unfair betrayal by the justice system and I knew if I had a private lawyer this would have all been avoided.


Luckily, the case was nol prossed and I went on with my life. But it left me thinking...how many other people were in my position with more serious charges? Folks who didn't understand the legal process or have the resources to understand what the hell was even going on? I remember walking in the court room seeing so many people dressed in street clothes and someone asked me, "Why do you have on a suit?" I was dumbfounded. These folks really didn't know that courtroom appearance could help them out. And that was because no one told them and no one cared. From that point I was dead set on helping these people somehow. I know that being a public defender isn't the way. I remember being in court and seeing some of the PDs actually having to make opening/closing statements etc., and they were terrible. I thought to myself, "How the hell can a barred attorney be this incompetent at defending someone?" And that's not a slam on Public Defenders, because some of them are extremely intelligent and do their job as well as any barred attorney could do.

Main Point/Question:

So my question is: Is it possible to get a JD/MBA and maybe work BigLaw for like 5 years and save up enough money to start my own foundation dedicated to helping people in legal trouble like this? I figure the MBA would grant me enough business acumen to intuitively know how to set up and run such an organization without going broke. I want to feature a service that offers legal advice and some pro-bono lawyers, all who willingly are salaried at around $45-55k who just want to help people. Something that's oriented and geared around actually guiding people through the legal process, understanding what happened and really giving them the best result possible. Is this realistic? I really want to help people in these positions, especially my fellow black folk because we really need it. And I feel that a judge will look at some of my friends I grew up with and write them off as a 'thug' just by their appearance. Perhaps in the future I would expand the program to include career resources and further counseling so that people can continue to build themselves, improve their lives and stay out of trouble in the long-run.


I know this is a ridiculously long ass post, but I just couldn't make it any shorter than this. I'm very very very passionate about this and if anyone out there who took the time to read this could just please give me some advice or guidance on this matter it would be very appreciated. I just want to really help people in a greater way than what a public defender can do.

[A. Nony Mouse]

How would your foundation be different from current legal aid or public defender programs?

[MyNameIsntJames]

How would your foundation be different from current legal aid or public defender programs?

It wouldn't be government run and the motives behind it would be different. I'm not familiar with current legal aid programs, but I know that most public defenders are sort of working in conjunction with the court and the State's Attorneys to try to resolve the matter in the quickest way possible and move it through the dockets, rather than pursuing the course of action that will lead to the greatest outcome for the defendant.

We would also be a lot more engaged with the defendants than Public Defenders are. Generally, public defenders don't really meet face to face with their clients until the day of the trial or preliminary hearing and usually that interaction is brief. I want people to feel and know that they're actually being guided through the process instead of just thrown into some streamlined, mechanical system that just churns out results and doesn't care from there. More or less, I want to provide the private lawyer experience for the public defender cost. But that's why this has to be a non-profit foundation because we'll more or less have to run on ourselves. I have no idea how I would fund this project at this point, but hopefully I can build enough connections and willing philanthropists, investors and good-hearted lawyers to where this can become a reality in some way.

There probably are other legal aid programs that offer similar services, but it can never hurt to have more right? I'm not necessarily looking to innovate anything. I just want to contribute to society through law in an independent fashion that is separate from the government. Perhaps we take the load off the local PD office and those guys a little bit and it allows the system to run more cohesively as a whole on the defendant side of things.

[Foghornleghorn]

Yeah these already exist. Good luck fundraising.

So my question is: Is it possible to get a JD/MBA and maybe work BigLaw for like 5 years and save up enough money to start my own foundation dedicated to helping people in legal trouble like this? I figure the MBA would grant me enough business acumen to intuitively know how to set up and run such an organization without going broke.

You have wildly mismanaged expectations about the purpose of an MBA program.

[MyNameIsntJames]

Yeah these already exist. Good luck fundraising.

So my question is: Is it possible to get a JD/MBA and maybe work BigLaw for like 5 years and save up enough money to start my own foundation dedicated to helping people in legal trouble like this? I figure the MBA would grant me enough business acumen to intuitively know how to set up and run such an organization without going broke.

You have wildly mismanaged expectations about the purpose of an MBA program.

This wouldn't be the exclusive purpose of an MBA, but running a non-profit is literally no different than running a business. Are you telling me that an MBA serves no purpose for those wishing to start businesses? If so, then perhaps I'm not the one who has 'wildly mismanaged' expectations lmao.



Edit: "Yeah those already exist."

