LLM - does it really make a difference? Forum

[Troianii]

How much of a difference does an LLM make? I'm curious in two regards. First, does it really make you that much more competitive? Second, does it increase how much you (generally) will be paid?

How do these improve your job prospects compared to other degrees, like an MBA?

[Aeon]

Unless the LL.M. is in tax, it usually does not make a big difference (and even then, it ordinarily will not add as much value as getting a J.D. from a good school with good grades). There are LL.M.s in a variety of areas, and they might be useful on the margins: if an employer is looking at two otherwise identical candidates, an LL.M. in the relevant practice area may be what gets one of the candidates the job. But this marginal benefit should be weighed against the costs, both in actual tuition and living expenses, and in opportunity costs.

The LL.M. may help you get your foot in the door, but it will very rarely give you a salary boost. Some government agencies may advance you up by one GS level if you have an LL.M. But most firms will not give you credit for the year you spent studying, so you'll be delayed by one class year.

To the extent that either degree improves your job prospects--which is far from certain--an LL.M. gives you a boost in applying for certain jobs (typically tax or government), which are different from those for which the MBA might give you an advantage (in-house at companies, investment banks, some firms).

[Troianii]

Unless the LL.M. is in tax, it usually does not make a big difference (and even then, it ordinarily will not add as much value as getting a J.D. from a good school with good grades). There are LL.M.s in a variety of areas, and they might be useful on the margins: if an employer is looking at two otherwise identical candidates, an LL.M. in the relevant practice area may be what gets one of the candidates the job. But this marginal benefit should be weighed against the costs, both in actual tuition and living expenses, and in opportunity costs.

The LL.M. may help you get your foot in the door, but it will very rarely give you a salary boost. Some government agencies may advance you up by one GS level if you have an LL.M. But most firms will not give you credit for the year you spent studying, so you'll be delayed by one class year.

To the extent that either degree improves your job prospects--which is far from certain--an LL.M. gives you a boost in applying for certain jobs (typically tax or government), which are different from those for which the MBA might give you an advantage (in-house at companies, investment banks, some firms).

Thanks for the advice. The reason why I'm asking is because I was going to use the GI Bill (5 semesters of benefits remaining) to cover the gap at law school (so that it would ultimately be free), but I got a full ride at a 2nd tier school (and didn't get into any top 20 schools) so I figured it made sense to take the full ride and use the gi bill for further education. I thought an LLM was the way to go, but I guess not.

Though wouldn't an LLM help with international law? Again I'm a 0L and asking these Qs for a reason but I heard that JDs aren't internationally recognized but LLMs are.

[postard]

That just means that when foreign lawyers don't have JDs, they take LLMs in the US to naturalize their qualifications.

[Troianii]

That just means that when foreign lawyers don't have JDs, they take LLMs in the US to naturalize their qualifications.

ah. That makes a lot more sense.

[Johann]

LLMs are very important in Europe. Almost all European lawyers have an LLM or LLM equivalent.
Many foreign trained lawyers get LLMs in the US to either (1) become eligible for the bar or (2) get further qualifications before they go back to Europe. But almost every practicing lawyer in Europe will have an LLM or equivalent because they dont view legal education complete until much more education than we in the US do.

For US attorneys, Tax LLMs are very useful if you want to do tax. Other LLMs are not useful at all with a few narrow exceptions.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

LLMs are very important in Europe. Almost all European lawyers have an LLM or LLM equivalent.
Many foreign trained lawyers get LLMs in the US to either (1) become eligible for the bar or (2) get further qualifications before they go back to Europe. But almost every practicing lawyer in Europe will have an LLM or equivalent because they dont view legal education complete until much more education than we in the US do.

For US attorneys, Tax LLMs are very useful if you want to do tax. Other LLMs are not useful at all with a few narrow exceptions.

Isn't the market for Tax LLMs pretty rough now?

I tried to look into this as this is still an option I am considering, I just have found that becoming a CPA and doing tax gives you better odds of having a job.

[Aeon]

Unless the LL.M. is in tax, it usually does not make a big difference (and even then, it ordinarily will not add as much value as getting a J.D. from a good school with good grades). There are LL.M.s in a variety of areas, and they might be useful on the margins: if an employer is looking at two otherwise identical candidates, an LL.M. in the relevant practice area may be what gets one of the candidates the job. But this marginal benefit should be weighed against the costs, both in actual tuition and living expenses, and in opportunity costs.