Good! I'm not trying to do something groundbreaking or never before accomplished by a person. I'm sure there are programs like this out there. I'm asking if its feasible for me to create one of my own using this path. I'm sure there are already leukemia foundations for sick children, but it damn sure wouldn't hurt if people decided to set up similar organizations. Every charity/organization has its limits and that unfortunately results in people being turned away or rejected. Hopefully, my organization can reach to an even wider margin of folks that haven't received help yet. We need to stop looking at everything through such a narrow, competitive 'I gotta be the first/best to do _______!' scope.

[psu2016]

How would your foundation be different from current legal aid or public defender programs?

We would also be a lot more engaged with the defendants than Public Defenders are. Generally, public defenders don't really meet face to face with their clients until the day of the trial or preliminary hearing and usually that interaction is brief. I want people to feel and know that they're actually being guided through the process instead of just thrown into some streamlined, mechanical system that just churns out results and doesn't care from there.

A good start for this little pipe dream would perhaps be not shitting on the entire industry who will be your biggest allies and mentors.

[MyNameIsntJames]

How would your foundation be different from current legal aid or public defender programs?

We would also be a lot more engaged with the defendants than Public Defenders are. Generally, public defenders don't really meet face to face with their clients until the day of the trial or preliminary hearing and usually that interaction is brief. I want people to feel and know that they're actually being guided through the process instead of just thrown into some streamlined, mechanical system that just churns out results and doesn't care from there.

A good start for this little pipe dream would perhaps be not shitting on the entire industry who will be your biggest allies and mentors.

Go be a dumbass troll somewhere else. This is actually a serious thread.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think psu2016 has a real point, though.

How would your foundation be different from current legal aid or public defender programs?

It wouldn't be government run and the motives behind it would be different. I'm not familiar with current legal aid programs, but I know that most public defenders are sort of working in conjunction with the court and the State's Attorneys to try to resolve the matter in the quickest way possible and move it through the dockets, rather than pursuing the course of action that will lead to the greatest outcome for the defendant.

I think this is kind of unfair to public defenders, though. It's really hard to evaluate this from the outside when you're not legally trained (which I realize is part of the problem, but is also unavoidable unless you want defendants to be able to get a JD to deal with the legal system). What looks like working with the court and SAs often *is* pursuing the course of action that will lead to the greatest outcome for the defendant. Our legal system is adversarial, sure, but that doesn't mean that an attorney who fights the prosecutor at every turn is really going to get the best outcome. Part of the problem is that what a defendant wants, emotionally, isn't always what gets the best results, objectively, and I'm not sure the problems inherent in negotiating that tension would go away if you're in a non-profit rather than a PD.

We would also be a lot more engaged with the defendants than Public Defenders are. Generally, public defenders don't really meet face to face with their clients until the day of the trial or preliminary hearing and usually that interaction is brief. I want people to feel and know that they're actually being guided through the process instead of just thrown into some streamlined, mechanical system that just churns out results and doesn't care from there. More or less, I want to provide the private lawyer experience for the public defender cost. But that's why this has to be a non-profit foundation because we'll more or less have to run on ourselves. I have no idea how I would fund this project at this point, but hopefully I can build enough connections and willing philanthropists, investors and good-hearted lawyers to where this can become a reality in some way.

My first question is, when you say "generally" above, do you actually mean generally or do you mean based on your experience? And meeting someone for the first time at preliminary hearing is very very different from meeting them for the first time at trial.

I guess my question really is, how logistically will you ensure that the structural things that lead PDs to act in a certain way won't apply to your foundation as well? Will you have strict limits on caseloads? How will you determine who gets served, in that case? Will you be able to change how the court/state's attorneys approach cases?

And why do you think that private lawyers are better? There's an argument that PDs don't have the kind of financial motives that private attorneys have, so they can actually offer better assistance. Private attorneys depend on running up the hours worked and charging their clients for that. You don't have that economic factor when the government provides your salary.

There probably are other legal aid programs that offer similar services, but it can never hurt to have more right? I'm not necessarily looking to innovate anything. I just want to contribute to society through law in an independent fashion that is separate from the government. Perhaps we take the load off the local PD office and those guys a little bit and it allows the system to run more cohesively as a whole on the defendant side of things.

To be clear, I don't mean to suggest PDs aren't overburdened (they clearly are) or that there isn't any need for more low-cost legal services, so I'm not trying to say you shouldn't do this. I just think you need to think a little more about why the system is how it is and what you could really do to get outside that system. One example I know of that sounds a little like what you're interested in is http://openlegalservices.org/. (I agree with the skepticism about the value of an MBA, though.) And frankly if this is what you're really interested in, I think you'd be much better served working as PD for a number of years in whatever region you want to serve, to see the criminal justice system there from the inside and best figure out how to address the problems you see. Big law isn't going to give you relevant experience and I really don't think just saving up for 5 years of biglaw is going to enable you to fund a program - you will need to work on fundraising and getting donors and regular income streams, rather than just starting with your own nest egg as capital.

[psu2016]

How would your foundation be different from current legal aid or public defender programs?

We would also be a lot more engaged with the defendants than Public Defenders are. Generally, public defenders don't really meet face to face with their clients until the day of the trial or preliminary hearing and usually that interaction is brief. I want people to feel and know that they're actually being guided through the process instead of just thrown into some streamlined, mechanical system that just churns out results and doesn't care from there.

A good start for this little pipe dream would perhaps be not shitting on the entire industry who will be your biggest allies and mentors.

Go be a dumbass troll somewhere else. This is actually a serious thread.

Uh, I wasn't trolling. Unlike you, 0L, I have worked in a number of PDs offices and have respect for the people who work there. You had a bad experience, apparently, but your attitude isn't going to help you make the connections that even you, most passionate one, are going to need to make your dream a reality. Your inability to take criticism isn't going to help you, either.

[cavalier1138]

How would your foundation be different from current legal aid or public defender programs?

We would also be a lot more engaged with the defendants than Public Defenders are. Generally, public defenders don't really meet face to face with their clients until the day of the trial or preliminary hearing and usually that interaction is brief. I want people to feel and know that they're actually being guided through the process instead of just thrown into some streamlined, mechanical system that just churns out results and doesn't care from there.

A good start for this little pipe dream would perhaps be not shitting on the entire industry who will be your biggest allies and mentors.

Go be a dumbass troll somewhere else. This is actually a serious thread.

Yeah, as mentioned, you need to spend some time actually working with PDs instead of being one of their clients. You have absolutely no idea of why your PD conducted your case the way they did. But regardless of how they handled it, if you want to start a foundation like the type you mentioned, you (like everyone else doing the exact same thing) will be working closely with PDs and legal aid offices, because they're the first line of defense for indigent clients.

So if you get nothing else out of this thread, realize that going to law school will likely inform you about why PDs don't waste much time educating their clients about the ins and outs of the American legal system (hint: it's really complicated, and they're overworked) and spend more time actually working for their clients.

[Clyde Frog]

Go to Akron Law and make a difference on the lazy river

[rpupkin]

This wouldn't be the exclusive purpose of an MBA, but running a non-profit is literally no different than running a business.

If you want to improve the world, start using the word "literally" correctly.

Oh, and even if you meant "figuratively," you're still wrong.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Go to Akron Law and make a difference on the lazy river

Okay, this actually is trolling.

[Foghornleghorn]

Yeah these already exist. Good luck fundraising.

This wouldn't be the exclusive purpose of an MBA, but running a non-profit is literally no different than running a business

This is false.

1) Non-profits are typically 501 (c) corps. They are subject to an entirely different tax compliance regime.

2) While startups do engage in fund-raising, they go through a progression of family /angel investors / VC / PE in multiple stages. The impetus for subsequent iterations of investment centers on a proof-of-concept (i.e. the widget being sold is profitable and the target needs growth equity or the firm is a tech service that has massive growth/ network potential and needs additional funding to continue that trend).

By contrast, you're trying to start a non-profit that has no long-term payoff (financially speaking). Hiring five attorneys will cost somewhere north of $200,000 per year. By contrast, your potential clients will be on food stamps. Subsequently, you will be joining millions of other philanthropic organizations in competing for cash annually.

Who is the donor going to pick, the organization that helps the poor children with cancer, or the organization who helps acquit known gang affiliates?

Yes, that is not a fair characterization. But, you'd be lying to yourself if you don't think that stream of thought runs through people's minds when they look to make donations.

But, I forgot. You're getting into Harvard and going to be slaying massive amounts of babeage. You won't be able to see your PD dreams through the sweaty mass of bottles and models.

[psu2016]

Yeah these already exist. Good luck fundraising.

This wouldn't be the exclusive purpose of an MBA, but running a non-profit is literally no different than running a business

This is false.

1) Non-profits are typically 501 (c) corps. They are subject to an entirely different tax compliance regime.

2) While startups do engage in fund-raising, they go through a progression of family /angel investors / VC / PE in multiple stages. The impetus for subsequent iterations of investment centers on a proof-of-concept (i.e. the widget being sold is profitable and the target needs growth equity or the firm is a tech service that has massive growth/ network potential and needs additional funding to continue that trend).