The LL.M. may help you get your foot in the door, but it will very rarely give you a salary boost. Some government agencies may advance you up by one GS level if you have an LL.M. But most firms will not give you credit for the year you spent studying, so you'll be delayed by one class year.

To the extent that either degree improves your job prospects--which is far from certain--an LL.M. gives you a boost in applying for certain jobs (typically tax or government), which are different from those for which the MBA might give you an advantage (in-house at companies, investment banks, some firms).

Thanks for the advice. The reason why I'm asking is because I was going to use the GI Bill (5 semesters of benefits remaining) to cover the gap at law school (so that it would ultimately be free), but I got a full ride at a 2nd tier school (and didn't get into any top 20 schools) so I figured it made sense to take the full ride and use the gi bill for further education. I thought an LLM was the way to go, but I guess not.

Though wouldn't an LLM help with international law? Again I'm a 0L and asking these Qs for a reason but I heard that JDs aren't internationally recognized but LLMs are.

If the costs of the LL.M. would be covered, it's not necessarily a bad proposition, but unless you're going for a tax LL.M., you should be prepared to explain to prospective employers your compelling reasons for going the LL.M. route. Whether rightly or wrongly, many will assume that the reason you went for the advanced degree was because you were unable to find a job out of your J.D. program. Tax LL.M.s are somewhat different, because they are considered standard in the field, but even then, you'll probably field questions about why you're interested in tax, etc.

Depending on your interests and career goals, a non-tax LL.M., especially if paid for with GI Bill benefits, might be a decent route to take. For example, Georgetown offers a national security law LL.M., which may be helpful both for the substantive knowledge you'd gain and the connections you could make, if you want to pursue certain federal employment.

International law as such doesn't usually exist, save for in limited cases, such as with organizations like the UN, EU, NATO, OECD, etc. Most of the international work that lawyers do is cross-border transactions, which, while technically international, ordinarily involves only the domestic law of various countries (though there may be some treaty work involved in certain matters). Firms and clients will value your expertise with United States law, and not necessarily the law of nations.

[Johann]

LLMs are very important in Europe. Almost all European lawyers have an LLM or LLM equivalent.
Many foreign trained lawyers get LLMs in the US to either (1) become eligible for the bar or (2) get further qualifications before they go back to Europe. But almost every practicing lawyer in Europe will have an LLM or equivalent because they dont view legal education complete until much more education than we in the US do.

For US attorneys, Tax LLMs are very useful if you want to do tax. Other LLMs are not useful at all with a few narrow exceptions.

Isn't the market for Tax LLMs pretty rough now?

I tried to look into this as this is still an option I am considering, I just have found that becoming a CPA and doing tax gives you better odds of having a job.

sure accountants probably have a better chance and odds of getting a job than say someone with a law degree from a generic T50 and LLM from Florida/Georgetown. BUT, the salary payouts are better for the LLM. It's a little bit riskier. Obviously, people with tax backgrounds at T14 and any school+NYU Tax LLM will probably have a better go than any CPAs.

The caveat is, tax LLMs are primarily needed in 2 cities in the US. So, if you dont want to live in NYC or SF/PA, the job options are much more limited. I think tax LLMs are still a good investment today though. For someone who has n't started law school yet, in 4 years, that might be a different story.

[Aeon]

LLMs are very important in Europe. Almost all European lawyers have an LLM or LLM equivalent.
Many foreign trained lawyers get LLMs in the US to either (1) become eligible for the bar or (2) get further qualifications before they go back to Europe. But almost every practicing lawyer in Europe will have an LLM or equivalent because they dont view legal education complete until much more education than we in the US do.

For US attorneys, Tax LLMs are very useful if you want to do tax. Other LLMs are not useful at all with a few narrow exceptions.

I'd just add that the reason why many European lawyers get LL.M.s is because the basic professional qualification necessary to practice law over there is an undergraduate degree, so many do go on to pursue higher qualifications.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

LLMs are very important in Europe. Almost all European lawyers have an LLM or LLM equivalent.
Many foreign trained lawyers get LLMs in the US to either (1) become eligible for the bar or (2) get further qualifications before they go back to Europe. But almost every practicing lawyer in Europe will have an LLM or equivalent because they dont view legal education complete until much more education than we in the US do.