By contrast, you're trying to start a non-profit that has no long-term payoff (financially speaking). Hiring five attorneys will cost somewhere north of $200,000 per year. By contrast, your potential clients will be on food stamps. Subsequently, you will be joining millions of other philanthropic organizations in competing for cash annually.

Who is the donor going to pick, the organization that helps the poor children with cancer, or the organization who helps acquit known gang affiliates?

Yes, that is not a fair characterization. But, you'd be lying to yourself if you don't think that stream of thought runs through people's minds when they look to make donations.

But, I forgot. You're getting into Harvard and going to be slaying massive amounts of babeage. You won't be able to see your PD dreams through the sweaty mass of bottles and models.

Quit trolling the op. This is a serious thread and he already knows everything anyway.

[Foghornleghorn]

How will people know he is the messiah if he can't shun the nonbelievers

[Clyde Frog]

Go to Akron Law and make a difference on the lazy river

Okay, this actually is trolling.

[White Dwarf]

You'd be in the position of asking donors to fund your outfit instead of other, more established, more connected organizations like this that already exist in every major city. And if you want to give every client personalized care like that, you're not going to be able to handle many cases.

It's not clear from your post if you would just run the organization, or if you would actually be a practicing defense attorney. If the latter, 5 years of big law is not going to prepare you in the least for indigent criminal defense. If the former, then you have the added problem of trying to convince donors to pay you a salary to be the "CEO" of a 3 or 4 attorney aid organization.

If you're really serious about this kind of work (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, in spite of your post history), you'd be much better off trying to work for a top-flight PD service (ex. the Bronx Defenders) than you would striking out on your own.

[stoopkid13]

Running a non profit is definitely different than running a business, but that doesn't mean an MBA will be wasted. I think most MBA programs offer courses or even concentrations in non-profit management.

Probably not worth the tuition though.

[Nachoo2019]

Go to Akron Law and make a difference on the lazy river

Okay, this actually is trolling.

But seriously though. Someone with this kind of posting history BELONGS AT AKRON

Just look at that river. So much potential.

[jnwa]

Go to Akron Law and make a difference on the lazy river

Okay, this actually is trolling.

But seriously though. Someone with this kind of posting history BELONGS AT AKRON

Just look at that river. So much potential.

Looks like a lot of activity going on in that river...definitely not lazy

[jnwa]

ALSO OP you already admitted that youre not innovating in the space so rather than spend a bunch of money funding your unnecessary jd/mba you can just donate that plus whatever your biglaw earnings are to one of the organizations that already does this work.

[PeanutsNJam]

But, I forgot. You're getting into Harvard and going to be slaying massive amounts of babeage. You won't be able to see your PD dreams through the sweaty mass of bottles and models.

[pmcd88]

You'd be in the position of asking donors to fund your outfit instead of other, more established, more connected organizations like this that already exist in every major city. And if you want to give every client personalized care like that, you're not going to be able to handle many cases.

It's not clear from your post if you would just run the organization, or if you would actually be a practicing defense attorney. If the latter, 5 years of big law is not going to prepare you in the least for indigent criminal defense. If the former, then you have the added problem of trying to convince donors to pay you a salary to be the "CEO" of a 3 or 4 attorney aid organization.

If you're really serious about this kind of work (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, in spite of your post history), you'd be much better off trying to work for a top-flight PD service (ex. the Bronx Defenders) than you would striking out on your own.

⬆This. As an African American male, I understand where you are coming from. But I do not know if being in big law will prepare you for this. You would have to be very strategic in law school, go to a t14 that has the Innocence project and then get hired at a law firm that may let you continue some of your cases pro bono. Then maybe after five years you could have the criminal law experience to go out on your own but that is still ignoring all of the logistical issues before. If your goal is to have personal one on one interactions with clients in poverty but not serve the masses like public defenders, then you would almost be better off trying to stick with a large firm with a commitment to pro bono work.

[Tanicius]

OP, the solution to the pressure PDs have to push cases through is to fund those very same PD offices so that they can hire more lawyers and reduce their caseload. New Orleans Public Defender has some of the most qualified lawyers in the country working for them, among them a Harvard Law Review EIC. But their caseload is crushing, so they triage. Meanwhile, in my office, we've actually got it fairly cushy from the caseload perspective, and yet we spend a ton of time getting buddy-buddy with the prosecutor... because it works, and it gets our clients what they want. And if they want a trial, because we have enough time to prep the case effectively, the client will get their trial.