For US attorneys, Tax LLMs are very useful if you want to do tax. Other LLMs are not useful at all with a few narrow exceptions.

Isn't the market for Tax LLMs pretty rough now?

I tried to look into this as this is still an option I am considering, I just have found that becoming a CPA and doing tax gives you better odds of having a job.

sure accountants probably have a better chance and odds of getting a job than say someone with a law degree from a generic T50 and LLM from Florida/Georgetown. BUT, the salary payouts are better for the LLM. It's a little bit riskier. Obviously, people with tax backgrounds at T14 and any school+NYU Tax LLM will probably have a better go than any CPAs.

The caveat is, tax LLMs are primarily needed in 2 cities in the US. So, if you dont want to live in NYC or SF/PA, the job options are much more limited. I think tax LLMs are still a good investment today though. For someone who has n't started law school yet, in 4 years, that might be a different story.

Yeah. That is why I am working my Accounting job taking worthless childish undergrad Accounting classes in order to sit for the CPA. I didn't want to take the risk up front that the law degree requires.Plus, I have no debt.

At this point; however, I think it might have been worth it just to not have to work here and deal with the constant IT issues, broken systems, disingenuious bosses etc.

[Johann]

At this point; however, I think it might have been worth it just to not have to work here and deal with the constant IT issues, broken systems, disingenuious bosses etc.

this sort of bs exists everywhere. network issues dont really exist at the firm office but when youre home on a saturday night and a partner wants something from the firm server, citrix issues can be a pain in the ass.

[asdfdfdfadfas]

At this point; however, I think it might have been worth it just to not have to work here and deal with the constant IT issues, broken systems, disingenuious bosses etc.

this sort of bs exists everywhere. network issues dont really exist at the firm office but when youre home on a saturday night and a partner wants something from the firm server, citrix issues can be a pain in the ass.

Yeah I use to use Citrixtoo but I was making a little over half of what you probably make. The problem is dealing with the same type of BS but not making the money you are, granted I had no debt. If I could weasle my way into law school with no debt I'd take biglaw in a happy heartbeat.

I still may try for University of Washington after I work as a tax accountant for a bit if I still think it's necessary/ would serve some purpose. I want to live in the PNW for dat work life balance, work 70 hour weeks and on the weekend I am gone to Whistler or hiking or fishing or whatever.

Anyways, sorry for taking this thread in a completely different direction.

I think the LLM is beneficial if you go TAX, I just have heard issues of finding jobs.

[Troianii]

Unless the LL.M. is in tax, it usually does not make a big difference (and even then, it ordinarily will not add as much value as getting a J.D. from a good school with good grades). There are LL.M.s in a variety of areas, and they might be useful on the margins: if an employer is looking at two otherwise identical candidates, an LL.M. in the relevant practice area may be what gets one of the candidates the job. But this marginal benefit should be weighed against the costs, both in actual tuition and living expenses, and in opportunity costs.

The LL.M. may help you get your foot in the door, but it will very rarely give you a salary boost. Some government agencies may advance you up by one GS level if you have an LL.M. But most firms will not give you credit for the year you spent studying, so you'll be delayed by one class year.

To the extent that either degree improves your job prospects--which is far from certain--an LL.M. gives you a boost in applying for certain jobs (typically tax or government), which are different from those for which the MBA might give you an advantage (in-house at companies, investment banks, some firms).

Thanks for the advice. The reason why I'm asking is because I was going to use the GI Bill (5 semesters of benefits remaining) to cover the gap at law school (so that it would ultimately be free), but I got a full ride at a 2nd tier school (and didn't get into any top 20 schools) so I figured it made sense to take the full ride and use the gi bill for further education. I thought an LLM was the way to go, but I guess not.

Though wouldn't an LLM help with international law? Again I'm a 0L and asking these Qs for a reason but I heard that JDs aren't internationally recognized but LLMs are.

If the costs of the LL.M. would be covered, it's not necessarily a bad proposition, but unless you're going for a tax LL.M., you should be prepared to explain to prospective employers your compelling reasons for going the LL.M. route. Whether rightly or wrongly, many will assume that the reason you went for the advanced degree was because you were unable to find a job out of your J.D. program. Tax LL.M.s are somewhat different, because they are considered standard in the field, but even then, you'll probably field questions about why you're interested in tax, etc.

Depending on your interests and career goals, a non-tax LL.M., especially if paid for with GI Bill benefits, might be a decent route to take. For example, Georgetown offers a national security law LL.M., which may be helpful both for the substantive knowledge you'd gain and the connections you could make, if you want to pursue certain federal employment.

International law as such doesn't usually exist, save for in limited cases, such as with organizations like the UN, EU, NATO, OECD, etc. Most of the international work that lawyers do is cross-border transactions, which, while technically international, ordinarily involves only the domestic law of various countries (though there may be some treaty work involved in certain matters). Firms and clients will value your expertise with United States law, and not necessarily the law of nations.

Thanks all for the advice. Aeon,I found yours particularly on point and really appreciate it.

I'm looking at applying for the joint jd/mba program at my school which would take 3.5yrs. I would be interested in an LLM such as one you mentioned, but I haven't heard anything about how competitive LLM programs are. Just generally speaking, attending a 2nd tier school for my jd, what do I need to do to be competitive for an llm? Top 20%? Top 10%? I mean that all sounds great, going for an LLM later at a top school (which I think, as you say, would make me more marketable), but I've never looked at how the llm admissions process differs from jd.

[Troianii]

At this point; however, I think it might have been worth it just to not have to work here and deal with the constant IT issues, broken systems, disingenuious bosses etc.

this sort of bs exists everywhere. network issues dont really exist at the firm office but when youre home on a saturday night and a partner wants something from the firm server, citrix issues can be a pain in the ass.

Yeah I use to use Citrixtoo but I was making a little over half of what you probably make. The problem is dealing with the same type of BS but not making the money you are, granted I had no debt. If I could weasle my way into law school with no debt I'd take biglaw in a happy heartbeat.

I still may try for University of Washington after I work as a tax accountant for a bit if I still think it's necessary/ would serve some purpose. I want to live in the PNW for dat work life balance, work 70 hour weeks and on the weekend I am gone to Whistler or hiking or fishing or whatever.

Anyways, sorry for taking this thread in a completely different direction.

I think the LLM is beneficial if you go TAX, I just have heard issues of finding jobs.

Haha don't worry about taking it a different direction. This discussion of tax llm vs accounting was beneficial.

[Aeon]

Thanks all for the advice. Aeon,I found yours particularly on point and really appreciate it.

I'm looking at applying for the joint jd/mba program at my school which would take 3.5yrs. I would be interested in an LLM such as one you mentioned, but I haven't heard anything about how competitive LLM programs are. Just generally speaking, attending a 2nd tier school for my jd, what do I need to do to be competitive for an llm? Top 20%? Top 10%? I mean that all sounds great, going for an LLM later at a top school (which I think, as you say, would make me more marketable), but I've never looked at how the llm admissions process differs from jd.

Happy to help!

Generally speaking, LL.M.s are less competitive than J.D. programs, largely because there are fewer people applying. Grades in your J.D. program are important, but schools might also account for any experience you have and how it may be related to the LL.M. program for which you're applying. I would say top 10% or 20% at a T2 school would make you competitive for many programs.

The joint J.D./MBA isn't a bad option, especially if you want to do something related to corporate law. It helps if you can get the MBA from a prestigious program (many law schools allow you to do a joint degree with another university). However, if you're interested in other areas of law, with a joint law/business degree, you run the risk of appearing overly unfocused.

[Johann]

How much of a difference does an LLM make? I'm curious in two regards. First, does it really make you that much more competitive? Second, does it increase how much you (generally) will be paid?

How do these improve your job prospects compared to other degrees, like an MBA?

My mistake Troian, didn't realize you were OP.

1) Are you a 0L or what? Planning to do an LLM before being a 2L is probably not smart.
2) Have you seen S02 E04 of Pretty Little Liars? It's got some pretty on point advice for what to do, so might be a good place to start.

Feel free to PM me with any and all PLL questions. I guess i'll talk LLM too if you want.

[somethingElse]

How much of a difference does an LLM make? I'm curious in two regards. First, does it really make you that much more competitive? Second, does it increase how much you (generally) will be paid?

How do these improve your job prospects compared to other degrees, like an MBA?

My mistake Troian, didn't realize you were OP.

1) Are you a 0L or what? Planning to do an LLM before being a 2L is probably not smart.
2) Have you seen S02 E04 of Pretty Little Liars? It's got some pretty on point advice for what to do, so might be a good place to start.

Feel free to PM me with any and all PLL questions. I guess i'll talk LLM too if you want.

[treeey86]

I have seen a very unique situation where an experienced mid-senior level lawyer enrolled for an LLM to help switch practice fields.

Think an attorney practicing bankruptcy who wants to go into IP transactions. They enter into one of the top IP LLM programs, get good grades and learn a new area of law they were not practicing before, and then use that as a springboard to apply to firms. I have seen this happen once, and the person in question went to Columbia law school for the LLM.

[Troianii]

Happy to help!

Generally speaking, LL.M.s are less competitive than J.D. programs, largely because there are fewer people applying. Grades in your J.D. program are important, but schools might also account for any experience you have and how it may be related to the LL.M. program for which you're applying. I would say top 10% or 20% at a T2 school would make you competitive for many programs.

Definitely good to know. I hope to to do well enough to get into a top school for the LLM at least but, at a minimum, I feel good about a full ride.

The joint J.D./MBA isn't a bad option, especially if you want to do something related to corporate law. It helps if you can get the MBA from a prestigious program (many law schools allow you to do a joint degree with another university). However, if you're interested in other areas of law, with a joint law/business degree, you run the risk of appearing overly unfocused.

hmmm. I hadn't thought of that much. Do you think this would be a serious issue in the eyes of most potential employers? I see the downside, but... the benefits of adding an MBA just seem to be worth an additional semester of study. But hey, I'm the one asking questions because I'm the one who doesn't know this stuff.

Thanks again!

[Troianii]

I have seen a very unique situation where an experienced mid-senior level lawyer enrolled for an LLM to help switch practice fields.

Think an attorney practicing bankruptcy who wants to go into IP transactions. They enter into one of the top IP LLM programs, get good grades and learn a new area of law they were not practicing before, and then use that as a springboard to apply to firms. I have seen this happen once, and the person in question went to Columbia law school for the LLM.

hmmm. That's something to keep in mind, but I've got something of a time ticker. VA educational benefits are only good for ten years after service end date. By the time I get through law school, that'll leave me just over two years to use them. :/

[Aeon]

hmmm. I hadn't thought of that much. Do you think this would be a serious issue in the eyes of most potential employers? I see the downside, but... the benefits of adding an MBA just seem to be worth an additional semester of study. But hey, I'm the one asking questions because I'm the one who doesn't know this stuff.

Thanks again!

It's as serious an issue as you're able to spin it. Which is to say that it becomes less serious the better your explanation is for why you decided to do the MBA degree concurrently with the J.D. Maximizing GI Bill benefits isn't something I would cite to a potential employer. Wanting to get a better grounding in business concepts, on the other hand, is a good reason.

[Troianii]

hmmm. I hadn't thought of that much. Do you think this would be a serious issue in the eyes of most potential employers? I see the downside, but... the benefits of adding an MBA just seem to be worth an additional semester of study. But hey, I'm the one asking questions because I'm the one who doesn't know this stuff.

Thanks again!

It's as serious an issue as you're able to spin it. Which is to say that it becomes less serious the better your explanation is for why you decided to do the MBA degree concurrently with the J.D. Maximizing GI Bill benefits isn't something I would cite to a potential employer. Wanting to get a better grounding in business concepts, on the other hand, is a good reason.

lol, that's funny, the way you put it, but it makes sense.

Thanks again for the advice!

[Aeon]

hmmm. I hadn't thought of that much. Do you think this would be a serious issue in the eyes of most potential employers? I see the downside, but... the benefits of adding an MBA just seem to be worth an additional semester of study. But hey, I'm the one asking questions because I'm the one who doesn't know this stuff.

Thanks again!

It's as serious an issue as you're able to spin it. Which is to say that it becomes less serious the better your explanation is for why you decided to do the MBA degree concurrently with the J.D. Maximizing GI Bill benefits isn't something I would cite to a potential employer. Wanting to get a better grounding in business concepts, on the other hand, is a good reason.

lol, that's funny, the way you put it, but it makes sense.

Thanks again for the advice!

Sure thing! Good luck.